Kicking it Old School: Belts and Suspenders for LBE

shoobe01 posted:
Diz posted:

Good points. 

I think the Rhody experience is very valid for our purposes...

Good question that just occurred to me I think: are there several "Rhodesian" rigs? Because when I read histories of this stuff, much of it is essentially mech inf work. They move at speed through the brush for hours, but have vehicles to back them, resupply, etc. 

 

As a Mech- Infantryman (Australian) I ran a Platatac Peacekeeper Mk1 Vest, at that time we were all wearing chest rigs over armour. 

I started off with the basic issued belt rig, the most common setup was 5X Minimi pouches and a British style 6 point harness., pretty much like this:

We certainly didn't "ruck" as much as our light inf brothers but we still did quite a lot, and this worked very well.

This was 2005-2008 era, after that the focus shifted more to urban stuff and we were all running SORD rigs with open top shingles etc.

I see people going to things like the Hayley Strategic (less so) and Mayflower (Recce Rig) lower profile rigs along with a battle belt, to me that looks ideal and a good progression  of what we were using back then.

Even Platatac are onto the Mk4 variant of the Peacekeeper which looks pretty decent but I would want some padding on it unless it was over armour:

Well, yeah there are examples of specific items that were "tanker" gear, "mountain troop", or "paratroop" gear, etc. but these mainly just supplemented the std issue to everybody.  Until SOCOM was established.  Now you have special missions troops with their own unique kit.  A lot of which trickles down to big army.  

In general, it's usually about what the infantry needs to fight.  Although they may have some kind of transport to get them in the neighborhood, the approach march and battle was usually on foot.  So we saw some kind of fighting load out, along with some kind of field transport pack.

This began to change with the advent of the "armored"  division, where tanks and personnel carriers were married to the grunts.  Culminating in "mobility" warfare late in the 20th century.  Along with the introduction of improved BA, the fighting load out changed to something easier to wear while "mounted" in vehicles.  And packs became largely just luggage in the vehicles.

At the same time, special missions troops still did a lot of "dismounted" patrolling, and developed their own fighting load outs, which included some of the classics, updated for the modern age.

So what it depends on, is how much the soldier must carry, until the next re-supply.  If it's every 2-3 days, it will certainly look different than if it's a week-long patrol.  If it's 100 deg in the jungle, versus 20 deg up in the mountains.  If you're working out of vehicles, or on foot.  Whether we're talking light infantry or SF.    

In the Rhody example.  When they went "external", they typically inserted by helo, and then patrolled on foot to an objective.  They carried different combinations of webbing and chest rigs for fighting load out, and large Bergens with supplies for whatever the mission duration was.  This is a fairly typical task for special forces in UW, or FID.  And it happens to look a lot like what you or I might face in a similar situation.  You may be inserted by "SUV" instead of "K" car, but your load out and mission may be quite similar.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

This began to change with the advent of the "armored"  division, where tanks and personnel carriers were married to the grunts.  Culminating in "mobility" warfare late in the 20th century.  Along with the introduction of improved BA, the fighting load out changed to something easier to wear while "mounted" in vehicles.  And packs became largely just luggage in the vehicles.

Perhaps in your (horse) Cavalry units before they were forcibly converted to steel?

Same same M1903A3 rifle but way different webbing.  Specialist pouches for BAR.

 

Learning to love belt kit again, usually I use plate carrier or molle vest with BA. Harness is swedish army, generic molle pad and issued finnish army pouches. If someone wonders what I'm wearing, it is our issued lightly insulated patrol coveralls.

Does the Israeli Ephod qualify as a belt rig or something in between belt and chest?

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Not that particular unit, but I have a FirstSpear 6/12 Patrolling Harness that's not too far off. The thing is very comfortable and manages the weight well. The shoulder straps are thick, though, so it's not great with adding a pack.

 

I put this one together as more of a "hot weather" setup based on what I saw in the jungle thread. BFG Beltminus with Mayflower Jungle pouches. Works great with throwing an additional pack on it, Brit style.

 

 

This last one is the closest to ol' Alice. Purely made up of spare unused stuff. Very light, though. Works well for both 5.56 and 3.08

 

Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:

This last one is the closest to ol' Alice. Purely made up of spare unused stuff. Very light, though. Works well for both 5.56 and 3.08

 

Any problems with the canteens?

I wouldn't want to be riding around in vehicles with them for long. I threw this rig together out of spare parts, so I can't say it's been used all that much. But I've used the same canteens in similar positions through other classes, including a SUT course. Seemed to work out just fine.

Yeah I did a little R&D on this stuff in the weeks leading up to the holidays.  The shoulder harness thickness is something you have to goldilocks; you want enough for comfort but you have be able to work with ruck straps, and also be able to mount your rifle stock.

The canteens, as Linz mentioned are a sore point with me.  The US designs always poke the caps up above the belt line so they interfere with the ruck frame.  I prefer the Commonwealth method of flush-mounting the pouches, so they create a shelf for the ruck.  Yes that can create problems as well, but you get around that by using an extended width belt pad, and/or using bungees to tie the pouches all together.  That way they're not all flopping around when you're doing "actions on...".          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I love the new Mayflower pouches, but it seems I got short changed on the ammo pouches with the Brit snap closures. 

Ive always loved the creation of a platform with the webbing to help support the rucksack

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

I had one of those Ephod vests years ago.  I always considered it more like a tac vest.  The waist area is padded but doesn't transfer any of the load to the hips.

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

Brigand_Actual posted:
Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:

This last one is the closest to ol' Alice. Purely made up of spare unused stuff. Very light, though. Works well for both 5.56 and 3.08

 

Any problems with the canteens?

I wouldn't want to be riding around in vehicles with them for long. I threw this rig together out of spare parts, so I can't say it's been used all that much. But I've used the same canteens in similar positions through other classes, including a SUT course. Seemed to work out just fine.

Yup- they looked a bit like trap for straps  or whatnot.

The Naglene  canteens: I swapped across to them 18 months ago: water quality became better & in bulk refills...yours are obvious.

What I was concerned about was the ruggedness of the cap & strap assy: a couple of the retaining straps got chopped or partially severed from normal in/out vehicle usage.

Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:
Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:

This last one is the closest to ol' Alice. Purely made up of spare unused stuff. Very light, though. Works well for both 5.56 and 3.08

 

Any problems with the canteens?

I wouldn't want to be riding around in vehicles with them for long. I threw this rig together out of spare parts, so I can't say it's been used all that much. But I've used the same canteens in similar positions through other classes, including a SUT course. Seemed to work out just fine.

Yup- they looked a bit like trap for straps  or whatnot.

The Naglene  canteens: I swapped across to them 18 months ago: water quality became better & in bulk refills...yours are obvious.

What I was concerned about was the ruggedness of the cap & strap assy: a couple of the retaining straps got chopped or partially severed from normal in/out vehicle usage.

Ok, I see what you're asking. Like I said, that's actually just a "spare parts" set up. I pretty much never use it, preferring a fully enclosed config seen in the first two. I also don't really use the Nalgene canteens all that much. I usually have a 40 oz steel widemouth one with nested cup and stove and a separate wide-mouth bottle, both enclosed within the pouch. 

I'm also not super high speed about hopping in and out of vehicles. Mostly using this stuff on trips through the woods and training classes.

Brigand_Actual posted:
Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:
Linz posted:
Brigand_Actual posted:

This last one is the closest to ol' Alice. Purely made up of spare unused stuff. Very light, though. Works well for both 5.56 and 3.08

 

Any problems with the canteens?

I wouldn't want to be riding around in vehicles with them for long. I threw this rig together out of spare parts, so I can't say it's been used all that much. But I've used the same canteens in similar positions through other classes, including a SUT course. Seemed to work out just fine.

Yup- they looked a bit like trap for straps  or whatnot.

The Naglene  canteens: I swapped across to them 18 months ago: water quality became better & in bulk refills...yours are obvious.

What I was concerned about was the ruggedness of the cap & strap assy: a couple of the retaining straps got chopped or partially severed from normal in/out vehicle usage.

Ok, I see what you're asking. Like I said, that's actually just a "spare parts" set up. I pretty much never use it, preferring a fully enclosed config seen in the first two. I also don't really use the Nalgene canteens all that much. I usually have a 40 oz steel widemouth one with nested cup and stove and a separate wide-mouth bottle, both enclosed within the pouch. 

I'm also not super high speed about hopping in and out of vehicles. Mostly using this stuff on trips through the woods and training classes.

Thanks.

Once I pick up a few more of them (was hoping to pick some up while transiting thru SHOT: postage is a killer) I was thinking of a destruction test: just how tough is that cap?  How well does a full canteen stand up to being used as a hammer?

"40 oz steel widemouth"

Now, that's unusual.  Image of the set up please?

Sure. Keep in mind that I do way more camping/hiking than gunfighting, so my gear leans more towards that side of the spectrum. 90% of the time, this is what you'll find me carrying in pouches.

 

Self Reliance Outfitters / Pathfinder School steel canteen, cup, and stove combo. I had to dig for some older pictures that aren't all discolored by fire.

 

The canteen has a much wider mouth, which is convenient. It's not 1L Nalgene bottle wide, but wider than standard. The cap is also no-snag, but it's also not attached.

This is the cup and stove separately. The canteen nests with USGI style, but these are slightly better IMO. I prefer this folding handle style.

This is a size comparison to the Nalgene canteen. The big difference is in the top, since it has to fit in standard USGI pouches. There's much more area to the "dome."

The other thing you'll usually find me with is a Vargo BOT, short for Bottle-Pot. It holds 1L. Easy to cook with, store food or water, and eat out of. It fits in most of my pouches, except for the BAE ones you saw in the "spare parts" belt. 

Nalgene caps are easy to modify.  Clip the "keeper", leaving enough to be able to punch a hole through.  Pull the keeper off the mouth/neck of the bottle, throw away.  Punch hole in the excess tab, thread 550 cord through, tie off to neck.  How much slack you leave is entirely up to you, but you probably want the loop around the neck to be just loose enough to swivel, so when you unscrew the cap, the loop travels with the cap (if that makes sense).  

Stainless bottles are where it's at though, IMHO.   They'll definitely take more abuse, if single walled can be used to boil/purify water, doesn't get "stained" with drink powders as easily.  I personally find drinking out of wide mouth bottles to be a Pain.  Having said that, 10th SFG specifically use to ISSUE 2x wide mouth Nalgene bottles per person.  The reason? (as explained to me)  Easier to fill and pack with snow for melting.  For me, I would carry 1 wide mouth and 1 narrow mouth (as I find they are easier to drink out of....I don't waste as much water). 

I would "mark/use" the wide mouth as "Dirty" water and the narrow as "Clean/Potable".  The wide mouth can be used with purifying tabs, or to boil, or to pump from to the narrow.  Of course, being stainless bottles, if push came to shove, I could fill both bottles with dirty and purify the narrow one later with boiling/bleach.

Nothing wrong with the Pathfinder bottles, they work as well as any.  Another way to go is Klean Kanteen.  

Wide mouth 40oz single wall:  https://www.amazon.com/Klean-K..._dp_s_web_2594909011

And to me, narrower mouth 40oz single wall:  https://www.amazon.com/Klean-K...V&th=1&psc=1

 


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

I like wide mouth for utility but they suck for drinking on the move. Going through a climbing gym couple years ago I found a lid that is a wide mouth to narrow adapter. Basically screw it in and it has a smaller lid in the middle you drink from and when time to fill you just take the whole thing off like normal. Awesome kit till someone stole my nalgene. Got to get a couple more when I get home. It’s made by Human Gear

I use those Human Gear tops on my 1 lier bottles. I am using the VS jungle canteen pouches on the side of my Kifaru Tailgunner. They just barely fit height wise. I use one ss and the other plastic or whatever the non BPA stuff is. Unless I have to melt snow I use a steripen as my primary water fixer. Not sure the ss is worth the squeeze weight wise. If I am melting snow I'll do it a Mors pot(1.8lt) or the snowpeak cup(750ml). Being able to melt or boil water in the water bottle is interesting but.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

I was told the same reason for the wide mouthed Norweagian canteens as well. So you could stuff snow into them and make water while on the move. As of me I use the wide mouth nalgenes with little issue, in the winter I turn them upside down so that the water freezes at the bottom not the top.

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

Thanks for the info & ideas.

Cytez...was considering that & thing the tolerance of the 550 cord around the neck might be tricky: too tight & it binds...winding the cord around the neck.

Was considering cutting the connector between the lid & neck ring & joining the two with a substitute (550 cord, braided SS wire...)

Weren't the IDF issuing widemouthed military canteens as well?

 

runningwolf posted:

I like wide mouth for utility but they suck for drinking on the move. Going through a climbing gym couple years ago I found a lid that is a wide mouth to narrow adapter. Basically screw it in and it has a smaller lid in the middle you drink from and when time to fill you just take the whole thing off like normal. Awesome kit till someone stole my nalgene. Got to get a couple more when I get home. It’s made by Human Gear

This?

https://www.humangear.com/gear/capcap

_____________________________________________

 

Doug

If I mention Corona, I ain't talking about beer.

 

"It's your turn to do until it's not."  TA

 

"Afterall.... if you get yourself into a fair fight.. you really haven't learned anything in all the time you have spent on Lightfighter, your tactics suck, and you don't deserve to breed."  David Reeves

 

JOINED:  9/20/09     LOCATION:  Outside of KSA Finally!

I don't have SS wire...….I have a metric shit-ton of 550/650/750 and type 1 (90lbs) cord hanging around.  Stainless steel bottles?  I tie a slip knot, to be able to remove the cap, so I can use the bottle to boil and not melt the cord/cap.  Nalgene bottles?  I would tie a FIXED knot (bowline), loose enough to move freely around the neck but not worrying about wanting to take it off.

Slight derail......I've gotten away from carrying type III paracord, in favor of type 1'ish.  The only time in bush-crafting/survival, I could see needing 550lbs strength cord, would be to rappel my fat ass off a building or down a cliff face.  Lashing together wood for a shelter?  90lbs should work.  Guide lines for a tarp?  90lbs.  MAYBE, if I was hanging a deer, 550 would be needed, and I still carry SOME.  But MOST of the line I carry now is of the type 1 variety.  I can carry MORE of it, and it's still lighter and takes up less room than 550.  Get some Kevlar kite string and it COULD be just as strong.


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

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