In 2018, is anybody voluntarily shooting .45ACP extensively on their own dime?

kaltesherz posted:

I've been fighting a strong urge to get a HK 45C for about 10 years now, I'm really hoping you guys will kill that desire for good. 

Wanting something and convincing yourself you need something are two different things. If you want it - you're a grown-ass man who pays his bills. Buy one. As long as your family is not starving and your car getting repoed - it's not a big deal. I used to buy guns and ammo, I buy parts for a jeep that is 100% a toy that I try to break crawling over rocks. Scratch the itch if you've had it for 10 years. 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

kaltesherz posted:

I've been fighting a strong urge to get a HK 45C for about 10 years now, I'm really hoping you guys will kill that desire for good. 

Dude, I'm going to tell you that the HK 45 and 45C are no doubt, pound for pound...dollar for dollar one of the best combat/duty pistols to date regardless of caliber.  As far as .45 ACP goes, it's the apex platform .45 goodness on target without spending stupid amounts of money or dicking around with an up-sized abortion of a design that would be best left as a 9mm.

The biggest negative of the 45C is that it won't support any light worth a fuck...the TLR7/8 is a maybe with some minor modification, but every other Streamlight or Surefire is a no-go. 

As far as accuracy goes, my guns are capable of 95% of the accuracy of my $3k custom 1911.  Now you can get these suckers for $600ish bucks after the HK price decrease. 

As far as longevity goes, I've never had a gun-related failure with either of my 45's and both are well past 15k rounds unless you count the 2x hard primers with garbage UMC I had in a Vickers class 5-6 years ago...where I will add I won the top shot honor (@Ranger325 was there...he can confirm).  I carried one one duty for 7 years.  I also posted my local club's first perfect 500/500 in competition with one shooting cheap ball against some custom 1911's, a P210 Legend, and a myriad of comp wheel gun weirdos. 

I literally am trying to deliberately kill one of them and haven't cleaned it in 2 years.  It's caked in soot and it won't stop.  I'm talking 25 consecutive Bill drills (15 mags/150 rounds) worth of rapid fire with no break in 5 minutes as a warm up...barrel gonna melt my truck liner style abuse.

While it's a lot of USP at heart, the USP ain't for everybody.  The 45 and the 45C...everybody can make at least one work.  Whether DA/SA, LEM or SAO configurations, I contend it's the best serious-use .45ACP...PERIOD.  Fight me!!!

 

Also:

https://pistol-training.com/ar...y/range-reports/hk45

I would also like to note it's one of the few to do well in MAC's idiotic "gauntlet" tests. 

 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

HK45cKac001As usual, PB4445 murders it.  The HK45 & 45c are end of the world guns.  Like every gunsmith on Earth died guns.

I have been debating on what pistol to take the Die Piggy Die event next year and IF the 45c could hold a decent light, I would.  45 Super solids FTMFW.  But I'm working on it.  I've done it before.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

The Most Reverend Consig

"I'm always down for good beer and the potential for violence." Fellow LFer. 

"I am apt to believe that [Independence Day] will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more."  John Adams

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

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Is the USP-9 worse than the -45, or just not as much a known quantity to those espousing the merits? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Me: "Hey convince me for good that there's no reason to get a HK45C since 9mm is the only relevant combat cartridge anymore"

LF:  "Dude, the HK45C is like running into Christina Hendricks at a bar after she finds out her husband has been cheating on her with her best friend for years, and it's last call"

Seriously, I trusted you guys...

BTW the 45C was going for $650 about 4 months ago, now they're impossible to be found. Except for maybe their $45 mags. 

PRAISE THE FALLEN

SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08         SPC Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09

1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08          PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

CPL Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08

 

Joined: 2/21/04          Location: Seattle,  WA

shoobe01 posted:

Is the USP-9 worse than the -45, or just not as much a known quantity to those espousing the merits? 

I've had the USP in 9, 40 and 45. 

While the Mk23 was the grandfather of the USP; the USP was technically designed and introduced around the .40 S&W for the US market making it different than all the other designs that crammed .40 into a 9mm.

The USP in 45's are bigger/beefier than the 40/9mm guns.

If .40 was the only thing I had to shoot, I would roll USP all day long given the "find a weapon designed for your round logic."

The 9mm is plenty beefy and I never had problems with the full-size and Experts I had chambered in 9mm.  What's curious though is that a bit like a 1911, you could tweek your spring weights for your load charge for better performance.  With my practice rounds, my Experts seemed like they took an eternity to cycle with that monster of a slide.  Again, I never had an issue with them and they shot the lights out.

Biggest problems/complaints with the USP is dated (despite being the first of its kind) "light rail", blocky feel and love'em or hate'em grips (size and texture).  And their triggers while serviceable are still comparably poor compared to other industry standards.

The USP really is impressive in that all 3 of the "big 3" run really, really well. 

 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

I recently picked up a slightly used USPC in 9mm with LEM, and it shoots extremely low- like 4-6 inches at 7 yards with a pretty bad grouping. On HKpro I found a few threads saying they tend to shoot low until you get used to it, but I've been shooting handguns for awhile and never heard of that before. Also I find the LEM a little slower to shoot despite all the type. I might convert it to DA/SA (came with those parts too) and see if that helps, but so far I'm pretty disappointed. 

PRAISE THE FALLEN

SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08         SPC Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09

1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08          PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

CPL Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08

 

Joined: 2/21/04          Location: Seattle,  WA

$650 is a bargain...and you can backorder them for that at EuroOptic.  You want mags?...wait for the webshop mag deals (buy 2 get one or heavily discounted).  Mags are the heart of a weapon; HK more often than not builds GOOD mags. 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

kaltesherz posted:

I recently picked up a slightly used USPC in 9mm with LEM, and it shoots extremely low- like 4-6 inches at 7 yards with a pretty bad grouping. On HKpro I found a few threads saying they tend to shoot low until you get used to it, but I've been shooting handguns for awhile and never heard of that before. Also I find the LEM a little slower to shoot despite all the type. I might convert it to DA/SA (came with those parts too) and see if that helps, but so far I'm pretty disappointed. 

LEM takes some getting used to, and it ain't for everyone.  In addition to Light (V1)  and Heavy (V2), we've got the Todd Green special/hybrid (my preference), 4.1 reduced travel and the LEM/Match hybrid variant.

With the USPc, you can always put in the match internals (except the trigger with overtravel stop) and the V9 detent plate and run that sucker like a 1911.  I did that for a long time with much success until I got used to the LEMs

There's a pretty good learning curve to the LEM and HK triggers.  There's some mush and people bitch about the length to return to reset, but trust me, they will run if you do your part.  Indian...not the arrow. 

What throws people the most with HK's is their sight picture. 

Image result for hk sight picture

Hopefully you're using #3 because that's what ze Germans intend. 

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

Yep, using the Image 3 hold. 

I'll see if the DA/SA trigger at least tightens up the group considerably, then maybe replacement sights to fix the POA/POI issue.

Thanks for the heads up at EuroOptic, they have "cheap" HK45C mags too- hopefully they get restocked soon...

PRAISE THE FALLEN

SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08         SPC Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09

1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08          PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

CPL Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08

 

Joined: 2/21/04          Location: Seattle,  WA

I'm now retired from LE, but generally paid for all my practice ammo anyway.  I still shoot .45 ACP too.  I don't know the ratio to 9mm, .40, .357SIG, and .38 Special.  I'd estimate 90%/10% 9mm to all other calibers.  I was first issued .40 guns.  My final 4 years was with a 9mm G17Gen4.

I'm usually carrying 9mm, and my alternatives are usually .45 ACP or .38 Special.  I already own the guns in those calibers and prefer to stay proficient with all of them.

.45 ACP ammo is just so much more expensive.   I still have two Glocks and four 1911-type firearms in the caliber. 

For the LAPD SIS comment (I think it was Post#2), it's my understanding the model developed at SIS' request was the "G30S", not the G30SF.  The G30S is a G30SF frame with a G36 slide.  I was ok with the G30SF and G30Gen4 and went with those instead of the G30S, plus my dealer didn't have the G30S in stock the day I was buying.  I'd previously owned a regular G30 ("Gen2.5") pre-dating the G30SF model.  Admittedly, I've never shot or even held a G30S.

kaltesherz posted:

I've been fighting a strong urge to get a HK 45C for about 10 years now, I'm really hoping you guys will kill that desire for good. 

You're reminding me that I wouldn't mind having a HK 45CT in the stable too. Along with a MK23 after having shot a buddy's a while back.

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

Not that they had any reason to or that it would have worked but I always look at my Mk23 and wonder if they could have made a "K" model.  Thought that would be full of teh awesome.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

The Most Reverend Consig

"I'm always down for good beer and the potential for violence." Fellow LFer. 

"I am apt to believe that [Independence Day] will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more."  John Adams

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Consigliere posted:
XTCBX posted:

John, I’m right there with you on 1911’s in 9mm, but...they shoot really, really...really good. I’ll keep the .45ACP flag waving in my 1911’s until I physically can’t do it anymore. Just as JMB intended. 

I couldn't even hold one at Jojo's.   I felt its evil through the glass case.  That said because of our mag ban, they are really popular.  More than one person has told me that shooting a 9mm in a 5" steel 1911 is like cheating.  They love them.  Of course, while I believe them, I will not talk to them anymore.  Heretics. 

Con, it's OK to talk to them.  Just keep one hand firmly on your wallet, and never loan them money.

Squad Privates, Sir.

Ain't they cute?

Consigliere posted:
XTCBX posted:

John, I’m right there with you on 1911’s in 9mm, but...they shoot really, really...really good. I’ll keep the .45ACP flag waving in my 1911’s until I physically can’t do it anymore. Just as JMB intended. 

I couldn't even hold one at Jojo's.   I felt its evil through the glass case.  That said because of our mag ban, they are really popular.  More than one person has told me that shooting a 9mm in a 5" steel 1911 is like cheating.  They love them.  Of course, while I believe them, I will not talk to them anymore.  Heretics. 

You know what the Catholic Church says about looking for a religion that suits you or your "beliefs", right?

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Some thoughts...

I started shooting pistols with a 1911 on 45..taught by the original armorer to the unit.

I first shot a Glock in 90 or 91

I like 40.

I like the NY Islanders , but I'm not counting on them to win the cup anytime soon.

Confidence in your weapon, no matter how unfounded counts for something.

A friend of mine knows a guy who has been shot by both 45 and 9mm..says you can tell the difference.

Ban state...Doc has stated, and please correct me if I misunderstood..that going with 45 has more to do with reliability of a gun designed to hold 8 to 10rds over a neutered mag..than effectiveness.

I hope some one comes out with a quality G19/M&P sized single stack 9/40

The M&P was designed as a 40. I swear my M&PC in 40 recoils less than an issue G23 gen4 I had.

At one time Doc noted a slight edge in barrier performance to the 40...likely no longer the case.

At one time LAV said not to trust 9mm 1911s or less than 5" 1911s

At one time LAV and Hack said the M&P was the future

People buy stuff on SME opinions...opinions that change. Unfortunately some people can't afford to keep up with the latest recomendations.

I know at least one straight up gunfighter that one multiple gunfights with a 1911 in 45 loaded with hydra shok...he probably don't care what the internet says.

I've said this before 

 I'm willing to give up 2rds of 9mm to get the slight edge the 40 once held..I'm not willing to give up 7rds of 40 to get the 45.

That is probably no longer applicable...but see my comment about keeping up with recomendations.

I'm also much more concerned with the gun and its set up than its caliber..I'm issued a 9 right now..caliber..fine..the gun sux...I'd carry 9mm ball and not blink.

I own more 9s then 40s or 45s..I've converted to 40s to 9mm..and shoot and carry them the most....still like 40.

What I don't like are sanctimonious assholes on the internet bashing the 40/45 & usually the 1911.

Most of them weren't born when the same  agency that is telling us the 9mm is the answer now, told us 10mm was the answer. 

There was a world before bonded 9mm and G19s

And....every argument in favor of the 9mm starts with.." with the best ammo"

Well, what if you don't have the best ammo?

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"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

hile posted:

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Mk23 is a range gun.  Cool as fuck and you will love it but I would go HK45.  Prices have come way down on HKs.  The price disadvantage is almost gone.  The HK45 is a beast.  As long as it has sights you like, it needs nothing.

 

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

The Most Reverend Consig

"I'm always down for good beer and the potential for violence." Fellow LFer. 

"I am apt to believe that [Independence Day] will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more."  John Adams

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

hile posted:

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Eurooptic also has mil/LE discounts on certain product lines, may save another few bucks if you sign up for an account.

treehopr posted:
hile posted:

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Eurooptic also has mil/LE discounts on certain product lines, may save another few bucks if you sign up for an account.

Yeah, I knew that. Unfortunately, I don't qualify.

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

Consigliere posted:
hile posted:

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Mk23 is a range gun.  Cool as fuck and you will love it but I would go HK45.  Prices have come way down on HKs.  The price disadvantage is almost gone.  The HK45 is a beast.  As long as it has sights you like, it needs nothing.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean John. It's on the "I want it." list because I've wanted one for almost 20 years.

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....  we loaded 200gr cast lead bullets, Hensley & Gibbs #68 semi-wadcutter at about 900fps.  Accurate, reliable and fairly cheap.  A little smoky as I recall.  

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treehopr posted:
hile posted:

Fuck, you guys pointing out EuroOptic has the HK45s are a really bad influence on my bank account. I really don't want to drop another $3000 right now on pistols, but an HK45 Compact Tactical and a MK23 are both on my want lists...

Eurooptic also has mil/LE discounts on certain product lines, may save another few bucks if you sign up for an account.

Holy fuck that was easy- sent them my creds and they responded back with the discount in probably less than 60 seconds. Not a huge discount, but every bit helps (especially when you're about to start shooting again like it's 1998 and your wallet is still in 2018)

Thanks for the heads up!

PRAISE THE FALLEN

SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08         SPC Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09

1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08          PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

CPL Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08

 

Joined: 2/21/04          Location: Seattle,  WA

I know a guy who got shot point black with a .45 and lived. My cousin got shot by a .40 and lived. He said the .40 blew him around...(impact?) but again he lived. 

 I still carry a 9mm and it doesent bother me. Preaching to the choir here of course...we keep shooting till they catch fire....

there was a video about a cop who got into a gun fight with a suspect. Copper used his issued glock 21? I believe and the suspect took a few rounds and kept coming. The copper almost ran dry during the exchange of gunfire. He rethinked his option firearms wise and decided to go glock 17 with extra mags....even carring a glock 33 mag if I'm not mistaken. He went with "more rounds" vs bigger round. 

Most of my training was on a glock 22 in .40. Switching over to 9mm I now shoot tighter groups and shoot more because of the price of ammo. Shooting under stress is another reason I went 9mm. Trying to tip the odds in my favor. That's just me.

Regarding the "no duty projectiles" situation a couple of you bring up.

(Excluding you poor sons of bitches that live in no-murder-bullet hollow point states)...

What is your ratio of Duty/non-training/Go-to ammo compared to your range training ammo?

for me in cases of "Duty" vs "Training"

Carbine 1:4

Precision 4:1

Pistol: 1:10

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

pointblank4445 posted:

Regarding the "no duty projectiles" situation a couple of you bring up.

(Excluding you poor sons of bitches that live in no-murder-bullet hollow point states)...

What is your ratio of Duty/non-training/Go-to ammo compared to your range training ammo?

for me in cases of "Duty" vs "Training"

Carbine 1:4

Precision 4:1

Pistol: 1:10

PB4445 

Thanks for putting up those ratios. Don’t think I’ve ever seen or read about anyone’s ratios before. It’s got me thinking, and that could be dangerous. 

Mojo/Mark
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Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

Low_Speed_Notper8or posted:

Head to a USPSA match and you will see a surprising amount of guys shooting .45 AARP in single stack and Limited 10.  You can load a heavy .45 bullet really lightly to make USPSA major and in a steel framed 1911 it shoots pretty softly.

 I don't do USPSA anymore, but in IDPA it's dropped precipitously in the last couple of years. .45-centric (really, .45-in-1911-centric) classes are way down. The best you see anymore is around 2:1 in favor of 9 mm, with only a few .40s, and a few revolvers around the edges. 

And that's where it's a bit of a game. Just shooting? I gather without data that many of these folks don't shoot a .45 all the time. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Low_Speed_Notper8or posted:

H guys shooting .45 AARP in single stack and Limited 10.  You can load a heavy .45 bullet really lightly to make USPSA major and in a steel framed 1911 it shoots pretty softly.

 

I wish I would of known about the AARP discount before I ordered the last two cases of 185JHP from MG.

Do I just scan my card?

About 20% of the pistol rounds I shoot are .45ACP; the remaining 80% are 9mm.

Well I do shoot a lot of .22 but you get the idea.

The 4600 Montana Golds should last me nearly a year.

bestcounsel posted:

I know a guy who got shot point black with a .45 and lived. My cousin got shot by a .40 and lived. He said the .40 blew him around...(impact?) but again he lived. 

 I still carry a 9mm and it doesent bother me. Preaching to the choir here of course...we keep shooting till they catch fire....

there was a video about a cop who got into a gun fight with a suspect. Copper used his issued glock 21? I believe and the suspect took a few rounds and kept coming. The copper almost ran dry during the exchange of gunfire. He rethinked his option firearms wise and decided to go glock 17 with extra mags....even carring a glock 33 mag if I'm not mistaken. He went with "more rounds" vs bigger round. 

Most of my training was on a glock 22 in .40. Switching over to 9mm I now shoot tighter groups and shoot more because of the price of ammo. Shooting under stress is another reason I went 9mm. Trying to tip the odds in my favor. That's just me.

The LEO you're referring to was SGT Timothy Gramins of Skokie, IL PD. That case and Jared Reston (FL) getting shot up with .45 ACP--including one in the mouth--is usually what I reply back to people gabbing on about "stopping power". That said, I carry 9mm daily on and off duty, but I also like .45 Auto. 

_______________________

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"You are here to put in work...If you know AR 670-1 better than FM 7-8, get the fuck out of my face." ~MickFury

Also worth revisiting this thread: 

https://www.lightfighter.net/t...93#43530551884202693

Where there are some discussions of stopping power myths. One I brought up is one of those uttered in the same breath as M&S in the 80s and early 90s about how 9mm didn't stop a bad guy so must suck. But neither did much bigger rounds, and it took not one but the second 12 ga slug to finally stop him.

Lots of other cases like this, which were often shitty data, lies, or selection bias. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

danger_close posted:
bestcounsel posted:

I know a guy who got shot point black with a .45 and lived. My cousin got shot by a .40 and lived. He said the .40 blew him around...(impact?) but again he lived. 

 I still carry a 9mm and it doesent bother me. Preaching to the choir here of course...we keep shooting till they catch fire....

there was a video about a cop who got into a gun fight with a suspect. Copper used his issued glock 21? I believe and the suspect took a few rounds and kept coming. The copper almost ran dry during the exchange of gunfire. He rethinked his option firearms wise and decided to go glock 17 with extra mags....even carring a glock 33 mag if I'm not mistaken. He went with "more rounds" vs bigger round. 

Most of my training was on a glock 22 in .40. Switching over to 9mm I now shoot tighter groups and shoot more because of the price of ammo. Shooting under stress is another reason I went 9mm. Trying to tip the odds in my favor. That's just me.

The LEO you're referring to was SGT Timothy Gramins of Skokie, IL PD. That case and Jared Reston (FL) getting shot up with .45 ACP--including one in the mouth--is usually what I reply back to people gabbing on about "stopping power". That said, I carry 9mm daily on and off duty, but I also like .45 Auto. 

If I read the remember correctly, the SGT scored a number of good hits, including some "fatal" ones.  The perp used 2 pistols an S&W and a Bersa? IIRC.  The officer did a good interview/right afterwards that was very informative.  I was very impressed by his actions under fire.

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

Example thread on [another gun forum]

Is jhp overkill in 45 acp?

Yes, the belief that .45 is head-and-shoulders more powerful than other handguns, so much that maybe I don't even want it to have Moar Deth Power, is quite out there. 

The good part is: almost all responses are "dude, handguns suck, get all you can!" 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Example thread on [another gun forum]

Is jhp overkill in 45 acp?

Yes, the belief that .45 is head-and-shoulders more powerful than other handguns, so much that maybe I don't even want it to have Moar Deth Power, is quite out there. 

The good part is: almost all responses are "dude, handguns suck, get all you can!" 

Well, here is the thing in the history of .45 ammo.


Back in the day when you only had ball ammo, 45 was a less bad option. Especially when 9mm was pointed FMJ and just poked pinholes.

Also, the reputation for "MUH STOPPING POWA" for a .45 came up from alot of close in fighting in Asia against the Japanese in ww2, the Chinese in Korea, and to an extent the VC in Vietnam.   Not to be politically incorrect, but those were much smaller guys  who were practically half starved.

Alot of the .45 was actually used in subguns and that probably was fairly effective for the time against the kind of close range and usually nighttime attacks the Japanese and Chinese favored.  

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

Yup. Still hear folks occasionally talk of why the .45 was adopted, missing that the Moro were pretty intent (maybe drugged), badly outnumbered us, used tactics we were not effective at stopping at first, and sure we had a sorta terrible loading of the .38s and a not very fast firing rifle which is why people resorted to their DA revolvers anyway. 

It also seems as we got into modern cartridges the .45 was a regionally-preferred choice. The .38 Super was the g- to Man Stopper for other regions. Some folks clung to speed, so stuck with Mauser, then Tokarov, and the grail: the CZ52 with it's extra-pressure loading of same. 

I can never find good info on it but maybe the most deadly single handgun engagement ever was a Cuban (?) carrying a Star (probably in Largo, not Parabellum) for their commie support of the 70s African bush wars, killed something like 11 or 14 enemy in a short time when his rifle(?) went down. So to those who heard that tale (legend?), the 9mm Largo took on mythical status for a while and some Spanish troops were reportedly unhappy when they had to step down to Parabellum for the NATO compliance. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Yup. Still hear folks occasionally talk of why the .45 was adopted, missing that the Moro were pretty intent (maybe drugged), badly outnumbered us, used tactics we were not effective at stopping at first, and sure we had a sorta terrible loading of the .38s and a not very fast firing rifle which is why people resorted to their DA revolvers anyway. 

It also seems as we got into modern cartridges the .45 was a regionally-preferred choice. The .38 Super was the g- to Man Stopper for other regions. Some folks clung to speed, so stuck with Mauser, then Tokarov, and the grail: the CZ52 with it's extra-pressure loading of same. 

I can never find good info on it but maybe the most deadly single handgun engagement ever was a Cuban (?) carrying a Star (probably in Largo, not Parabellum) for their commie support of the 70s African bush wars, killed something like 11 or 14 enemy in a short time when his rifle(?) went down. So to those who heard that tale (legend?), the 9mm Largo took on mythical status for a while and some Spanish troops were reportedly unhappy when they had to step down to Parabellum for the NATO compliance. 

Thats kind of interesting, .38 super in its vintage loading is pretty similar to the modern 9mm +P, and must of been nice enough to shoot in a 1911. The more things change the more they stay the same

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

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