With two exceptions, the only carbines that I've owned or shot have been Colts. The first was a BM and I sold it quickly. The second is this LMT that I put together. This one's a keeper.

I have a few carbines and I prefer them to be similarly set up, for ease of use. I'm not that good at shooting and if I have to remember to do something different on a rifle it slows me down even more. Having said that, I wanted to try a few different pieces of equipment to see how well they work.

Carbine Set-up:
LMT Lower
LMT Upper w/14.5", 1:7 barrel
LMT SOPMOD Stock
Colt F/A BCG
Colt Charging Handle
Badger Ordnance TacLatch
KAC Rail Panels
YHM Extended FH
Tango Down Pistol Grip
Tango Down VFG
Tango Down PR-4 Sling Mount
Aimpoint ML2
LaRue Tactical 7.0 Rail
LaRue Tactical M68CCO Mount
LaRue Tactical/Viking Tactics Sling
Viking Tactics Light Mount




I started out with a complete LMT lower that I got from some friends on another forum. They had arranged for a special run from LMT and graciously offered me one for a really good price. The lower came with the SOPMOD stock and Tango Down pistol grip. The lower also had special markings on the side, though it was not engraved. DamonL on this forum hooked me up with an LMT upper (no handguard, charging handle, or BCG) direct from the factory. From LaRue Tactical, I got the 7.0 rail. I had a nationally-known gunshop install the rail and permanently attach a YHM extended flash suppressor so that the upper would meet the legal requirement for a 16" barrel.

When I got it back, I put on KAC panels, Colt charging handle with Badger Ordnance Tac Latch, Colt BCG (shrouded, full-circle), and Troy rear sight, Viking Tactics/LaRue sling and Viking Tactics light mount, and Tango Down VFG and PR-4 sling mount. The PR-4 is new for me; my Colts have the G.G.&G. sling end plate that requires removal of the factory-staked end plate. The PR-4 is better, but is not without a trade-off. The VTac light mount was also new. Incredibly simple and very inexpensive, it has made me question the need for another SureFire M952C.

After getting all that stuff together, I remembered that somewhere I had a new LaRue M68CCO mount with lever safety mount. I found a guy with a used, excellent condition Aimpoint ML2, mounted it in the LaRue mount and went to the range to sight in the rifle.

It's always best to function test parts before sending them off for modification. The upper was not cycling properly. I should have put the upper on my Colt SBR and ran it for awhile. Instead, I had it sent to the gunshop for work before shooting it. I promptly returned the complete upper to the gunshop and, after fixing the upper, they informed me that the problem was with LMT as LMT hadn't drilled the barrel for the gas system. Uh-huh. . . . Upon return, the rifle worked fine, but I'm not going to plug those guys on this thread.

I wasn't quite finished. Something was missing. It hit me quickly, but I also realized that I couldn't do this on my own. Whether irrational or not, I could not bring myself to spray paint the carbine.

I called Pat Rogers and asked him if he could help me out. He agreed and I headed over, after a stop at Quantico Arms for some supplies.

We prepped the carbine by spraying it down with 725 and then putting paper towels down the muzzle and in the ends of the optic. Pat started off by putting down the base coat of khaki.



Then, using his trade-secret camouflage method, he put down a second coat of olive drab, followed with some additional highlights of forest green. I understand this process normally takes weeks elsewhere and costs hundreds of dollars. . . . Pat helped me get over my fear of depreciating a collectible asset. The LMT is likely going to be my primary school gun and I don't plan on selling it.




I've shot the carbine some more since painting it. The PR-4 coupled with the LT/VTac sling is a tremendous improvement over the G.G.&G./Wildnerness single point sling set-up on the other carbines. Over all, it's more versatile, especially with the quick-detach swivels that snap into the PR-4 and LT7.0. The only downside is that the stock will not close fully and casing it in the Eagle M4 discreet case is tight. The light holder is remarkable and coupled with a SureFire G2, it's an unbelievably cheap and effective weapon-mounted light. Even if I didn't have it mounted on the LMT, I'd want it around as a back-up to the 952 on the Colt.

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by USMC03:
Beautiful blaster!!! Well executed

Brother, you are my role model!

St8shtr: Take the plunge, brother! It's only a $1,200 to $1,500 dollar weapon, when fully loaded!

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

quote:
I understand this process normally takes weeks elsewhere and costs hundreds of dollars. . . . Pat helped me get over my fear of depreciating a collectible asset.


Ha! You haven't finished paying me. That 10k of 5.56 was only a start.
Plus, the fee for my Faithful Cur who baby sat your Daughter. Yeah, we'll have to figure that in too El Capitain
Hooah, Chief! Just remember, she's a supermodel in the making and you didn't get a signed release from her!

Speaking of ammo, USSS_Steve and I are working 15k of 5.56 now from that course down at Fayetteville. You know how long it takes to clean that much brass?

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

Paul, I use loctite, where appropriate, and then mark anything that could move, but shouldn't, with a paint pen that I got from an arts and crafts store. The idea came from Pat. I will remark everything on the painted carbine this week, when I get a moment to do so. . . .

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

Bro, that rifle is horrible. You don't want that. Send it to me immediately so you don't have to be burdened with it. Big Grin

Those of us who know must save those that don't from those that think they do.

"If you count 'three', mister, you'll never hear the man count 'ten'".-John Wayne as Sean Thornton in The Quiet Man

My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.-Exodus 22:24

Nice set up. You and Pat did a good job, Van Gogh would be proud. I have been using Krylon for a few years now on my rifles and it works great. A few dips in paint thinner and a bit of scrubbing and then a oil down and the weapon is as good as new. I used Bowflage (and still do on some of my stuff that I don't want to deal with the extra BS in the clean up process)for a few years, but it rubs off with sweat and cleaner really quick. I don't know what you used, but Krylon gets real sticky as you lube and shoot.
That Guy.
"Respect for religion must be reestablished. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials must be curtailed. Assistance to foreign lands must be stopped or we shall bankrupt ourselves. The people should be forced to work and not depend on government for subsistence." - Cicero, 60 B.C.
Sweet rifle, but that G2 WILL fail on you when you shoot it unless you pick up the shock isolated bezel. It will work just fine as long as the bulb does not get hot, but once it is on for a while and you fire a shot (ie, exactly when you need it most probably) it will burn out.

Its a cheap part $20 or so, but could save your life!

Rick

The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility. John A. Fisher

The two AR'S I posted in the link were once covered in Krylon.
2XAR'S
I painted a few rifles before. If you haven't already you will experience the the joy of removing paint from an AR. Just knowing it can be removed and possibly done better next time. Guarantees this.
90% of the weapon can usually be paint free in a couple of hours. Then forward progress comes to a crawl removing that last 10%.........Then you can start on the accessories.
That is one of the better paint jobs I have seen.
Also, I recently put together an LMT. The upper and Lower that is. Hard to explain. Like the Military Colt. You just know it was assembled with care.
The first time I ever held one of the cheaper AR models was after I retired. It just didn't feel right.
We use Colts here. I notice the difference the first time handling my BM. Shoots just fine.
The LMT doesn't give me that.........sqaure peg inserted in round hole feeling.
The G2 is a temporary answer. I'm going to put an OD or KH G2 on the carbine with either the shock-proof bezel or with the new SF LED module.

Thanks for the compliments, brothers. . . .

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

quote:
The first time I ever held one of the cheaper AR models was after I retired. It just didn't feel right.
We use Colts here. I notice the difference the first time handling my BM. Shoots just fine.
The LMT doesn't give me that.........sqaure peg inserted in round hole feeling.


I noticed the same thing the first time I worked the bolt on an LMT, compared to a BM. Same same first time I worked the bolt on a Colt. No comparison. Very much like working the action of a $500 1911 and then hardly being able to feel the link swing on a Wilson or Baer. Hard to describe, but I know exactly what ya mean.

Those of us who know must save those that don't from those that think they do.

"If you count 'three', mister, you'll never hear the man count 'ten'".-John Wayne as Sean Thornton in The Quiet Man

My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.-Exodus 22:24

quote:
Originally posted by El_Abogado:
The PR-4 is better, but is not without a trade-off. The only downside is that the stock will not close fully and casing it in the Eagle M4 discreet case is tight.


I experienced the same issue. It was a deal breaker for me. I have to have the stock collasped on my AR to get it to fit in my patrol unit locking rack.

My solution came from KAC P/N 24103. I picked it up from Wes at MSTN

You can find a good pick of it mounted here.

Hope this helps! Nice rifle!

 

__________________________

-- "Experience, it is said, comes from making mistakes and living through it." --George Williams--

Want to be one? Just ask one.

quote:
Originally posted by kgoerz:
If you haven't already you will experience the the joy of removing paint from an AR. Just knowing it can be removed and possibly done better next time. Guarantees this..


My first coat of paint on my carbine was with Krylon. The second coat was with Testors Model Master Acrylic. Any recommendations on what to use to remove it. I'd like to try a different pattern/color scheme, but I don't want to just put another coat on.

Karl

 -------------------------------------

"You should respect his position if for no other reason than he has the power to send loyalists like Chris and JCustis to crush your little rebellion if you get caught seditiously half stepping. " - basicload

Just one of the Shepherd's sheepdogs. Joshua 24:15 Matthew 10:28

quote:
Originally posted by Haji:
quote:
The first time I ever held one of the cheaper AR models was after I retired. It just didn't feel right.
We use Colts here. I notice the difference the first time handling my BM. Shoots just fine.
The LMT doesn't give me that.........sqaure peg inserted in round hole feeling.


I noticed the same thing the first time I worked the bolt on an LMT, compared to a BM. Same same first time I worked the bolt on a Colt. No comparison.


I have come to the conclusion I am just not very deft. (I commented on a similar subject over at M4c and I learned you shouldn't touch your own hot button topics when inebriated. Cool) Anyhow, I just don't notice the difference. I've shot alot of M16's over the years, I owned an SP1 and now an RRA. I couldn't tell ya the difference in function between any of 'em. All have performed quite admirably. Either I've had exceptional luck with my RRA or they're not quite as second rate as many believe. (I hope it's the latter, as the many of the local PD's and sheriff's offices are issued RRA's around here.)

I am not stupid enough to argue the experience of instructor's like Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers. I've heard/seen the data indicating Colt's perform best in their classes. But I find it hard to believe that Colt and FN are the only AR platforms available that qualify as tactically reliable. And before the TDP gets brought up, the 6920 is not built according to the TDP, as it is not select-fire. (If we're gonna be technical, let's be technical.)

I hope to someday run my carbine through one of Pat's classes. I guess I'll find how well built it really is at that time. Until then I'll just be a cocky ol' @$$hole who thinks you can get quality for a more reasonable price than what Colt wants. Big Grin

Karl

 -------------------------------------

"You should respect his position if for no other reason than he has the power to send loyalists like Chris and JCustis to crush your little rebellion if you get caught seditiously half stepping. " - basicload

Just one of the Shepherd's sheepdogs. Joshua 24:15 Matthew 10:28

quote:
Originally posted by KClapp:
quote:
Originally posted by kgoerz:
If you haven't already you will experience the the joy of removing paint from an AR. Just knowing it can be removed and possibly done better next time. Guarantees this..


My first coat of paint on my carbine was with Krylon. The second coat was with Testors Model Master Acrylic. Any recommendations on what to use to remove it. I'd like to try a different pattern/color scheme, but I don't want to just put another coat on.


I used my son this last time. So, he used those paint removing sprays from Lowe's. I only used the ones that said safe for Plastic. Truthfully I think they are no different then regular soap.
I never used paint thinner because I was afraid it would damage the surface, especially plastic. Those paint remover wipes come in handy also.

quote:
I noticed the same thing the first time I worked the bolt on an LMT, compared to a BM. Same same first time I worked the bolt on a Colt. No comparison. Very much like working the action of a $500 1911 and then hardly being able to feel the link swing on a Wilson or Baer. Hard to describe, but I know exactly what ya mean.

Then you to are gifted with this force Cool
quote:
Hard to describe, but I know exactly what ya mean.

Shibui
---------------------------------- THEY ARE NOT WORTHY OF YOUR CONCERN AND TRUTH BE TOLD – IN THE PIT OF THEIR COWARDLY HEARTS – THEY WISH THEY COULD BE LIKE YOU. LTC Randolph C. White Jr Have a very SF day.© ἤ τᾶν ἤ ἐπί τᾶς
I really appreciate the free floating rail. I run KAC rails on my other blasters and they just don't have the solid feeling of the LaRue rail. And it adds to the overall shibumi of the carbine. . . .

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

quote:
Originally posted by Aubrey:
quote:
Originally posted by El_Abogado:...
I called Pat Rogers and asked him if he could help me out....


Name dropper! Wink


And I got the idea for painting the carbine last year, when I trained with Aubrey in TX. . . .

How's that for name dropping, brother.

--------------------------------

"Speechless. I'm fucking speechless." -Malpaso "

I wouldn't mind going -- with a few hundred cops and some warrants -- I love making hippies sad." -J. Winger

quote:
I am not stupid enough to argue the experience of instructor's like Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers. I've heard/seen the data indicating Colt's perform best in their classes. But I find it hard to believe that Colt and FN are the only AR platforms available that qualify as tactically reliable. And before the TDP gets brought up, the 6920 is not built according to the TDP, as it is not select-fire. (If we're gonna be technical, let's be technical.)

I hope to someday run my carbine through one of Pat's classes. I guess I'll find how well built it really is at that time. Until then I'll just be a cocky ol' @$$hole who thinks you can get quality for a more reasonable price than what Colt wants.


Thats because you are right. Tactically proficient can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Mil spec was described on here real well one time.
There are threads on here that will tell you what parts commonly break on the AR. Or what parts to replace to avoid it breaking at the worst time. Look it up if you ever do attend one of Pats or some other courses.
I always ask the same question when people bring up Mil Spec. What do's it mean. I heard components like pins were fitted better. Parts sized and formed to fit, quality control....etc
They way I describe Mil Spec is designed to jump from Airplanes, bounce around in the back of a truck and probably survive excessive hours of unnecessary cleaning Big Grin
My BM was used for a five week Army course with no problems, don't ask. Using your AR for 10 or more 2-3 day consecutive civilian courses would be about the same. Talking round count and abuse only.
Add around two thousand more rounds after that over a couple of years. Changing out the Bolt system and trigger. Then the endurance test mentioned in my thread. My bushmaster has performed fine. Except for the five weeks mentioned above. It's only used to shoot.
I know my AR'S aren't high quality. The price alone was a clue. Cleaning, lubricating and inspecting your weapon go's a long way.
It's not a Colt ........



But it sure is nice! Nice work! I use the same light mount and it works for the classes I take. The carbine I've used in three carbine classes is a mutt built on a PWA lower, gun-show internal parts, LMT 16" upper, with a Colt BCG. It works, but I think I've been lucky. I'm not a heavy carbine user. My backup carbine is a Colt. Smile
The TDP that Colt,FN,LMT follow is not the end all be all... but it is a STANDARD that they follow.. the problem is that the other manufacutures DON'T follow a standard.. so if you take 1000 Colt's/FN's and 1000 Bushmasters.. the percentage of rifles with problems will be higher... Now lets say for the sake of Argument out of 1000 colts you get 5 defective ones... and out of the Bushmasters you get 75.

Don't sound like a big deal... unless your the poor bastard that drew the short straw on one of the 75.

I've never been lucky or good at predicting the future.. so I'll minimize my odds....
quote:
Originally posted by BooneGA:
Sweet rifle, but that G2 WILL fail on you when you shoot it unless you pick up the shock isolated bezel. It will work just fine as long as the bulb does not get hot, but once it is on for a while and you fire a shot (ie, exactly when you need it most probably) it will burn out.

Its a cheap part $20 or so, but could save your life!

Rick


It has been opined by people way smarter then me that the plastic body of the "G" series lights acts as a shock absorber.
I can't tell you that this is true or not.
However, i have six of these G2 Lights in those VTAC mounts on hard use guns, and with no problems at this time.
That doesn't mean anything of course, and i have had bad bulbs/ batteries out of the box (as well as bad cars out of the dealers showroom.
I'll keep an eye on this of course during PM checks and such, and will report back if there are any issues.

KClapp,
You are correct in that the commercially available Colts are not FA. However, and absent all of those parts that would make it a full auto gun, the parts that go into a 6920 meet the same standards- shotpeened and MPI bolts and barrels, parts to spec and so forth.
Other companies that do not have to meet a standard will take shortcuts- because they can. These shortcuts can be for many reasons, but generally speaking, upgraded QC/QA are not among them.
I see what i see, and i'm happy to tell students in class who are interested enough to ask.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
It has been opined by people way smarter then me that the plastic body of the "G" series lights acts as a shock absorber.
I can't tell you that this is true or not.
However, i have six of these G2 Lights in those VTAC mounts on hard use guns, and with no problems at this time.


Dayymn! I was running a G2 in a VTAC mount and got told over at M4c.net that I was just looking for trouble. So I saved up and got a M962. I will learn.

quote:

You are correct in that the commercially available Colts are not FA. However, and absent all of those parts that would make it a full auto gun, the parts that go into a 6920 meet the same standards- shotpeened and MPI bolts and barrels, parts to spec and so forth.
Other companies that do not have to meet a standard will take shortcuts- because they can. These shortcuts can be for many reasons, but generally speaking, upgraded QC/QA are not among them.


Roger that, Pat. The MPI process alone would add a significant cost.

I have followed many of your AAR threads to glean the info on what to look out for and I have taken proper measures to address that in my RRA (CK staking, extractors, lock-tited screws, etc.). I also took to heart the sticky thread you have over at M4c.net on proper cleaning/maintenance. That has had a big impact on my success with my RRA, I am sure.

Karl

 -------------------------------------

"You should respect his position if for no other reason than he has the power to send loyalists like Chris and JCustis to crush your little rebellion if you get caught seditiously half stepping. " - basicload

Just one of the Shepherd's sheepdogs. Joshua 24:15 Matthew 10:28

Thanks for the kind words!
Hey- you can't go wrong with the 962- i have used several, and like them. The problem i face (as do many others) is that we have X amount of carbines to properly equip for student use. I'd like to have M900's on all, but the cost factor is at the wrong end of the scale. After speaking with Kyle Lamb (and others) about the G2, i haven't gotten a lot of negative feed back. Anecdotal, absolutely, but my limited experience with the G2 light is that is is a viable compromise.

Re other guns. Most all of the AR's offered for sale are pretty much GTG. Some aren't. Not necessarily some makers (though there is that) but often just some guns within a lot.

For the average AR buyer, who may shoot a few rounds a year, from a covered firing position (or worse, bump fire into a lake while dressed like clowns) it isn't a big issue.
But for hard use, i'd strongly prefer something that meets the standard.
My first AR was a Colt. Since then i have owned Bushmasters, Essential Arms, PWA,LMT,Noveske and BCM and Larue for uppers and Stag and S&W.
I use Colts, LMT, Noveske, Stag and S&W (T&E the last two) as well as the excellent BCM and likewise excellent Larue uppers.
I even have two very old and well used BM uppers on the count.
I have had excellent luck with all.
My issues arise from what i see at class. There are trends that you can follow, class after class, year after year. That trend keeps me buying what i see that works.

That doesn't mean that a Brand X or Brand Y gun is garbage (though it may be) , it just means that i'll see more issues with some companies guns (and resultant CS issues) then others.

Use what you have and it sounds like you are doing the right thing with the RRA gun.
Hope to see you at class one day.

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