M855 to be replaced in 2009

quote:
At 62 grains, the new ammo weighs about the same as most NATO rounds. It has a typical lead core with a solid-copper shank and is considered a variation of Federal Cartridge’s Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round, which was developed for big-game hunting and is touted in a company news release for its ability to crush bone.
quote:
Originally posted by borebrush:
quote:
At 62 grains, the new ammo weighs about the same as most NATO rounds. It has a typical lead core with a solid-copper shank and is considered a variation of Federal Cartridge’s Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round, which was developed for big-game hunting and is touted in a company news release for its ability to crush bone.


Federal's website isn't showing a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round in anything smaller than 7mm Remington Mag.

Jason -------------------------------- "Consumer, how many times have you hankered for vegan mayonnaise only to realize you're not man enough to open the jar?" -- Bucky B. Katt

I look forward to reading the inevitable, detailed comparisons between M855A1 and SOST.

We have been told to be positive because there is more to M855A1 than being green.

Guess we will see
-------------------------------- Promise and Potential do not last forever
quote:
Originally posted by AC3:
We have been told to be positive because there is more to M855A1 than being green.


That's what was breifed at the Infantry Industry Conferance also. They were evry impressed with what they have done, but offered no comments on what the improvements are.
What little I've heard out of Lake City seems to indicate that the new M855A1 or whatever they have coming down the pipe is a real improvement. Now this is second hand knowledge so YMMV but what was described to me sounded more like a lead free SOST than a lead free SS109. I will try to get some better info.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:
quote:
Originally posted by AC3:
We have been told to be positive because there is more to M855A1 than being green.


That's what was breifed at the Infantry Industry Conferance also. They were evry impressed with what they have done, but offered no comments on what the improvements are.


During our brief we were all scratching our heads wondering what to expect when we actually shoot people with the M855A1.

Will a solid copper slug deform better in soft tissue? Will it fragment? We literally had no idea, and were not given any hints as to how the new round performs when you actually shoot people.
-------------------------------- Promise and Potential do not last forever
FWIW, without the proper design, it performs as a slug with awesome penetration.


The Barnes solids (the bigguns) evidently get reused by dangerous game hunters because they tend to not deform at all.

With out an open tip I foresee alot of 5.56mm holes on one side and maybe 45mm holes on the other depending on the thickness of the target.
more info...

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010...l?ref=home-ata71-img




quote:

PICATINNY ARSENAL, N.J. (June 23, 2010) -- The Army announced today it has begun shipping its new 5.56mm cartridge, the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, to support warfighters in Afghanistan.

The new M855A1 round is sometimes referred to as "green ammo."

The new round replaces the current M855 5.56mm cartridge that has been used by U.S. troops since the early 1980s.

The M855A1 resulted in a number of significant enhancements not found in the current round, officials said. They explained these include improved hard-target capability, more dependable, consistent performance at all distances, improved accuracy, reduced muzzle flash and a higher velocity.

During testing, the M855A1 performed better than current 7.62mm ball ammunition against certain types of targets, blurring the performance differences that previously separated the two rounds.

The projectile incorporates these improvements without adding weight or requiring additional training.

According to Lt. Col. Jeffrey K. Woods, the program's product manager, the projectile is "the best general purpose 5.56mm round ever produced."

Woods said its fielding represents the most significant advancement in general purpose small caliber ammunition in decades.

The Enhanced Performance Round contains an environmentally-friendly projectile that eliminates up to 2,000 tons of lead from the manufacturing process each year in direct support of Army commitment to environmental stewardship.

Woods said the effort is a clear example of how "greening" a previously hazardous material can also provide extremely beneficial performance improvements.

Picatinny Arsenal's Project Manager for Maneuver Ammunition Systems manages the M855A1 program.

Project Manager Chris Grassano called the fielding "the culmination of an Army enterprise effort by a number of organizations, particularly the Army Research Laboratory, Armament Research Development and Engineering Center, Program Executive Office for Ammunition and the Joint Munitions Command.

"The Army utilized advanced science, modeling and analysis to produce the best 5.56mm round possible for the warfighter," he said.

The M855A1 is tailored for use in the M-4 weapon system but also improves the performance of the M-16 and M-249 families of weapons.

A true general-purpose round, the M855A1 exceeds the performance of the current M855 against the many different types of targets likely to be encountered in combat.

Prior to initial production, the EPR underwent vigorous testing. Official qualification of the round consisted of a series of side-by-side tests with the current M855.

Overall, the Army fired more than 1 million rounds to ensure the new cartridge met or exceeded all expectations. The M855A1 is without question the most thoroughly tested small caliber round ever fielded, Woods said.

The Army has recently completed the Limited Rate Initial Production phase for the M855A1 and is beginning the follow-on full rate production phase where plans are to procure more than 200 millions rounds over the next 12-15 months.

The M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round is the first environmentally-friendly bullet resulting from a larger "greening" effort across the Army's Small Caliber Ammunition programs. Other greening efforts include 5.56mm tracer, 7.62mm ball and green primers.

Soldiers in Afghanistan will begin using the new, improved round this summer.
quote:
the M855A1 exceeds the performance of the current M855 against the many different types of targets likely to be encountered in combat.

Is that fully true? Are the NATO countries going to replace all their ammo with this round? or is it only for US forces?

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Friend of mine is down at Benning (has an account here but hardly ever posts) testing new equipment. He said they shot a bunch of this out of some AMU built DMRs that were being tested. He did say it shot noticeably flatter than M855.

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

quote:
It will work like a Barnes X bullet or the TSX style bullet. Weight is the same, so it will be longer, and likely have a superior ballistic coefficient. It may drift more with wind but will likely drop less if the velocity specs are the same.

Not being an FMJ, it may also be more accurate as a side effect of the manufacturing process improving consistency of the base. How it expands/fragments will depend on the design.

All gilding metal and all copper bullets (even sintered ones) have been pretty well established in the hunting and reloading markets for awhile now.



Now that I have seen a side-by-side of these two bullets I am very hopeful. I agree with the quote above that BC will be higher while weight should be OK. The penetrator should be straighter in the jacket.

On deceleration in tissue it may want to trade ends as the aft end's inertia wants to tip (lead would have been better), causing a break at the tip/jacket or cannelure junctions.

I hope and pray the accuracy problem they had with the sintered tungsten and bismuth-tin versions have been corrected –– we've known as far back as 2005-2006 that accuracy could be poorer than average Green Tip (documented and verified at the Basic Training Brigade, Infantry Training Brigade, and the AMU, all at Benning).


quote:
Sinister wrote:
On deceleration in tissue it may want to trade ends as the aft end's inertia wants to tip (lead would have been better), causing a break at the tip/jacket or cannelure junctions.


Is it me, or does this look like it will have similar limitations to the M855 as far as tissue damage below a relatively high velocity (Fackler's study), thus limiting it's max effective wounding distance? My bet is the Mk318 will be significantly better in that regard.
While we know SOST works when mass produced, anyone want to take best on the effectiveness of this on mass production???

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I'm lost here. What does this bullet do that M855 does not, besides make the Greenies happy?

______________________________________________________________________

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It was supposed to upset in tissue with a shorter neck and various other features.

Apparently the trial ammo did, the production, not so much...

______________________________

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Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

Rumors have it that Federal has been selling SOST seconds to employees over the past year...the purported Mk318 Mod0 in the link appears to be about DOUBLE the USG price.

-------

M855A1 EPR would make nice linked MG ammo, but is NOT my first choice for a carbine or rifle. It doesn't help that the recent Big Army briefings on the topic are filled with misleading statements and outright falsehoods...
quote:
Originally posted by borebrush:
Thats funny. I get told that its only available in quantity to certain entities due to service needs. Yet looky here, they are selling it commercially. With a modest markup in price of course.

i really hate getting fed bullshit.


Remember though that the stuff being sold commercially are the seconds. The stuff that failed inspection. Too much tarnish on the case (makes sense when you consider ammo might be stored for yeras), they neglected to seal the case, the cases were dinged up, or test samples from that batch didn't meet velocity specs. So of course Federal is going to sell them instead of taking a loss. And since they are selling something that's otherwise impossible to get, they are of course going to charge a premium price for it.
Yeah, paying more for rejects.
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn01:
Remember though that the stuff being sold commercially are the seconds. The stuff that failed inspection. Too much tarnish on the case (makes sense when you consider ammo might be stored for yeras), they neglected to seal the case, the cases were dinged up, or test samples from that batch didn't meet velocity specs. So of course Federal is going to sell them instead of taking a loss. And since they are selling something that's otherwise impossible to get, they are of course going to charge a premium price for it.
Yeah, paying more for rejects.


One thing to remember is that while the rounds aren't being being suppled to the military, they are not being sold to the general public. I wouldn't really call it commercially available. The rounds sold as seconds are only available to Federal employees.

As for pricing, it's nowhere near a "premium price". Seconds are typically much less than half the commercial price of store bought ammo.
quote:
Originally posted by BC98:
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn01:
Remember though that the stuff being sold commercially are the seconds. The stuff that failed inspection. Too much tarnish on the case (makes sense when you consider ammo might be stored for yeras), they neglected to seal the case, the cases were dinged up, or test samples from that batch didn't meet velocity specs. So of course Federal is going to sell them instead of taking a loss. And since they are selling something that's otherwise impossible to get, they are of course going to charge a premium price for it.
Yeah, paying more for rejects.


One thing to remember is that while the rounds aren't being being suppled to the military, they are not being sold to the general public. I wouldn't really call it commercially available. The rounds sold as seconds are only available to Federal employees.

As for pricing, it's nowhere near a "premium price". Seconds are typically much less than half the commercial price of store bought ammo.


The linked site offering them for sale is selling to the public. And it's almost a dollar a round in lots of 100. They don't give an amount, but I assume it's for 500 rounds they are offering at 475.95. Which is still 95 cents a round. That's more than Hornady personal defense TAP, Black Hills match, and is only a few dollars less than Federal Gold Medal Match. I consider that a premium price.

Even XM855 is selling for more than most FMJ is going for.
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn01:
The linked site offering them for sale is selling to the public. And it's almost a dollar a round in lots of 100. They don't give an amount, but I assume it's for 500 rounds they are offering at 475.95. Which is still 95 cents a round. That's more than Hornady personal defense TAP, Black Hills match, and is only a few dollars less than Federal Gold Medal Match. I consider that a premium price.

Even XM855 is selling for more than most FMJ is going for.


My mistake on not reading the website. However, I did not see the part where it specifically states that the ammo is considered as seconds. Did I miss it? Not trying to be a dick but am honestly curious. Unless confirmed by someone at the website, I don't know that there's anything wrong with them.

Employee-offered factory seconds (those mentioned by DocGKR) are not nearly as expensive. That's where my confusion was coming from. For example, earlier this year I got the Gold Medal Match 77gr SMK round for about $5 a box ($0.25 per round). While I haven't seen any of the SOST rounds there, I'm snapping up all I can carry if I do.
I have to admit I'm making an assumption here. I'm assuming that the stuff being sold is seconds because I'm assuming that it would otherwise go to government contracts. That's a lot of assumptions I know, but I'm basing that on how things like XM855 have been sold. I'm at the dealer end, so I'm not privy to what goes on in-house though. Even the Black Hills MK262 seconds were being sold for high dollar amounts.
I looked at the description on that site again though, and it doesn't have the X prefix like the seconds usually do. So hmmm.....
FWIW here are my chrono results for the SOST round.

90degF, 85% humidity, 900ft ASL, CED M2 chrono 10' from the muzzle:

12.5" 1:7 5.56 barrel | MV 2774 | SD 17.7 | ES 59

14.5" 1:7 5.56 barrel | MV 2888 | SD 13.7 | ES 36

Neither MV figure is corrected back to the muzzle.
Holy shit, those rounds are honking right along for coming out of an SBR.


Where'd you order the ammo from? I may have found my new duty rifle ammo.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

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