Recent legal updates in my state list that a "school marshal" (FYI, none in my AO or neighboring ISDs) use frangible ammunition in their handgun (which must be kept in a locked box).

Since I'm the agency rangemaster and "gun nut", 2 people now have asked me about what I would recommend.

 

With steam coming out of my ears, I always lay out the caveats that frang training ammo is normally lousy for antipersonnel use, dedicated frang carry ammo is lousy with regards to adequate penetration and barrier performance, and grotesquely misinformed people shouldn't be allowed to procreate much less pass laws....but the simple fact is these are ostensibly good guys saddled with a stupid law they are trying to obey.

 

Standard JHP ammo wouldn't be considered frangible here, esp. since state law uses the phrase 'disintegrate on impact'. Most definitions I've seen would mean at the VERY least 3 or more pieces. So, we're left with what.....LeHigh, Glaser, et al? I've had pretty lousy luck with the accuracy and consistency of frangible carry loads, not to mention ridiculous cost. Larger caliber is perhaps more appealing in this instance due to larger overall wound cavity, payload, depth of penetration and light-for-caliber projectiles?

 

I understand this is a case of stupidity driving equipment, but I'd still like to give these guys the least crappy of their crappy options. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

Original Post

Ugh. That's a crap sandwich. Have you actually seen the statute that says that? I ask that because sometimes there will be a summary provided for use that does not properly quote or summarize the language and comes out meaning something that is not accurate.

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www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

International Cartridge Company makes a hollow point round. I knew of a company that used it years ago (armored car service, I did some very small scale consulting for them) and it had very good reliability AP/defensive concerns notwithstanding. We use it for steel target training (non HP) on our indoor range and have had no concerns fro a QC standpoint. http://iccammo.com/

 

A gel shoot with it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mpjD8RiI9A

 

Good luck. Hope this helps     

Location: North Carolina

"may be loaded only with frangible

ammunition designed to disintegrate on impact for maximum safety

and minimal danger to others." ---actual text from the bill passed.

 

I like ICC's stuff better than some others, but my only experience is with their stuff in training on steel. I'll forward the links, thanks CW.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

I recently went to a demo of a local company who is doing the frangible stuff.  I was ok with this (even though we do not shoot much steel)....mainly wanted to check their new range facility out anyway.

Then came the duty carry frangible rounds....

Not being as up on the ballistic stuff as a lot of you guys there were some things that about made my head explode.  First of all in the demos they talked about grain weight of their compressed copper powder and tin hollow point round.  About the only weights I can remember off the top of my head were the .223 stuff and I believe it was 42 gr, 45 gr, and 50 gr.  I asked how this would do in a faster 1:7 twist barrel and was advised that they just crank up velocity on the round.....and that is was a longer bullet.

Ok...were definitely loosing me.

Then they pulled out gel blocks that were not the standard ballistic gelatin I had seen used before.  The stuff they were using was much smaller and was not melting.  Cut it out of plastic bags, roughly 8" square and about 2 ft long.  Consistency was much different.

Looking at these rounds hitting the blocks.....

About 2" in it fragmented out and on the .40 cal round a small piece of the back of the bullet approximately 20 grain our so actually did go into the block a ways.

Anyway....my head started to hurt from all the BS being thrown around.  Not sure what wound me up more.....the sales pitch or the number of supposedly knowledgeable trainers who were buying into this crap.

The agency that hosted were decent guys, awesome new range (very impressive) but the ammo demo was utterly.......well you know.

 

R

Evil Looms, Cowboy Up, Kill It, Get Paid.  MHI Handbook

 RIP SPO Sean Thomas Wissink. EOW 02-11-07 Lo there, I see my father Lo there, I see my mother I see my sisters and brothers, the lines of my people back to the beginning. They becon me to join them in the halls of Valhalla. Were the brave shall live forever.

Not advocating their ammo or any of their testing, but if the bullet was really made of copper and tin, wouldn't it be far less dense than lead and therefore rather long for weight.  If so wouldn't it make sense that it would need the fast rate of twist?

 

The gel they used sounds like the stuff that can be melted and reused.  No idea if it's valid for testing bullets as compared with the material ordinarily used. http://clearballistics.com/instructions/

This is our purpose: to make as meaningful as possible this life that has been bestowed upon us; to live in such a way that we may be proud of ourselves; to act in such a way that some part of us lives on. What we need is not freedom of the press, we need freedom FROM the press Oswald Spengler

Originally Posted by Smicha6551:

Not advocating their ammo or any of their testing, but if the bullet was really made of copper and tin, wouldn't it be far less dense than lead and therefore rather long for weight.  If so wouldn't it make sense that it would need the fast rate of twist?

 

The gel they used sounds like the stuff that can be melted and reused.  No idea if it's valid for testing bullets as compared with the material ordinarily used. http://clearballistics.com/instructions/

When put like you did it makes more sense, still wondering about the added powder to get velocity up and how much different in bullet drop and wind effect since it is pushing a lighter bullet at faster speeds....and how quickly they would loose speed.

 

Feel for the guys that HAVE to use this as a duty round.  Seeing it hit the "ballistic gel like substance" was not terribly impressive.  Let alone if there is anything in between you and bad guy.  Kind of seems like a step backward to the times before bonded ammo and car windshields.

Thanks for the clarification. 

 

R

Evil Looms, Cowboy Up, Kill It, Get Paid.  MHI Handbook

 RIP SPO Sean Thomas Wissink. EOW 02-11-07 Lo there, I see my father Lo there, I see my mother I see my sisters and brothers, the lines of my people back to the beginning. They becon me to join them in the halls of Valhalla. Were the brave shall live forever.

Impact with what?

 

Seriously, one can easily show that a standard JHP disintegrates on impact with a steel target or a brick wall.

 

Frangible disintegrates on impact with steel but NOT in tissue.  It acts like ball ammo, zero frag or expansion, lots of overpenetration.

 

Without a doubt the worst such law I have ever seen, but you knew that already.

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если не я тогда, кто?

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"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

I think that through "creative interpretation", you could assume that any non-bonded JHP could disintegrate on impact.  Based on the definition, fragmentation is consistent with the definition of disintegration.

 

dis·in·te·grate

verb \(ˌ)dis-ˈin-tə-ˌgrāt\

: to break apart into many small parts or pieces

 

Full Definition of DISINTEGRATE

transitive verb
1
:  to break or decompose into constituent elements, parts, or small particles
2
:  to destroy the unity or integrity of
intransitive verb
1
:  to break or separate into constituent elements or parts
2
:  to lose unity or integrity by or as if by breaking into parts
  

________________________

“The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation.” -Jeff Cooper

One thing I cant wrap my head around is how some shithead being able to hide behind common "classroom cover" like a schooldesk is a good thing...

 

...but I'm guessing they did not concern themselves with that.

Condition Yellow: For a Longer, Happier Life

Buford,

Thank you for posting that.  I found your comments very interesting.  What is your opinion of the gentleman from Sinterfire's comments.  Does/did a "duty" frangible round perform differently than a non "duty round"?

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

I know that Sinterfire is making (or researching the making of) ammunition intended to be barrier blind.  If it penetrates in the 12"-18" range and is truly barrier blind and expands reliably, I'd consider it for "duty use".

The proof is in the performance.

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