Kicking it Old School: Belts and Suspenders for LBE

Don't get me wrong....the tailgunner will probably work better in the winter months, when I would want to carry "more" (an extra mid-layer, second blanket/bivy sac, maybe some finger food, spare pair of socks).  I can hook a couple of pouches for AR mags on the belt (for the .300 AR), and everything else can go inside.  IF I ever did something stupid, like broke an ankle, etc., I would have to shelter in place.  Eventually the wife will figure out that I haven't come home, until then, it would be up to me to stay dry, warm and alive.

I didn't mean to come off as dismissive as I sounded.  I LIKE the tailgunner, it's a great piece of gear; BUT, it's SO well made that it's heavy just in and of itself.  The older I get, the less weight my body wants to carry.  If the pistol and mags are non-negotiable (and they are), then something else has to give.  I prefer to move light and fast, not plod along, so does the dog.  The idea is, I want the equipment ON me, that can help me.  In that, I don't want it to be heavy to the point that it's a chore to put on/wear.  

 


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

For just cutting about the woods, carrying all that gear, I’d be tempted to just get a small pack. Something like the Mayflower 24 hour pack or similar.

Wont interfere with the stuff you normally wear on your belt, easy to throw on etc

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sky potato posted:

For just cutting about the woods, carrying all that gear, I’d be tempted to just get a small pack. Something like the Mayflower 24 hour pack or similar.

Wont interfere with the stuff you normally wear on your belt, easy to throw on etc

OK.....so the pistol and mags are non-negotiable (as stated).  They'll be worn on a belt of some kind (I've looked at shoulder holsters, and they're not out of the question, but currently not being used).  NOW, at this point, I could easily throw on a back pack and call it good (I'm currently evaluating TT's fight light backpack with ITS skeleton bottle carriers in this role).  BUT, this thread is about LBEs, so the thought occurred to me, since I grew up in the Army wearing an LBE (89-OIF1 and some times beyond....like airborne operations), instead of a pack, why not fashion a LBE style system that would fill the requirement. 

Today, it's 89% humidity, so I want my back open/breathing as much as possible.  I could go with an ALICE frame, but now I'm carrying more pack than I really need/want, AND, I'm still wearing the pistol belt around my waist.  The point of my particular post, would be to figure out how to carry what I want to carry, in the lightest most comfortable way, so I DO carry it every single day I walk into the woods.  It's the old adage of "the best gun is the one you're carrying".  Most would agree, that while the HK 23 is an incredible piece of German engineering, it's really too heavy to carry on a daily basis.  If it's TOO heavy or cumbersome, I will start talking myself OUT of carrying; or more honestly, my body will.  My ankles, knees, hips, and lower back are pretty much shot (even the VA agrees with me).

The TT fight light stuff is really shinning at this point, because I'm not adding a bunch of additional weight in 1000D pouches.  If, between the IFAK+, the "survival" gear, the anorak, and the water bottle, I'm looking at carrying 8+/- pounds more than currently, I don't want to add an Additional 8+/- pounds in pouches/material, just to make that happen.  There's got to be a balance, between carrying what I should have or need, and still being comfortable and mobile while breaking through the brush.

I hope this explains some of why I'm rolling through this exercise.  


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Yeah I get what you're going through; it's good that you're giving some thought to what works for you; it's just confusing with all the choices.  

I would try for a layered approach.  So start with EDC, and then add a small assault pack with stuff like water, wet/cold gear, etc.  That's just reacting to a sudden event that might require a few more things.    

The next level would be for more of an extended emergency event, vs a single evolution for a missing kid/dog etc.   For instance, a twister, or heavy storm, etc.  Where services may be interrupted for awhile.  In this case, the belt kit might be a good upgrade.  The difference being you know something bad is happening and you're dressed for it, rather than reacting to it.  

From there you might possibly be looking at a WROL type event, where emergency services are over-whelmed and you're on your own for awhile. If you have the resources to push your perimeter out, and interdict bad news as far away from the home as possible, then you might look at belt kit with a ruck.

If you have regular "patrol" routes, for lack of better term, then you might consider a re-supply cache, at the furthest limit from the house.  There you could access cold/wet weather gear, water, etc; whatever you forgot or ran out of.  It's also a good idea to have a cache right outside of the house, somewhere near by.  If your home is damaged, emergency services may not let you back in, so having clothes, water, etc. for the family will take care of immediate needs until you get access to your house.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Death can occur:  3 minutes without air, 3 hours without proper shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.  Of course, these numbers can go in either direction, but they are a start.

Look at things from an easy start point......the Five C's of Survival;  Cover, Cordage, Container, Cutting, and Combustion.  Cover; that;s the casualty blanket, as well as the anorak.  Cordage; that's the 50ft of type 1 paracord (dummy cord).  Container; that's the 500ml water bottle (probably Klean Canteen Stainless single wall to be able to boil....could be a Nalgene with stainless cup), plus the squeeze bag and filter.  Cutting; well I at least carry two, if not 3 knives/tools. Combustion; bic lighters, plus matches/ferro rod.

Dave Cantebury takes it up to 10 C's, with the addition of Candlelight, Cotton Bandana, Compass, Cargo tape, and Canvas needle.  Candlelight; that's covered with the EDC surefire. Cotton bandana; that's easy enough to add.  Compass; I've talked about adding that, plus a good topo map.  Cargo tape; (aka duct tape) I've got a miniature roll of gorilla tape to throw in.  Canvas needle; I'm not looking at being out there that long, probably the one thing I would leave out.

3 hours without proper shelter.  First is to stay DRY, then to stay Warm.  You can go into hypothermia in as high of temperatures as in the 50s, by being wet and having a wind.  So, you get out of the wind and rain, and either bundle up in a blanket to keep warm, build a fire to keep warm, or BOTH.  Cutting, Cordage, Cover and Combustion all work for this one thing, to maintain core body temperature.  I could easily add in 2 or 3 of the mylar space blankets to aid in all of this.

3 days without water. This all depends on a lot of things.  In the scenario I'm talking about, I'm MOVING, through the woods, when it's hot and humid.  To ME, water becomes much more important.  Then, there's the difference between being "alive" and actually functioning.  Of course the container goes to this, but so does combustion (to boil/purify), cover (rain water catchment), and cordage (more rain water catchment....drip lines).  

So, as long as you can stay dry, relatively warm, and hydrated; now you can live for 3 weeks or more (with my added padding, I'm saying 5 weeks min.). 

The first aid kit is of course to treat trauma, but more importantly to prevent little things from becoming BIG things (scratches/cuts from getting infected, etc.).  The anorak is to allow me to continue to move while trying to stay dry.  it's also big enough that it covers the pistol belt/pistol, in the event of rain.

SO, this is a BASIC kit, to walk around in my local area, for at least 2 if not 3 seasons (could be pushed into winter, if it's not too harsh).  Anything else COULD be layered on top of this, from 24/72 hour assault packs, to full blown rucks.  With an assault pack, I would probably attach a bigger "bush knife", such as the Esee 5 or 6 and probably throw in a larger folding saw, like a Silky Professional 5".  I would probably also throw in some easy "food", either cold drink mix (Gatorade or the like) or hot drink mix (coffee/cocoa), soups  (lipton), trail mix, hard candy and the like.  Nothing that would take a LOT of prep, but also nothing too HEAVY, like MREs.  

Also, with the LBE I'm describing, it would be VERY easy to throw a plate carrier over the top.  All the shoulder straps on the LBE is doing, is helping to hold up the belt; they're NOT padded in any way, and should pretty much disappear under the PC.  


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Diz,

I'm obviously not a soldier and the only jungle I've ever been in is the Rainforest Cafe at the mall. (fucking scary BTW.)  But before God tried to kill me for 8 straight years, I was lucky to train with various PDs that took pity on me.  Also, for the past  couple of years we have quite the crew that come up to do some serious shooting, a bunch of them doing it for a living.

So I made a "war belt" just for this purpose.  Now I found this thread so I wanted to see how I'm doing. 

It's an OSOE molle belt that John made for me way back when.   (For all of you whose blood pressure just went up, I get it.  I understand now.  I didn't then.)  Anyway, even then I didn't want to place a bunch of crap on it I would never use.  The belt alone is heavy as fuck.  You could tow a tank with it.  So I only added a dump pouch, an IFAK, a Safariland holster for my 1911 and 2 cool Eagle FB pouches each holding one 5.56 mag and 2 1911 mags which was plenty for any drill.  The belt is OSOE as well with a cobra buckle.

All packed up I felt a need for some shoulder support.  I was reading the jungle kit thread and saw Jay Jay's.  Brother sky potato hooked me up with them and they sent me an awesome suspender set with padded shoulder straps.  After adjusting it a bit it is GTG.  Any Brit or Aussie kit company I have ever dealt with are amazing in their customer service even for a LSHD broke sick like me.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

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There is to be a LF Hog Eradication early 2019.  I'm not going to hunt with a 100 lbs of shit on me.  I might just use the belt above but I also have this TYR sniper rig.  It will hold a hydro on the back and currently it just has a GP pouch and a double 5 or 10 round box mag for my Surgeon Scalpel.   It is light and comfy as fuck so I'll chuck on a holster, an IFAK, remove the GP pouch and box mag pouch and add the Eagle FBs.  TYR makes some nice shit as well.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

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Yeah that's some really good kit, don't get me wrong.  But it's also a bit dated.  Now the requirement is for lighter weight gear, that sheds water instead of absorbing it.  So you will see much lighter if any padding, different materials, and perhaps even new old ways of doing things.  Case in point, compare the new Velocity/Mayflower jungle kit with what was state of the art a very short time ago.  I mean when you pick up their jungle kit, and it feels roughly half the weight of what you've been carrying, it's like no shit, I gotta switch over to this stuff.  

And I don't mean to just be trendy, it's all about getting that weight down, improving the LBE, and how it all fits and works together.  This has been a continuous process for decades, and with the return to new jungle kit, I think we are finally making some progress at solving some very old issues.     

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yeah man he has 4 x 3-mag 556 pouches, with 4 frag pouches on sides.  That's legit for his missions, 12 mags and  4 frags.  Then 2 x GP/Canteen pouches with Brit 1 qt canteens and cups, and a buttpack, possibly with another canteen.  We are working on the load out right now, trying to fit (at least one) radio in, and then this will all be stripped of molle and sewn down.

Yeah it's good to see guys building belt kits again.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Hey Diz, if he replaces that belt with the BFG belt minus he should easily be able to fit all that and a radio, maybe two if he calls before ordering to check to see which size has the right amount of columns.  He could run the BFG suspenders (which are pretty good, but only 4 point) or im sure you could rig a way to run the mayflower suspenders with it to spread the load a little better.  I dont think sewing the pouches onto the belt would be an issue.  That belt minus is hypalon, so little to no water absorption.

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

Hey cool, and that is one option.  Running wolf was saying that as well.

What I'm thinking is to get some of that there unobtanium material, like V/M (and Crossfire) use, and make a new belt.  Plain, about 5" wide.  And then direct sew everything to it, once we get the config done.

Some folks are saying the lighter stuff won't hold up, once soaked and abused for extended periods in the bush.  Dunno, we'll have to see.    

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Well yeah this old school for what we did, and again, for what others may have to do.  All those posts you've seen with guys gobbing on about how they never carried more than 4 mags, etc.  This is a totally different sit.  For a small team trying to break contact in the jungle, you can easily burn through 6-7 mags in a few bounds.  so yeah I think you will find guys carrying anywhere from 9-12 mags.

So for jungle ops, the 3-mag pouches just make sense, working from belt kits.   

    

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Well yeah this old school for what we did, and again, for what others may have to do.  All those posts you've seen with guys gobbing on about how they never carried more than 4 mags, etc.  This is a totally different sit.  For a small team trying to break contact in the jungle, you can easily burn through 6-7 mags in a few bounds.  so yeah I think you will find guys carrying anywhere from 9-12 mags.

So for jungle ops, the 3-mag pouches just make sense, working from belt kits.   

    

THANKS! Copy all!

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

sub posted:

Another question, why a butt pack vs 2 general purpose/kidney pouches? I know it is probably personel preferance but why ? Mission,SOP, AO ? Thanks

I'm curious as well. 

 

It might be sizing. I know with the V/M stuff, the buttpack takes four columns to mount. The larger GP pouches take three each. 

On the buttpack thing, yeah it's a personal preference.  I think, in general, Yanks have preferred a buttpack, whereas Brits (and Aussies) have used individual sustainment pouches.  No special mission/SOP/etc.  just personal preference.  Actually I prefer individual sustainment pouches myself, but I do see the utility of the butt bag.

Yeah it could be sizing in some cases.  If you're smaller waisted, it might be easier to get more kit into a smaller area on the belt line.  

And could depend on what you want to carry.  Obviously, if you want a windshirt, or a poncho, or something similar the butt pack might be a better choice.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

On the 40mm or SAW, both of which my buddy has carried, he had custom chest rigs made by V/M just for these purposes.  As he re-orients towards other missions, especially with belt kit, this will be interesting to explore.  I don't know right now but will see what I can learn.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

So, question from a LSHD type, who has been reading this series of threads with interest.

 

As I have a penchant for AK's, how do the SMERSH systems stand up for this kind of thing?  I've been looking at getting something dedicated to the AK platform and have been looking at the SPOSN SMERSH setups, been wondering on the build quality and how well they actually work.

The SPOSN SMERSH rig is pretty much the best AK rig you can use. Build quality is solid, their choice of materials can be a little wonky but they've served and served well overseas and in Chechnya, Ukraine, Georgia, etc. I've owned two, and loved them for what they were. The belt padding and harness integration is nothing innovative but it's solid and well executed.

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

I think the  sov combloc stuff would work quite well with this concept.  They have some nice belt kit set-ups, as opposed to chest rig type stuff.  I've seen some nice AK mag pouches for use on the belt line.  So as long as their surplus is still available, I'd think you would have no problem setting up a good belt kit.  

As to how it would work with AK's/AK mags, I don't see any big issues.  Sure they're a littler longer, perhaps heavier (depending on your choice of caliber) but all n all they'll fit on a belt kit.  I've worked with 5.45 off the belt line and it was no big deal.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

So, while we're on the subject, been cranking on this stuff all week and testing out a few different configs.  

So here's the deal.  Jay Jays is kinda big and bulky but by God it works.  Now VM stuff is really light but lacks a little in the comfort dept, especially with a full sized ruck thrown over it.

What I think it's gonna boil down to, is each person must decide where on the sliding scale they want/need to be.  For me, with a avg 50 lb load out, I have to make a compromise between ultra light weight and durability/comfort.  Any ruck that's at least 30-35 lbs is gonna put pressure on the belt harness and depending on what you're running, it's gonna cause pain.  So I have to determine what/how much padding I need to carry the load all day and not be so distracted by the discomfort that I lose focus on the mission.  

I have tried "X" panels, "H" harness, plain "X" cross straps; 1/8", 1/4", and 1/2" padding; poly batting, close cell foam, and hypolon.  It all pretty much sucked, to one degree or another.  So my thinking is you might want to try something which pulls the weight into your torso, rather than just sitting atop your belt kit pouches.  But that's a subject for a ruck thread.  

So at this point, I will not be motherfucking JJ's beefier builds; if they are working for you, drive on.  My Jay Jay's rig probably sucked the least of all the ones I tested.  So I think I will go back to that config and work on lightening it up but still keeping it somewhat comfortable.  Again this is in conjunction with a full size ruck, which is a subject for another day, but suffice it to say, that does have bearing on how your belt kit is configured.

Also, VM mag pouches are a tad wide, or at least wider than I prefer.  So making them all fit, in sewn down mode, is gonna be a PITA.  You will either have to scrunch the pouches a bit, or lengthen your belt pad, which you really want to keep at your hip points, and no further forward.  Or, just keep the stock attachment system and go molle.

It was a good week of R&D but we still have a lot of work in front of us.  But I'm stoked because this is as close as I've ever come to getting this shit right.  When I get a working model, I will post pics.            

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Just a comment about mags and fire fight in the jungle. My experience from Vietnam 65-66 with 1st Cav, our basic load was 180 rds. Found out real quick that was short. Got over run along the way and after that I never carried less than 640 rounds along with my other gear.  So having a good set up can go along way in insuring you have what you need. ( I was a 11B )

Hey man glad to have you weigh in.  Jungle ops is so far removed from most guy's experiences in the G-WOT that they just don't know the T,T,P's from that time period, and/or how that can also apply to them and their current sit.  

SOG Teams, LRRP's, and other units carried massive ammo load outs, not to mention frags, WP, smoke, claymores, and C-4.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I am no expert, I just know what I carried.  It was a time when we only had 20 rd mags for the M16 that would only function reliably with 17-18 rounds.  So that meant doing the best we could with what we had.  At the time I had 4 mag pouches on my rig with 4 mags per pouch, along with 2 hand frags and a WP.  Extra ammo was in my pack with rations and a pound of C4.  4 canteens, sleeping gear(poncho and liner) we could get LRRP rations, entrenching tool,other odds and ends socks etc.  That was a time when I was younger and stronger, don't know if I could hump it now.  For those wondering I was in an airborne infantry company in the Cav, we had the 1st Brigade on jump status until Sep 66.    Anyway, there is a lot of information out there that Special Forces utilized, as an example canteen carriers to carry magazines, did that at times as well.  Things changed.

@madbomber1998 I can't recommend the current-gen Smersh, it's OK but not great.  It's got metal hardware and thin nylon fabric.  I've heard of problems with both (metal hardware rusting, fabric wearing holes).  The fabric isn't 500d cordura, it's some weird Russian nylon stuff.  SRVV makes a PLCE-ish one called the SAS if you want something webbing-y and AK compatible.  I can't vouch for it's quality (or lack thereof) but it's an option to be aware of.  Of course you could also throw your own together with a battle belt and suspenders, or an Eagle H-harness.

edit: slangvel I like your hats

Looks interesting; have to keep an eye on it.  You have to be careful with the Brit kit.  A lot of their "after-market" stuff has a bad rep, as far as durability in comparison to their issue kit.  Lots of unscrupulous businesses looking to make a buck off the market.  But then you have folks like Jay Jays who make uber-quality stuff.  It's just like over here; depends on the vendor.  Are we looking at "condor" or "mayflower".

Off the top of me head.  Laser cut shoulder harness with zero padding.  Sure, if you're wearing BA.  Mag pouches cut low, urban gunfighter style.  Top flaps with no side panels.  Great access but at the expense of pro?  Hip belt in the middle of belt pad, versus running along the top.  No problem until you throw a full sized ruck on.   So just spit-balling here, looks designed to be worn with a modern/urban load out, versus old school patrolling in the jungle.  So just depends on what you're up to.        

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

On Russian kity (that was a typo but funny so I left it).  You have to look at the whole Roosian design philosophy here  They approach many things differently from us.  First of all, life is relatively cheap to them, or at least they are willing to sacrifice their soldiers in great numbers for the cause.  As opposed to western democracies that are risk-adverse, due to political considerations.  Secondly, much less than their soldiers, their weapons and equipment are considered expendable.  They don't make shit to last forever, like all us gear queers love to gob on about.  They make it to last the battle, or until it gets shot or blown up.  So it's relatively cheap (by our standards), and made in mass quantities.

Now you can agree or disagree with that, but it is a POV.  This is something I have struggled with in the past.  Most kit will last much longer than the style/color/load out of the day.  Then there is crap that won't last a weekend in the bush.  Not to mention high-end stuff.  The Russian stuff is somewhere in between.  

A lot depends on the end-user.  Some guys use the shit out of their gear; some guys never get it dirty.  Very wide range.  With all the gear queers out there, that rarely actually use it, the results are skewed somewhat.  What might be considered a minimum standard, based on actual use, is now based on internet chatter, which may, or may not be accurate.

That's why I like coming here, because I can talk with guys actually out in the bush using this stuff.  At the end of the day, although I would prefer custom-made stuff, you take what is at hand, and fight with it.  Just because of where conflicts have taken place, I would hazard to guess more gear towards the Russian model has been used, than all the Gucci gear in closets in this country.  Which is not to say, we don't take advantage of our time and opportunities available, but rather what will work, versus what is optimum.                   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Rhodesian webbing and minor tactics are always a good starting point to look at too, when considering temperate bush terrain and LP/OP, patrolling, stay-behind ambush requirements.  Definitely a good example of how to fight light without the kitchen sink bullshit.

It is better that they do it imperfectly than that you do it perfectly. For it is their war and their country and your time here is limited.

 

                                                                                                                        —T. E. Lawrence

 

 

POSREP: UAE

Diz posted:

Looks interesting; have to keep an eye on it.  You have to be careful with the Brit kit.  A lot of their "after-market" stuff has a bad rep, as far as durability in comparison to their issue kit. [...] So just spit-balling here, looks designed to be worn with a modern/urban load out, versus old school patrolling in the jungle.  So just depends on what you're up to.        

Good copy, thanks for the input. It looks like a modified Velocity system will probably work best - main focus is a hot weather patrolling kit with a short ruck.

I never really thought about it from that perspective before.  And it's true that a current gen Smersh is only 100 dollars compared to 300-500 for Jay Jay's or Velsyst.

Since sources that aren't in English basically don't exist, I have no idea what the Russian field experience with it is.  I can say, however, that they're pretty uncommon--most reference photos from Syria and Crimea show Technicom RATNIK (or older) issue stuff.  You do see pro-Russian militiamen in Ukraine using it.  Special units use a wide range of stuff, from Fort armor carriers to Chinese opscore clones and repro JPCs, my point being that sometimes just because it's in use doesn't mean it's good enough.  Take it for what you will, all I know is that I've seen pictures of fabric wear and hardware rust after only light use.  Just a data point I wanted to share, no more, no less.

Definitely on to something with the "bombproof" criteria.  I remember seeing guys go on about how SOE is the thing to buy because it's quintuple-stitched with double-layer two billion denier cordura and you can hand it down to your grandchildren.  Alright, but it'll be hopelessly outdated by then.  Anyone wanna go to war with granddad's en bloc clip belt?  So really, gear doesn't have to last any more than 6-7 years of use, since any longer and it'll be outdated.  Realistically...maybe 2-3 years of use before failure?  If you look at the surplus FILBE assault packs a lot of them are torn to shit.

IMHO, between 500d as the standard, tuck tabs becoming more prevalent, snaps and buckles being reduced, etc, nylon is already light enough for most purposes.

Good points. 

I think the Rhody experience is very valid for our purposes.  And casting the net wider, all commonwealth nations have a lot of experience in this stuff, especially making do with practically nothing for many years.

The Russian stuff that I have seen, or I should say all former combloc  stuff, varied in quality.  I saw some decent stuff as well as some crap.  

And yes, the Jarhead clan sure knows how to tear up shit.  

On commercial, yeah original SOE gear was the epitome of bombproof.  I was almost as bad.  Lots of other folks went down that path as well.  

To the OP, I have been R&Ding some new stuff, along these lines, and have been trying to incorporate some new materials and construction techniques into a tried and true format.  So yeah, as we have been  discussing, I am trying to go lighter, and less water absorbant, while maintaining a good level of strength and durability.  But I am also balancing material cost and availability into it, so it won't be as sexy as V/M or whoever, but it will be a good improvement.

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Good points. 

I think the Rhody experience is very valid for our purposes...

Good question that just occurred to me I think: are there several "Rhodesian" rigs? Because when I read histories of this stuff, much of it is essentially mech inf work. They move at speed through the brush for hours, but have vehicles to back them, resupply, etc. 

But... a lot of the stuff discussed in this and other threads is along the lines of the site name: Light. So, ruck integration and living off your rig/ruck for days, or weeks. 

We don't talk of that distinction much though. Is there even a disctinction except for mounted guys don't ruck as much? Any special needs for everyday mounted/dismounted infantry? And are many rigs made, now or in the past, with this distinction, or do armies issue stuff for everyone, and you intended to make do for your job? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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