That is a very nice set up, and very close to what I ended up with.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yeah there you go.  Gives you a good view of a belt kit in action.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Once upon a time I was issued both the LBE (and, subsequently, the LBV...and then the FLC).  I had two ways that I wore it:

Field use: low at the hips,  below the waist belt for the ruck sack.  Easy to move around and position while laying prone, etc. 

Speed: chest rig height, as high as I could get it, over the waist belt on the ruck and low enough to clear the shoulder straps.  Ideal for minimizing the bounce/energy loss when rucking on the clock.  

I vastly prefer belt mounted kit to chest mounted kit.  As a rule, you get better load bearing AND better ventilation - a win-win.   I strongly believe that if you armor system is so bulky it precludes the use of belt mounted kit, your armor sucks...the Army does not share my view on this, generally.  The other benefit of belt mounted kit is it doesn't lift you several inches off the ground in the prone...you know, when you're doing IMT or fighting somewhere other than in a building/standing up.  

Ultimately, I've come to see the utility in comboing up on chest and belt mounted kit, but if I had to pick one or the other, my preference is overwhelmingly for belt mounted.

________________________

Daggers Forward - Daggers In!                                 Shape the Fight!

Essayons et Faisons                                                          Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

That's nice to hear someone else banging on about belt kit.  Well two someone else's, including Max.    

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

My actual field experience with any kit is zero.  My branch of the Navy didn't use it.  So my "experience" is limited to reading, watching, trying stuff for SHTF preparation.  Consequently, I have observations that may need to be modified and I welcome correction.

A long time ago, I became fascinated with the Israeli Ephod rig.  I've owned two different variations and regrettably, prefer the one I sold.  First, like most LBE, they aren't friendly for handguns.  My early one had a number of velcro secured web loops on the bottom of the pouches so you could attach a web belt.  I tried to think of a way that was an advantage, but at the time, lack of experience caused me to conclude it only appeared to be useful.  The holsters available at the time either sat too high, making it very inconvenient to try and access a handgun as the but was riding up against the bottom of the mag pouch.  Same problem for pistol mag pouches.  I thought the basic construction, left side panel, right side panel and back panel, was a pretty good idea.  The padding incorporated in the panels was comfortable, though I don't know whether there would have been heat retention issues in a desert or jungle environment.  Magazine pouches on the left panel seemed well planned as they were the fastest to access.  The pouches on the right puzzled me for years.  One pouch to the front, then a couple of grenade pouches, then a mag pouch to the rear.  Why?  After taking an EAG class, it made more sense.  For a right handed shooter, you load with your left hand, so the left side mags are most accessible.  During pauses, you shift magazines from the right side pouches to the ready access on the left.  I assume that was the design.  Canteens secured on right and left between the panels by the straps that connect the panels.  Buttpack on the back panel.  The shoulder straps on the earlier model were unpadded, but wide.  I thought them comfortable with a full load and they wouldn't interfere with pack straps.  Everything else would, but not the shoulder straps.  My later version has padding.  Oddly enough, the magazine pouches were too short for Galil mags, but just right for standard 30rd AR mags.

I found the rig to be very quick and easy to put on or take off and I could go prone comfortably and get a good solid shooting position.

Coming full circle, please advise where I got it right and where I got it wrong.  Thanks in advance.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Unfortunately for me I'm a cheap bastid.

Ideally, I'd like to use the same gear for green infantry Panzergrenadier role as I would for Ranger forced-entry airdrop/air assault, LRRP, and/or CT.  The body armor / plate carrier trend in ungodly hot climes doesn't help.

It don't work that way. 

I've always wanted to set up webbing British-style with a short-back ruck.  Then I have to do something like winter mountain strategic surveillance requiring a Mongosso (TM) ruck to carry puffy clothes, sleep gear, chow, and batteries.

I've been a foot soldier with a vehicle; foot soldier, leather personnel carrier mobile; LRRP, jungle (prickly heat that makes you want to suck-start a .45) and hot-dry; LRRP, cold-wet and cold-dry; rubber boat and surface swimmer;  and both green and CT sniper and assaulter.   No one set of kit fits all missions.

I keep eye-balling JayJay's Gen4 belt kit and some variation of the DG shortback frame rucks.

I don't know how many hours I've been slave to the industrial sewing machine -- then all the sets of kit I've given away.

My kid's just learning this stuff now, having been a rifleman, radioman, and crew-served gunner.

Dammit.

I have tried lots of different belt kit setup over the years. First as a recruit when we were issued old school Marshall-aid pistol belts and Y-harness (M1951 Field Pack Suspenders). I have tried various MOLLE and sewn on pouch systems, with everything from narrow padded belts to proper UK-style hip pads.

It truly is my preferred setup for infatry type missions, due to the following factors:

-Less bulky on the front of the body, making it better for going prone.

-Less bulk on the front also makes IMT much easier than a system that has all the mags on the front.

-Better ventilation of the upper body when patrolling.

-Better access to mags for proper prone reloads behind cover

There are some challenges when it comes to vehicles and carrying rucks, but they are workable.

This is my last setup, which consists of the first version of the First Spear MOLLE patrolling harness with a First Spear cobra buckle rigger belt. It has more or less stayed the same, with the exception of mag pouches and rear pouch. I have varied the style of mag pouches a bit, to see what I liked best. I have now ended up with a full lid version with SR buckle closure. For the rear pouch I have gone back and forth between a butt pack and two smaller pouches. I finally decided on the two smaller pouches, for the smaller profile.

I added a sternum strap.

It's not about surviving, it's about winning.

Damn, common sense is breaking out all around this place.  And it makes me nervous.   But seriously it's like a breath of fresh air to hear guys talk about things that actually work for them, regardless of whether they're the latest or old classics.  

I think it might be a key point, to be able to take the best from both old and new and create LBE systems that actually work.   We went through this period where new improved BA was introduced, and with that systems that were designed to leverage plate carriers to the max for carrying additional equipment.  I think that concept has plateaued, and forward thinking individuals are moving beyond this.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Truth be told, there is almost nothing for which I like/want chest mounted kit.  Most "chest" rigs are just belt kit that sits over your abs. That works well with body armor that has all the PALS on the front and covers so much torso that it precludes wearing actual belt kit, and that's reality for a lot of us.  That doesn't make it good, though.

I remember during my first tour in Iraq when we had the original IBA, some of the taller guys cut the padding off LCE suspenders and just wore that under their IBA.  Even with my somewhat dachshund like proportions, I've never been able to pull that off (at 5'10") with the IBA/OTV/iOTV/MSV family. 

________________________

Daggers Forward - Daggers In!                                 Shape the Fight!

Essayons et Faisons                                                          Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

I should add that I've been eyeing and extremely jealous of the Brit's belt kit since I first saw it.  It's everything my old LCE was and then some.  I took a look at Jay Jay's...if I could justify it, I'd have dropped the cash already. 

My current setup is based around the idea that I'll be wearing some/all of my issued armor.  At the moment that's Crye stuff.  The belt is nice, but pretty limited in terms of MOLLE.  The other challenge, is the sheer amount of stuff I "need" to carry.  Right now, that belt is setup with 3x pistol Taco, 1x2 M4 Taco, IFAK, dump, and my M17 holster.  I'll squeeze something on the holster side...knife and compass, probably.  The limited MOLLE means there isn't space for Nalgene/utility pouches...a MAJOR bummer.

That gets paired with a HSGI AO chest rig with 4x1 M4 mag pouches and my EUD case kit.  I'll likely wedge a radio pouch (at least one) between the inner and outer cummerbund on the armor carrier itself.

It's definitely a LOT easier to setup a belt when you don't lose real estate to pistol mag pouches and the pistol itself. 

________________________

Daggers Forward - Daggers In!                                 Shape the Fight!

Essayons et Faisons                                                          Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

Dorsai posted:

 

A long time ago, I became fascinated with the Israeli Ephod rig.  I've owned two different variations and regrettably, prefer the one I sold.  First, like most LBE, they aren't friendly for handguns.  My early one had a number of velcro secured web loops on the bottom of the pouches so you could attach a web belt.  I tried to think of a way that was an advantage, but at the time, lack of experience caused me to conclude it only appeared to be useful.  The holsters available at the time either sat too high, making it very inconvenient to try and access a handgun as the but was riding up against the bottom of the mag pouch.  Same problem for pistol mag pouches.  I thought the basic construction, left side panel, right side panel and back panel, was a pretty good idea.  The padding incorporated in the panels was comfortable, though I don't know whether there would have been heat retention issues in a desert or jungle environment.  Magazine pouches on the left panel seemed well planned as they were the fastest to access.  The pouches on the right puzzled me for years.  One pouch to the front, then a couple of grenade pouches, then a mag pouch to the rear.  Why?  After taking an EAG class, it made more sense.  For a right handed shooter, you load with your left hand, so the left side mags are most accessible.  During pauses, you shift magazines from the right side pouches to the ready access on the left.  I assume that was the design.  Canteens secured on right and left between the panels by the straps that connect the panels.  Buttpack on the back panel.  The shoulder straps on the earlier model were unpadded, but wide.  I thought them comfortable with a full load and they wouldn't interfere with pack straps.  Everything else would, but not the shoulder straps.  My later version has padding.  Oddly enough, the magazine pouches were too short for Galil mags, but just right for standard 30rd AR mags.

I found the rig to be very quick and easy to put on or take off and I could go prone comfortably and get a good solid shooting position.

Coming full circle, please advise where I got it right and where I got it wrong.  Thanks in advance.

Images?

Been meaning to put this up for a while but here it is.  Running webbing (discussed with @Diz a while back) for my day job work kit in the bush.  Much more comfortable than running a heavy surveyors vest and more utilitarian than a chest pack and day pack combo.  Old school DPM woodland since it was on sale and I wanted to give it a spin before investing more into the setup.  

Overall I think for the woods in mixed weather this would have been great as an option for gun toting specific work especially paired with the shortback rucks:

54FB7EE2-808E-4932-BDA1-33745373BAD542927F12-F095-432E-8CBE-C00E9363D536

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Better view of the kit.  Basically the same stuff I’d carry for infantry work but replace the coloured ribbon with mags.

Chest pack here as well for when I have to carry 20+ rolls of the marking ribbon but otherwise I keep my fieldbook and tablet in the commander’s pouch on the right side

74E73A81-88F4-40AA-AC53-E2469C9073BDF6E92EE9-D43E-4183-9065-36958D594F40

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That’s a whole lot of surveyors tape! 

is that a Carothers knife in there? 

I’ve always liked the Brit webbing, I wound up using a pretty substantial belt kit towards the end of my time in the Marine Corps with LAR. It worked out really well in that role and if I had continued on I probably would’ve invested in the Velocity Systems jungle kit 

senorlechero posted:

That’s a whole lot of surveyors tape! 

is that a Carothers knife in there? 

I’ve always liked the Brit webbing, I wound up using a pretty substantial belt kit towards the end of my time in the Marine Corps with LAR. It worked out really well in that role and if I had continued on I probably would’ve invested in the Velocity Systems jungle kit 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Sir it is a Carothers blade; been very happy with them so far.  I looked at the Mayflower setup but not sure how the smaller belt would be with the pouches hanging down low

I've been putting together a set of belt order, so I might as well post it here.

Harness/yoke is a Platatac BK Harness. It's like a low profile version of the British PLCE yoke, but fitted with a few rows of PALS webbing. You can wear it under a plate carrier or add a hydration carrier to the back.

Belt and pad is a British roll pin web belt and a Platatac  3S Belt Pad Mk II

Left to right -

Crossfire LAND 125 200rnd Minimi pouch,

ADA LAND 125 "Hexy" canteen cover,

Crossfire LAND 125 200rnd Minimi pouch,

DDC ICLCE "Hexy" canteen cover,

Ontario M11 knife in an old Phrobis III M9 bayonet scabbard (Leatherman Rebar carried in mag pouch on scabbard),

Crossfire LAND 125  Medium GP pouch.

Most of the kit was in dissimilar camo patterns such as Auscam, Desert Auscam and Multicam, so I spray painted most of it all a uniform field dark earth colour. colours can be changed at the drop of a hat with a judicious application of spray paints in the right colours. 

Other accessories sometimes worn on this setup include a NOD pouch and a hydration carrier.

"I am more afraid of an army of a hundred sheep led by a lion than an army of a hundred lions led by a sheep."

Frederick Russell Burnham, Taking Chances

Oh yeah that brings back memories.  Before all this Gucci gear we used to hand-camo our kit with Kiwi shoe dye, spray paint, etc.  Nothing wrong with it; good field expedient.

And PLCE, as much as I've tried to improve on the basic belt and harness layout, it's pretty much dialed in, especially a "hippo"  with 6-point attachment on the yoke.  It just works.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Since we're doing some show and tell I'll chime in. I'm in the "figuring out" phase of how I want to set up my belt kit. I had quite a bit of time in my LC2 rig which was set up for 8-12hr patrols. Looking at the rig from above going clockwise were 2x mag pouches with 6 stanags, 2qt canteen pouch for canteen with drinking straw, butt pack for poncho roll and mre, 2x 1qt canteen pouches, one with cup and stand, holster, mag pouch for random bs or 3 more mags. From there I went to a chest rig/hydration carrier set up that was lighter as I started playing more MOUT sites and had shorter patrols which were well served with a lighter kit. I'm now taking that "lighter kit" mentality back to the belt rig and adding in all this fun new stuff I've learned here at LF.

Current "gen 1" kit is a cobbling of things I already had. Base is an ELCS belt and harness. Stuff again clockwise from the front - grimloc for gloves, double pistol mag pouch, double double mag pouch with kabar laced in behind, prc126/nod/gp pouch with dump pouch on the front, 2qt canteen, IFAK, canteen pouch for doo dads, canteen, holster, double mag pouch, compass pouch.

This kit definitely reminded me how much I like the belt kit...especially in the humid nasty summer. I do need a wider belt as the bottoms of the pouches dug into my hips. I'd like to upgrade from the 2qt to something similar but retain the hydro tube. New pouches will be lighter and less water absorbent. Last, I really missed having at least 1 open top rifle mag pouch so I plan on adding one behind one of the flap top pouches. Hopefully that will help keep the mag from popping out and still give me a faster reload. I've picked up a jay jays belt and am looking at Velocity for the other pouches.

Longer article and infos

Right on, sounds like you're definitely on the right track.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Well, you know, I happen to like Roosian kit, but it's an acquired taste.  Much like Brit kit, some issue stuff is crap, some of it not bad.  Aftermarket stuff the same.  Just realize what you're getting.  In general combloc equipment, not to mention weapons, can be crudely made, not necessarily designed to last a lifetime, but usually works for the intended purpose.  If you keep this in mind, then you won't be disappointed.  

The different SMERSH rigs have a good rep, in general, for what they are.  You won't find many reviews, over here, because nobody but collectors and AK fans use them.  But if you dig around on some Euro sites you might find some end-users, maybe even the actual former-users.  

It's kinda like apples n oranges.   Not really a fair comparison to say V/M, LBT, 1st Spear, etc.  More like the lowest gov't contract bidder.  Which is not to say it won't work, just not the same as you're probably used to.  

But to answer your question, the guys that I've known, who do this stuff for a living, never used combloc stuff; they always found domestic kit that would fit.  Now there might be various reasons for this, like they always had better available,  or didn't use those weapons systems, or were just plain prejudiced against it.  

As a practical note, there is usually better available.  For instance, John at UW Gear makes custom AK chest rigs and individual pouches, that are quality materials and techniques, in our camo patterns.  And at reasonable prices.  So why use combloc stuff, unless that's all that is available.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Interesting to look at the Ephod, Smersh, SAAV rigs etc. Currently sizing up my beltkit situation, been using Solo Ints commanders molle set for range periods over the last year or so, finding it twists at the molle pad, pouch fixings and waistbelt when heavily loaded (6-12Kg's) for bootruns etc. Also struggles to fit 58 pat waterbottles. Drooling over Jayjays commanders/chameleon set. Anyone used the Jayjays beltkit?

Can confirm, I've now had them modify a bergen to my liking, craftsmanship is better than I could've hoped. Also bought their lightfighter daysack which "topflaps" very well in the lid of my shortback infantry bergen. Fitness testing now involves carrying a hell of a lot, replacing the issued straps and padding the back has really helped against chafe. Working on a large ruck at all Diz?

Speaking of belt kits. 

Diz, I need a leather belt rig for two flintlock pistol holsters, small cartridge pouches for each and able to hold two cutlasses, one on each side. Preferably with something skull and crossbones on the rig. Then got to rig up some kinda emergency floatation device to my plate carrier. 

Half the county is flooded and somebodies got to keep these meth heads in line, I’m gonna get my maritime patrol division. 

Running wolf- A good start would be the 1897 Swedish Mauser Belt. 

I actually have a hiking rig made with one. I added a leather 1911 leather flap holster and double mag pouch and good to go

Location Texas.

 

"So what are you gonna do if we get hit on this trip?" "Me?, I'm going to shoot some good pics of you nuking their ass. You do your job, I'll do mine. If I have to do yours,(unless you're the medic) we're probably all screwed!" - Standard reply , from Desert Storm through Iraqi Freedom

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