https://acs-grenade.com/        

Is this useful or a solution in search of a problem?  Any real-world applicability to law enforcement SWAT use?  Is the juice (price) worth the squeeze in your opinion?  Has anybody here come across it or used it?  It is an Israeli made product and has apparently found favor with their police counter-terrorism unit, the Yamam

Many years ago I took a course with Def-Tec to familiarize myself with the use of their riot control munitions and flash bangs.  At the time, I was exporting them to police units in Western Europe.  But other than that I have no real world experience with grenades or their use in CQB. 

Thus I turn to the experts at LF for their opinion.   

Let 'er rip.

 


 

"Be a man of principle. Fight for what you believe in. Keep your word. Live with integrity. Be brave. Believe in something bigger than yourself. Serve your country. Teach. Mentor. Give something back to society. Lead from the front." Major Doug Zembiec, USMC "The Lion of Fallujah" KIA May 11, 2007 RIP Warrior.

 

JOINED: 01/02/03   LOCATION: South Florida, USA

Original Post

We don't use Flash/crash here, but initially I like the looks of the concept.

I going to point out that local teams use two man elements so one can cover while the other one preps and places, then the footage showed two bangs getting rolled in. It makes sense for that.

It appears to have at least two safety motions prior to the pin getting pulled, and the pin is covered, so safety of use seems solid.

When I was still doing the SWAT thing our NFDD deployers were dedicated to that (in theory.) The idea was a dedicated guy to handle the NFDD, carry it, deploy it etc.  In the event of a "no bang" they were to roll out of the stack and dispose of the NFDD once we all made entry.  In terms of how we used bangs back in the day, no, this isn't useful.

However, in a more NFDD aggressive agency, military setting, etc this does look fairly useful especially if you are running the "fight off each others backs" concept.

I don’t have a lot of experience using frags, but I’ve placed a few NFDDs in my time, as such, my opinion is based on a  tactical LE perspective.

Also, when I hear “Used by elite Israeli Commando Special Forces” - or any language to that effect - I tend to be more critical of the item offered. Most of the stuff sold under the auspices of Israeli Tactical gear is absolute shite.

All that being said - I think this is a terrible product.

The deployment of NFDDs is rarely done by a team member acting alone. (I say rarely because I loathe to use absolutes, in my experience, it was never, we always deployed in teams).  Also, in my experience, the deployment of NFDD are almost always done with planning, forethought, and communication with teammates. If you are deploying an NFDD in a LE setting and “seconds count”, you should probably be on your gun. 

My biggest issue with this thing is that once the device is removed from the pouch, you have to toss it. You can not place it back in the pouch because it pulls the pin for you. This is a deal breaker. There have been plenty of times where I have had a NFDD in hand in preparation to deploy, but the tactical situation changed for some reason, and the device needed to be returned to the pouch.

This really does nothing a quality dedicated pouch doesn’t already do.

 

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

High Exposure posted:

 

My biggest issue with this thing is that once the device is removed from the pouch, you have to toss it. You can not place it back in the pouch because it pulls the pin for you. This is a deal breaker. There have been plenty of times where I have had a NFDD in hand in preparation to deploy, but the tactical situation changed for some reason, and the device needed to be returned to the pouch.

 

I had noticed that as well.  I've seen a guy stitch an extra pin underneath the collar of his uniform just to have a spare handy in case he lost the original.

aegis305 posted:
High Exposure posted:

 

My biggest issue with this thing is that once the device is removed from the pouch, you have to toss it. You can not place it back in the pouch because it pulls the pin for you. This is a deal breaker. There have been plenty of times where I have had a NFDD in hand in preparation to deploy, but the tactical situation changed for some reason, and the device needed to be returned to the pouch.

 

I had noticed that as well.  I've seen a guy stitch an extra pin underneath the collar of his uniform just to have a spare handy in case he lost the original.

To jump on with HE, we are also strictly forbidden to try and put a pin back in. Once the pin comes out, the bang is either getting deployed on target or tossed to the side. 

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

What about double bangers and quad bangers?  Or aren't those used anymore?


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

To be clear, we operated under the same SOP as TheTick. You don’t reinsert a pin, ever. Once the pin is pulled, the device is getting placed on target, or someplace under our control, but outside of the direct operating area.

Pulling the pin should be the last step before placing the device. Not the first step.

A lot can happen between getting a NFDD out of a pouch and pulling the pin. 

 

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

Logistical concern:  these appear to be brand-specific in terms of the particular NFDD.  What happens when your agency decides to switch products?  

And I could care less about which Israeli unit is using their product, unless a member of said unit is willing to speak up about why it works for them.

"Absorb what is useful.  Discard what is useless.  Add what is specifically your own." -Bruce Lee

I don't throw too many NFDD's but those things are absolutely useless for M67's. And thats before you even get to the safety clips and the safety pin clips on the new style frags. All of these would have to be disengaged before use in this device and I'm not letting my guys do that. Learn and repeatedly rehearse the frag battle drill and getting them out and on target quickly is not a problem. To me this is just more Israeli crap gear looking for a US market.....

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism."         - Thomas Sowell

"A Republic, if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

 

LOCATION: Jacksonville NC

JOINED:  Feb 2012

     

I don't like the look of them at all. I liked my frags nice and snug, like a bug in a rug. In a tight fitting pouch that secures everything. 

I have no idea of the veracity of this picture, but there are clues. If you look behind his pistol you can see one or two of them mounted back there. 

 

4ADC8E93-8E24-405D-B51D-95F1BE26CCC5

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My NFDD using  days are over, but I'd take a hard pass on that. There is no need for a rapid deployment of a bang IMO, and with the short delay on their fuses not much margin for error if you get a case of fumble fingers 

Location: North Carolina

Hang on, did you guys actually watch the video? The M67 pouch in the video does NOT automatically pull the pin, it just opens up so the guy can grab the grenade, and then it shows him pull the pin manually. The video just shows that it has sort of a “keeper” that the ring fits around to keep it secure while it’s in the pouch.

I like the general concept of how the pouch secures the grenade in a position where it’s ready to grasp in a natural position to prep and throw it. However, from a military perspective, I can’t help but notice that the demonstrations show the pouch mounted all by itself on an wide open side panel of the guy’s body armor. I suspect that in the real world, when the carrier is wedged in between a magazine pouch and a canteen cover, it’s going to be difficult to get your fingers in there to activate the safeties and release the grenade. At first glance, I’d rather have a traditional top loading pouch that I can pull grenade up and out of, rather than try to reach in there between other gear.

Having said all that, I’d be interested in trying one out, but the chancing of me being issued a grenade ever again at this point in my career are pretty slim.

Dave

I just watched the video again. It appears the pin is affixed and by pulling it  (the grenade) away it deploys. The guys in that video are not manually pulling the pin, that is absolutely  a two handed operation and they clearly aren't doing that. This appears (to me) only slightly better than the anecdotal stories I've read and heard of WWII troops hanging frags on their belts/suspenders by the pin. I'll stay with my hard pass opinion.

Location: North Carolina

Are you watching a different video that I am? Here’s the M67 frag grenade video - you can clearly see the guys in the first 60 seconds of the video deploying from the grenade from the holder, using their left hand to pull the pin manually, and then throwing the grenade. You can even see the first guy pause briefly in one sequence after removing the grenade from the holder, and in the closeup of the grenade in his right hand at the 0.13 mark, the pin is still attached:

https://youtu.be/j5DNbUt9b3M

You must be watching a different video if you’re not seeing that.

I am indeed. The one that autoloads on the website showing bangs and other devices absolutely shows the pin affixed to the pouch/body and one handed deployment with the pin clearly left on the attachment. What you linked is fine, I suppose. What I (and I suspect everyone else opposed saw) was a definite no go for me. Especially with a 1.5 second delay NFDD

Location: North Carolina

I went back and dug beyond the opening video. The NFDD instructional vids clearly show threading the pin into the carrier/pouch, which is what I saw. Frag is different for sure. Big nope for me still, as I am aware of plenty of cases of NFDDs taking hands and fingers. A SWAT cop in my region was killed by one a few years ago when he got the fumble fingers while stowing one in his kit at his home. 

I'll defer on the frag,  since it's been over 30 years since I tossed one, and the "pouches" were still those sewn to the sides of the ammo pouch

Location: North Carolina

Yeah, I wouldn’t be comfortable at all with the flashbang pouch pulling the pin for me (although I’ve never used them personally). I can’t see that video for some reason. I think my iPhone may be preventing it from auto-playing, and the play/pause/rewind buttons on the page don’t work for me.

Dave

If the good Lord above made SWAT specific commandments he'd hand them down to Buck Rogers.  On the tablet would be written somewhere "verily thou shalt not re-pin a hot bang".

This is a hardware solution to a software problem I.E.  internal stack guy got worked up and did not pull pin before deploying NFDD and gets roasted in the AARs.  Somebody with too much time makes an auto pin puller pouch thingy when in realty what needs to happen is to buy a few cases of those sweet baby blue bangs and work some deployments during sim and live CQB runs and scenarios, and not just throw the two on mandated recert days. . .

 

There is a time & place for everything, this pouch too COULD be used if the team is trained appropriately to use it correctly.  Professional results with professional actions.

If a team has a “no repin “ policy on their NFDD’s then they ‘SHOULD’ have a bombtech if not on their team then on standby in the rally area. 

Even in the MIL too many folks are MINIMALLY qualified to employ a hand grenade. A GRENADIER is a skill set. 

Way too many “General Safety” wannabes get involved in adding their perception to grenade safety and add redundant safety to grenades: taping pins down or removing safeties: removing jungle clips. 

There are rumors about the MIL adopting a new safety pin that REQUIRES removal of the bail catchment before pulling the pin. In theory it Could be forcefully removed by pulling but generally the split ring splits instead. 

Its damn near impossible to make grenades idiot-proof though, as idiots are very resourceful...

 

I laugh heartily at the “once the pin is pulled mr grenade is not your friend”. Mr Grenade is NEVER your friend, he tolerates you lugging him around in the hopes that he gets to go BOOM. Whether that’s in your hand or next to a target he doesn’t care!

To put it another way: Mr. Grenade is your 'Buddy'.  And he will Buddy-F_ck the daylights out of you if you LET him, control and use Mr. Grenade, your Buddy, like a PROFESSIONAL at all times.  'Amateurish actions will be rewarded with amateur results'

~Will

 




 

 

   Anybody can blow something up, but to disarm anothers bomb, this is when talent, skill, bravery & LUCK will all determine "Success or Failure".  

 

Location: UTAH              Joined: 2003

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