OK, I wanted to show "A" way of setting up a windproof smock.  The Soldier '95 pattern smock is relatively cheap and available so it makes a good starting point.  But it's needs some work, IMHO, so here's one way of going about it.  Everything you see here was done on a single feed industrial, with no. 69 thread, and a #23 needle.  

The first thing that comes to mind on a Brit smock is the zip.  Why they insist on doing it bitch style is beyond me.  But it's easily fixable.  So a #10 YKK zip is installed, with the pull on the right side.  I back it up with binding tape to make the joint stronger, but you could probably get by without it.  Also, I cut the Velcro down to 1" squares, which I think is a good balance between staying put and getting them open.  

   

On the top the zip goes all the way up to the collar/storm flap on the hood.  The binding tape is folded over here and triple stitched.

On the bottom, I sew down the tail, right to the end, instead of leaving a small tail loose like the issue smock.  I think it's just easier to zip up this way, in the cold with gloves on.  Again the tape is folded under and triple sewn on the ends.  

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Original Post

Next we'll take a look at the hood.  Issue Brit smocks have had some interesting shapes to them.  They must have some pointy-headed cretins in the ranks, because the hood is basically a big cone.  So you can fix that, by separating the two layers, creating a new, rounded seam, cutting off the pointy top, and sewing it back together.  While you're at it, you might as well add a small visor in front, and replace the drawstring with bungee and cord locks.

Another shot from the side.  The hood was also cut down slightly in front, and new visor added, which gives pro from rain but doesn't obstruct vison as much.

Next we tackled the cuffs.  I like something that is easy to use, when removing and putting on gloves, so I use a binding tape tunnel and shock cord.  A piece of 1" webbing with a grommet is used to take the strain off the tape.  You could probably get away without it.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Next we'll take a look at the waist and skirt drawstrings.  The Brits use regular "shoe lace", with internal breaks in the tunnels for the waist.  I used a continuous piece of 1" binding tape with shock cord and cord locks.  The locks are just short of the zip so they don't interfere with the pull.

I used the existing tunnel for the skirt, just adding cord and locks.  If you look close, you can also see where I removed those goofy hand warmer packets and sewed the pass-through opening shut.  The felt lining absorbed water and added weight when wet.  So they were shit-canned. 

Also the issue mesh pockets were replaced with sturdier mesh that doesn't fray with use.  The existing pockets were cut out (along with the yoke reinforcement up top), and new pockets simply taped and sewn in.  The pass-through zips outside remain the same.  

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

On pockets.  I know this is heresy to some, but I replace the (exposed) Canadian buttons with Velcro.  If you look at the issue shoulder pockets, you can see the pattern I used.

So the top flaps were cut down and Velcro squares added.

Notice how the pocket extends up onto the top flap and folds over for secure closure.  

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

So again, "A" way of doing it.  It isn't as ally as a Jay Jay's, Arktis, or SASS, but it works pretty damn good.

I really like the windproof smock concept, as a light, single outer layer which can be tailored to conditions by adding subtracting layers underneath it as required.  This gives you much more versatility as compared to multiple layer jackets, with sewn-in insulation and WP layers.  Also as a tactical consideration, the smock provides better camo, especially when wet, as opposed to hard shells.  It is quieter with less sheen, especially under NIR.  So for things like close target recce it is a preferred garment.  

To waterproof it, you simply add a single layer WP shell underneath it, like the Thunder Ledge or Arktis jacket (and trou).  For insulation, wind shirt, gridded fleece on the move, or puffy suit when stationary.  By using a single outer layer, only the smock needs to be camo'd, thereby cutting down on so many expensive camo layers.  Single earth-tone colors can be used for all other layers.

The Brits (and others) have been doing this for years, instead of insisting on each layer being camo'd and/or worn on the outside.  It just makes sense to me as well.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I have a windproof smock I bought through an add in SOF magazine around 1980. My mods are just adding cuffs in the sleeves. I did add zippers to the two small pockets on the inside back but removed them along with a waist cord. I always wondered about the bitch zipper LOL. Like you said you can keep alot of level 1 stuff with you all the time.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Yeah as an added bonus, you can keep a bunch of shit on you, versus the belt kit or ruck.  The shoulder pockets are especially good for this purpose.   Small E&E and medical kits can be carried here.  The pass-through chest pockets are nice for maps, gloves, watch cap, etc.  Front chest pockets are the office: notebook, pen, and flashlight on one side; compass, pace beads on the other.  Waist pockets are good for over-mitts, windshirt or other thin layers, or even some snacks.

The shock cord cuffs are inspired by the old sewn in elastic cuffs.

I don't have the old "poacher" pockets on this smock, but also good for additional clothing layers that may be coming on n off as you travel.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Was going to ask about the poacher pocket.  Seems to be the final piece for complete utility. 

Also, do you like a smock cut longer in the rear, or straight around the top of the thigh?  Was thinking about when bent over, or seated or to help keep wind/blowing rain/snow out, like the M51 fishtail parka.

Tankersteve

In Yorktown, VA.          Joined August 2008

Gov't Civilian, after retiring from active duty in 2015. 

 

'One's own open sore never smells.'  - Haitian proverb

Yeah Brigade Quartermasters used to sell a Brit style Gortex suit that was designed to be worn under the parka or windproof smock.  Arktis still sells something similar (and probably made the BQ suit) since guys over there do this all the time.  I use a Red Ledge "Thunder Light" jacket and trou, which is a very light, one-layer WP system, not much thicker than a windshirt and trou, which works nicely under the smock and combat trousers.  They have been extensively tested on combat deployments by SF dudes, which is where I found out about them.  Very light and packable as opposed to issue gtx stuff.  They are very reasonably priced, especially when compared to Gucci stuff that costs hundreds of dollars.   

This smock is already spoken for.  Will be sending it out to a buddy this week for his testing.

Yeah I just like the concept of having a single outer layer, which is camo'd for visual and NIR, doesn't glint in rain, or make noise when busting bush.  I'm not surprised this concept is being re-visited.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

On the skirt cut, the issue smock is already cut a little longer than we used to have on our jackets, like the M-65.  So you're already there to begin with, and the shock cord skirt draws it in when windy.  If this is an issue I'd go with a bib-style trou.  

Poacher pockets are legit, I just didn't add them on this smock.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I'm surprised nobody busted my nuts for shit-canning the Canadian buttons.  I really love them, but I figured for cold weather ops, with gloves and mitts, this might be the easiest way to get in and out of them.  Also wanted to streamline the top flaps a little bit.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Hey cool it's pretty much your size, I'm swimming in it.  Like to see whatcha think about it.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

The “Stealth Suit” was/is pretty common in Canada for wear under the camo shirt in warmer weather. Simple goretex jacket and trouser in either greenish or blackish  

I wore a puffy, a stealth jacket and a PCS smock hunting this year in heavy wet snow. You can see the stealth suit top under my smock Worked great. 

Typically I carry my tags/licenses/pen/compass in my chest pockets, light toque, glove liners, neck gaiter etc in the lower pockets, and usually a clif bar or two  4A3DC9E0-B172-4641-85BC-2BF94A5C1DF9

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

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Here's the system I use with it.  First the Sekri L1 zip-top.

This is my go-to base layer for about 50 deg and lower.  

Next up the Propper L4 Windshirt.

Incredibly warm for it's weight, especially on the move.  Worn right over the base layer.

Next the Sekri L2 Gridded Fleece.

This sucker is really warm but also really breathable.  Wear without windshirt when you're really humping it.  Wear windshirt over it to shut airflow down.  

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Next up the WP layer.  Here is the Redledge Thunder Light parka.

This is an older model in "taupe" (yeah looks a lot like OD green to me too).  This worn right over base layer, such L1 or L2 layer, and underneath smock.  

Here's a pic of the inside.  Notice single layer, no liner, etc.  and taped seams.  

 

Here's the trou,  They run small so size up.  I usually wear medium trou and these older trou are XL.  Hopefully they have adjusted this by now.  These fit nicely under regular cammies or L5 soft shell trou.    

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

So yeah there's the whole system.  Was going to start another thread but it kinda all runs together.  Only thing not shown is happy suit, but that's basically a stationary item.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Also the Arktis A310 jacket, and C312 trou is nicer version of a WP layer worn under the smock.  (arktisusa.com)

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

The Redledge stuff is single layer water proof stuff.  It will keep you dry, especially when layered underneath the smock.  But it doesn't breathe all that much.  Best used when it's pissing down rain, as opposed to windy, drizzly stuff, which is best handled by the smock alone.  You're gonna get wet, one way or the other.  

It's a step up from just urethane coated stuff, as the material is supposed to breathe somewhat, but like any WP layer, it's gonna be muggy in there.  Is also much lighter and packable than old GI urethane stuff (including early PCU L6).  

It might be a toss-up for some between PCU or ECWS gen III L6 stuff, and something like the Redledge.  The Redledge Thunderlight is certainly lighter, and packs down smaller.  Depends on how much it rains in your AO; how hard, how often, etc.  If your L6 parka and trou become your go-to layers, as opposed to L5 softshells (or smock), then I might pack them instead.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

The Redledge Thunderlight is a ripstop nylon taffeta with a "waterproof breathable" coating.  So it's not a separate gortex membrane with multiple layers over and under it.  So it's probably not as durable as  2-3 layer gtx jackets but it's not designed to be.  It's basically an expendable jacket that you use and abuse.  At 55 bucks, you can afford to buy several, or one every year.  When worn under a smock, as opposed to a stand-alone outer layer, you basically provide the other layers yourself.  Think of it as a (removable) liner to your smock.  

As far as water proof goes, I've worn it around the Carolinas in rainy weather and it held up just fine.  No leaks or weird shit, like seam-sealing drying up or whatever.  Gets kinda hot when moving hard, but what doesn't.  I think Redledge is one of the great un-discovered gems of our time.   I've had four of them in about 10 year's time.  So they last about two seasons of heavy use.  Probably a lot more with casual use.          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Eh, lookin good up there Canuck.  I also have some lighter-weight puffy jackets/vests for really cold weather, so sure, you can add those into the mix.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

We run a very similar system... Mine is as follows

TOP

Base layer - Light 150 or 200 weight Merino, Mid - either an Arcteryx Naga or Rho top, or an Atom LT or similar light puffy, then a Stealth Jacket, then my smock 

On the legs - 150 weight merino, Stealth pants (sometimes) and windproof trousers, with a pair of OR Gaiters over top. If find I don't wear the stealth pants too often.

In summer, If its raining, I typically just wear a goretex hardshell over a base layer, in fall/winter, is when I wear the smock system. Or, I bring the stealth jacket/pants as an emergency layer/windshirt. If its sunny and lovely, I just bring an windshirt/pant along just in case.

the Windproof trousers are really awesome, gotta say. pushing through heavy wet bush, snow, etc, and the outside was wet, however the inner side was just slightly damp, with no dampness into my base layer. Big fan, other than the goofy sizing and available sizes.

I'd love to get the hood on my smock modified. the cone look is goofy as hell.

 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

The Redledge reminds me of first gen SF-issue Gore-Tex circa 1983-85.  I don't remember who made it, but it was in an outrageous emerald green that pissed off 82nd First Sergeants and Sergeants Major whenever a relaxed grooming standards SF long hair in un-marked OG-107s, desert boots, outrageous web gear, and unidentifiable small arms rucked by.

A friend of mine who went on into the Army Acquisition Corps asked me about SF gear.  I told him the magic equation was:  it has to be incredibly useful, weigh nothing, pack up small, fold out big, and be in a color not found in Army Reg 670-1.

Sinister posted:

The Redledge reminds me of first gen SF-issue Gore-Tex circa 1983-85.  I don't remember who made it, but it was in an outrageous emerald green that pissed off 82nd First Sergeants and Sergeants Major whenever a relaxed grooming standards SF long hair in un-marked OG-107s, desert boots, outrageous web gear, and unidentifiable small arms rucked by.

A friend of mine who went on into the Army Acquisition Corps asked me about SF gear.  I told him the magic equation was:  it has to be incredibly useful, weigh nothing, pack up small, fold out big, and be in a color not found in Army Reg 670-1.

That would have been glorious to behold.  

Did you have one of your 18D's use the opportunity to conduct some hip-pocket training?

"Gentlemen, take notice.  Observe the classic symptoms of a stroke.   Trembling in the limbs, quivering facial features, inability to form coherent speech patterns.  Yes, classic cerebrovascular incident."

FourNinerZero posted:

The “Stealth Suit” was/is pretty common in Canada for wear under the camo shirt in warmer weather. Simple goretex jacket and trouser in either greenish or blackish  

I wore a puffy, a stealth jacket and a PCS smock hunting this year in heavy wet snow. You can see the stealth suit top under my smock Worked great. 

Typically I carry my tags/licenses/pen/compass in my chest pockets, light toque, glove liners, neck gaiter etc in the lower pockets, and usually a clif bar or two  4A3DC9E0-B172-4641-85BC-2BF94A5C1DF9

A ha!  A pic of 49er0.  I was always curious if I knew you from my 10 yrs in Edmonton...  Nope, doesn't ring a bell.  Perhaps it's the facial hair throwing me off...

I went looking for the old smock thread to reference as it had lots of info and pics...alas.

I was always too cheap to buy a stealth suit.  I have one of Brian K's Drop Zone recce smocks (which I like) and our issue Gortex, CADPAT rain coat.  I hate to admit that after moving to BC, I found myself wearing the issue coat more - a.  for convenience and  b.  dealing with the near constant rain out here.  Both have plusses and minuses.  The issue shell is somewhat stiff and bulky, noisy etc.  Makes you sweat.  Troops complain the, when prone, the jacket causes water to flow forward into the air vent located just below the shoulders... My smock is not wp.  I don't have a wp layer (could use my civ Gortex, OD rain jacket, but it's not as good as stealth suit - this is where the one garment convenience thing comes in).  Stuff in the pockets gets wet and I'm lazy when it comes to zip locking every thing...  The smock is lighter, less bulky, wind proof-ish, somewhat water resistant and has lot's of great pockets/features etc.

The raincoat just wound up more convenient for standing around in the rain...with my hands in pockets...holding a coffee...but...that says more about the quality of "soldiering" I've been doing for the last dozen years.  Put it this way, an infantryman in a rifle section would be better off with smock/stealth combo, as he'll be "working" much harder.  There's also that whole "setting an example for the junior ranks by wearing issued stuff thing" although some mods to my smock made it a little more "bde SM proof".  In my company in Edmonton, before Gortex coat was issued, at least half the troops had smocks which I allowed to be worn.  Of course, that went on hold on combined arms exs where there  was a chance of a visit by Bde Command Team.  That stuff used to make them apoplectic!

All moot now since retirement.

"Now I'm old and I'm nervous

and cast from the service

and all I deserve is a shilling a day..." - Kipling

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

I have two DZ smocks, in TW and AR cadpat. 

In fall it replaced my combat shirt, in all but the most brutal if winter I wore it over Arcteryx puffy’s and such. 

Overseas it got worn over my armour as load carriage under my webbing on occasion. 

Never wore the issued rain coat, mostly just my arcteryx alpha jacket. I had the luck of working in some very permissive and reasonable units when it came to gear.  In the field anyway, Garrison was/is a different ballgame. 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

Diz posted:

I'm surprised nobody busted my nuts for shit-canning the Canadian buttons.  I really love them, but I figured for cold weather ops, with gloves and mitts, this might be the easiest way to get in and out of them.  Also wanted to streamline the top flaps a little bit.  

OK.

In a past millennium I thought the buttons were cool.  When I had the chance & $, I ordered one in OD- with all the works & jerks: pocket D rings, interior pockets...and taped large buttons.  With the pockets & the poachers in particular, some of the slivering activities could be done with out webbing. 

So I tried it.  Tools, consumables & water went well.  The big buttons were a bust.  Every bit of wire, thin cord or vine found them.  One even got jammed in a crack or rock gap and had to carefully cut off.

libertarian45 posted:
FourNinerZero posted:
 

A ha!  A pic of 49er0.  I was always curious if I knew you from my 10 yrs in Edmonton...  Nope, doesn't ring a bell.  Perhaps it's the facial hair throwing me off...

I went looking for the old smock thread to reference as it had lots of info and pics...alas.

I was always too cheap to buy a stealth suit.  I have one of Brian K's Drop Zone recce smocks (which I like)

You hear stories of DZ gear availability now and then.

Linz posted:
Diz posted:

 

OK.

In a past millennium I thought the buttons were cool.  When I had the chance & $, I ordered one in OD- with all the works & jerks: pocket D rings, interior pockets...and taped large buttons.  With the pockets & the poachers in particular, some of the slivering activities could be done with out webbing. 

So I tried it.  Tools, consumables & water went well.  The big buttons were a bust.  Every bit of wire, thin cord or vine found them.  One even got jammed in a crack or rock gap and had to carefully cut off.

A common problem that happened to me on numerous occasions was the button from the old parka back epaulette strap (can it still technically be called that if it's on the back vice the shoulder) hanging me up on the drying lines going in and out of an arctic tent...

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

Buttons gotta be covered, and be big. Sleeve pockets I like vertical zippers (ala Arcteryx Recce shirt or CPgear OTW shirts)

I wear my brit smock hunting, so non tactical but noise discipline is important. Ungulates are nervous critters in hunting season, and aint as dumb as they seem. Buttons win over velcro. 

Typically, for me, if im going into my smock pockets its to use an item needing dexterity (compass, pen) or removing or adding hand/neck layers (merino glove liner, neck gaiter) so I wouldn't be wearing mitts anyway  that would prevent opening and closing a button  

 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

I picked up a DZ Smock for myself and one for the wife  back in the spring of 04 in non stocked (at the time) colors. Mine in tan, went to Baghdad with me and was used quite heavily vs the M65 my unit issued me. 

Location Texas.

 

"So what are you gonna do if we get hit on this trip?" "Me?, I'm going to shoot some good pics of you nuking their ass. You do your job, I'll do mine. If I have to do yours,(unless you're the medic) we're probably all screwed!" - Standard reply , from Desert Storm through Iraqi Freedom

Great discussion guys.  It's good to see folks that use these things pipe up and give us good tips of the trade.  

On SgtMaj's.  On behalf of soldiers and marines everywhere, I would just like to say "Chapeau" to all the SF dudes who spiked their BP's with their non-std kit.  Well done lads.

On buttons.  But they are so Ally.  But yeah, exposed buttons look magnificent on garrison troopers, not so good in the field.  I think 490 has it; covered Canadian buttons; big fat ones.  Crossfire did this on their smock and it makes sense.  On the gloves n mitts thing, yeah I should have said with just gloves on.  I like mitts on dummy cords, with contact gloves underneath, so I can pull them off, get into whatever, and go forth smartly.  I was thinking the Velcro would work well with the gloves still on.

On smock availability.  You can still get pretty good deals on used surplus smocks from Old Blighty (and occasionally Canada) on ebay.  The shipping isn't too bad either.  They are giving away the old DPM ones, and a bit more for the MTP stuff.  Most are later patterns with covered buttons, so there you are.  I can't imagine your local "cleaners/alterations" shop not being able to handle these mods; everyone I've ever seen has a good industrial machine perfectly capable of handling the work.  There are sizing charts out there to translate sizes.  A 180/104 is roughly a Large Long with a shit-ton of room for layering.   Make sure it's genuine surplus with MOD label.

SASS.  OOB as far as I know.  

DZ Gear.  Same same, which is a shame.  Really nice kit.   

Arktis still makes nice stuff.  Several different styles to choose from.  Just love that jungle shirt too.  Have to get that one of these days.  Still reasonably priced as compared to Gucci brands.

Jay Jay's.  Really nice kit.  Light weight like the old classic smocks, but made with the newer material, like the L5 softshells (which IMHO, are the grandsons of this smock).  Still might need some mods, like righthand zip, covered buttons, and shoulder pockets, but all n all, a great base to start from.

Crossfire.  Coming soon. New material and innovative construction techniques.  Round hood (!), covered buttons, shoulder pockets.  These guys have worn smocks before too.  In AusCam but OCP on next run (he said hopefully).  

Footnote:  AusCam is really growing on me.  

Then there are the usual suspects: Beyond Clothing, Patagonia, Arctyrex, Wild Things, etc. who make L5 "softshells" which let's face it, are direct descendants of the windproof smock.  Some of them have made Gucci smocks, in the classic pattern, but charge out the ass for them.  Which is neither here nor there, but it is a lot easier to kit up at 150 a pop, versus 400+.

Then you have PCU/ECWS stuff from ORC, Propper, etc, which are L5 softshells at a more reasonable price point.  Not exactly windproof smocks, in the classic sense, with all the pockets, but as far as layering goes, pretty damn close.  You can find these from time to time on ebay too.      

 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Also Fjallraven still makes "cotton duck" type parkas, and smocks that you rub their proprietary wax into and set with a hair dryer.  This was the old school way to waterproof before the synthetics, gtx, etc, and is still valid, IMHO.  If you treat a poly/cotton smock with wax or other type treatment (DWR, etc.) it increases the water resistance, up to water proof (but not breathable).       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Varusteleka.com is a Finnish company which deals in Surplus and quality new stuff.  they sell both versions of the Brit MTP smock, the older DPM and Desert DPM, as well as their own house brand windproof smock version in solid colours. Varusteleka produces really good stuff of high quality.

Ebay often has them up, search "MTP Windproof"  and the smocks and pants should show up.  

 

EDIT, just for shits and giggles, My Dropzone recce Cadpat AR smock doing some winter hiking, and my TW doing work as an MG gunner back in the day.

GMPG gunnerIMG_0180

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

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Drop Zone is done.  Brian K was the driving force behind these great products.  He's been my friend since 1994 when I patronized his earlier business.  He was an early member on LF and routinely tried to convince me to join.  I last saw him in June at a mutual friend's funeral.  Something happened to him investor-wise which involves legal action against parties unknown.  He's very private about business stuff.  Bottom line - we all miss out.

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

There was another thread on here awhile back about some surplus smocks possibly being sent somewhere here to be sold, or would be available to be sold here. Can't recall offhand.

_____________________________________________

 

Doug

If I mention Corona, I ain't talking about beer.

 

"It's your turn to do until it's not."  TA

 

"Afterall.... if you get yourself into a fair fight.. you really haven't learned anything in all the time you have spent on Lightfighter, your tactics suck, and you don't deserve to breed."  David Reeves

 

JOINED:  9/20/09     LOCATION:  Outside of KSA Finally!

Nothing that I think would interest anyone here, but I was inspired to go look through the three bins of old camo I've collected over 40 years.  Several DPM shirts, including desert DPM.  DPM Parachutist's smock with the flap you pull under your crotch and snap, drawstring hem, knit cuffs.  No hoots on anything.  Old Swiss camo pants and jacket.  Original Red Dawn mock Soviet green and white pullover and pants.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

No use with the Varusteleka smock, just noted they make one. Ive purchased several other items from their Sarma and Sarma TST lines, the quality is really good. Really nice stuff.

@Dorsai Ive always liked the old Swiss Alpenflage. @fiveninerone I believe has one of their smocks with the load bearing built into it. Really neat stuff.

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

That is a concept I've always wanted to explore.  I made some specialty jackets awhile back that got into this line of thinking.  They were up-dated "rifleman's" jackets as used by the teams.  I sewed in 1" webbing shoulder straps, along with cordura panels to support sewn on mag pouches.  Then superimposed web loops on the outside for a "pistol" belt.  Basically a double layer cammie jacket with a flotation bladder in between.  So you pretty much had a sewn in chest rig to support the weight of your kit.

Fast forward to today, and you could do the same thing with your smock.  Makes more sense to me that if you plan on carrying heavy shit in your pockets, they should be reinforced some how.  Now a days I would probably use binding tape and 330 cordura but same concept.   Also could incorporate a stowed drag handle system. 

Funny I mentioned this concept to a couple of companies at the SHOT Show, and they couldn't care less.  Or at least pretended to.  

I think this would leverage the smock concept to it's fullest.  A specialty item for sure, but nonetheless a good idea for those that can use it.       

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Dis, the last time he humped the Pig was when dinosaurs ruled the earth LOL

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

That photo was late 2006 I believe....though I humped one in 2010 in Afghanistan for a bit. Nowadays I carry a Patrol Carbine as 5-0, with smocks and rucks and such mostly relegated to recreational activities  

The LBE smock idea is interesting, but strikes me as being very, very niche. I personally hate bulky shit in my pockets, just sits weird, bumps and rubs and overall is uncomfortable. Not to say its not a valid concept, but one that would require a specific user and mission. 

@diz I’d like to see the jackets you made up and the design ideas behind them. 

 

 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

FourNinerZero posted:

That photo was late 2006 I believe....though I humped one in 2010 in Afghanistan for a bit. Nowadays I carry a Patrol Carbine as 5-0, with smocks and rucks and such mostly relegated to recreational activities  

The LBE smock idea is interesting, but strikes me as being very, very niche. I personally hate bulky shit in my pockets, just sits weird, bumps and rubs and overall is uncomfortable. Not to say its not a valid concept, but one that would require a specific user and mission. 

@diz I’d like to see the jackets you made up and the design ideas behind them. 

 

 

I'm with you.  As I mentioned in the vest/LBE discussions, our '64 pattern webbing had no mag pouches and the concept was that we would go into battle with 3 X loaded steel FN mags in our shirt pockets with the upper pockets filled with additional 7.62mm cardboard ammo boxes bouncing off your tits.  Hated it - obstacle crse was a bitch in the early 80s.  That's why we bought M14 or bren pouches at surplus stores.  Also, if all your important stuff is in your jacket, then you have to wear it all the time.  So, I'm with you on that - I don't like heavy stuff in pockets.

Good pockets give you options.  In 86, some "genius" decided to save money by issuing a shirt with virtually no pockets since, "we'll always have webbing on etc and therefore don't need them...Do you know how much pockets add to the manufacturing process?"  This around the same time as the UK Para AAR from Falklands War was making the rounds demanding that they get more "bellows" pockets vice flat ones for ad hoc usage - extra grenades, gloves when removed etc...

I have no hands on experience, but the SADF para smock looks like it has good pocket reinforcement.

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

libertarian45 posted:
FourNinerZero posted:

That photo was late 2006 I believe....though I humped one in 2010 in Afghanistan for a bit. Nowadays I carry a Patrol Carbine as 5-0, with smocks and rucks and such mostly relegated to recreational activities  

The LBE smock idea is interesting, but strikes me as being very, very niche. I personally hate bulky shit in my pockets, just sits weird, bumps and rubs and overall is uncomfortable. Not to say its not a valid concept, but one that would require a specific user and mission. 

@diz I’d like to see the jackets you made up and the design ideas behind them. 

 

 

I'm with you.  As I mentioned in the vest/LBE discussions, our '64 pattern webbing had no mag pouches and the concept was that we would go into battle with 3 X loaded steel FN mags in our shirt pockets with the upper pockets filled with additional 7.62mm cardboard ammo boxes bouncing off your tits.  Hated it - obstacle crse was a bitch in the early 80s.  That's why we bought M14 or bren pouches at surplus stores.  Also, if all your important stuff is in your jacket, then you have to wear it all the time.  So, I'm with you on that - I don't like heavy stuff in pockets.

Good pockets give you options.  In 86, some "genius" decided to save money by issuing a shirt with virtually no pockets since, "we'll always have webbing on etc and therefore don't need them...Do you know how much pockets add to the manufacturing process?"  This around the same time as the UK Para AAR from Falklands War was making the rounds demanding that they get more "bellows" pockets vice flat ones for ad hoc usage - extra grenades, gloves when removed etc...

I have no hands on experience, but the SADF para smock looks like it has good pocket reinforcement.

The CBT shirt that was produced in the late 80’s early 90’s made sense. But, it was meant to be worn with BA, but because we are the CF it was never issued hence why it was so weird to use. Now we have just transitioned into a new shirt with pockets to fit under BA,  it keep the lower pockets with no ability to tuck the shirt in.  Sometimes I wonder if any of the geniuses in the puzzle factory know how to use the internet or have served in the CBT Arms after being in the Fulda Gap

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

Those old MkIII combat shirts from the 80's were still being issued to Cadets in the late 90's early 2000's at the survival school. Had we kept that design, and modified it as we went (sleeve pockets et al...), we'd likely be wearing a crye-ish field shirt uniform nowadays.....instead we're wearing a shirt with pointless chest pockets, flat useless lower hip pockets, and sleeve pockets.

clothing for wear with armour is a very different ballgame from those for not....as well as the difference between green ops, DA, dismounted vs mounted....so very many factors.

I found a good chunk of the time, especially spring/fall into very early winter, my Recce smock replaced my combat shirt. Wore it over a T-shirt, thermals, insulation layers, whatever. Combat shirt was pretty much useless.

 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

....being a LF'er is really bad for your pocketbook..

Like minds think alike and all that..before I even saw this thread purely out of the blue I said hmmm I wanna revisit the Smock concept looked around and found the SORD smock for 187 in my size in tan..so I said sold....then I said to myself how do I waterproof/ weatherproof it?...so I looked around and found the Arktis 310 liner...it's scary how we all think of the same stuff around the same time..like a tactical hive mind...

Anyhows now I'm on a full on Smock binge and looking forward to getting more..probably gonna try the SORD GP jacket/smock next. Was also thinking on the same lines of using my level 6 ecwcs stuff underneath.  Good info on the Red ledge Diz...you are fast becoming one of my fav SME on gear here at LF.

 

 

My top shelf smock, even above the DZ is my Vertex one I picked up at the NRA convention several years ago. I use it with a Patagonia puffy pullover or in colder weather, an Arteryx. For really cold weather, I go back to the DZ and put a North Face down jacket on under it

Location Texas.

 

"So what are you gonna do if we get hit on this trip?" "Me?, I'm going to shoot some good pics of you nuking their ass. You do your job, I'll do mine. If I have to do yours,(unless you're the medic) we're probably all screwed!" - Standard reply , from Desert Storm through Iraqi Freedom

com cam guy posted:

My top shelf smock, even above the DZ is my Vertex one I picked up at the NRA convention several years ago. I use it with a Patagonia puffy pullover or in colder weather, an Arteryx. For really cold weather, I go back to the DZ and put a North Face down jacket on under it

Ditto it's too bad they discontinued it..it fits more like a US style jacket than a true Smock style fit. It works really well in conjunction with the level 5 pants.

 

 

Here's that other smock thread I was  referring to.

https://www.lightfighter.net/t...est-in-smocks?page=1

And they still have the smock in stock it appears.

https://www.militaryclothing.c...t-WOODLAND-CAMO.aspx

_____________________________________________

 

Doug

If I mention Corona, I ain't talking about beer.

 

"It's your turn to do until it's not."  TA

 

"Afterall.... if you get yourself into a fair fight.. you really haven't learned anything in all the time you have spent on Lightfighter, your tactics suck, and you don't deserve to breed."  David Reeves

 

JOINED:  9/20/09     LOCATION:  Outside of KSA Finally!

FourNinerZero posted:

Those old MkIII combat shirts from the 80's were still being issued to Cadets in the late 90's early 2000's at the survival school. Had we kept that design, and modified it as we went (sleeve pockets et al...), we'd likely be wearing a crye-ish field shirt uniform nowadays.....instead we're wearing a shirt with pointless chest pockets, flat useless lower hip pockets, and sleeve pockets.

clothing for wear with armour is a very different ballgame from those for not....as well as the difference between green ops, DA, dismounted vs mounted....so very many factors.

I found a good chunk of the time, especially spring/fall into very early winter, my Recce smock replaced my combat shirt. Wore it over a T-shirt, thermals, insulation layers, whatever. Combat shirt was pretty much useless.

 

Non-Canucks bear with me in this seemingly internal garment history discussion.  I believe the concept of combat shirt design is applicable to all of us.

No offence to you youngsters (although R 711 could hardly be mistaken for one ;  )), but, I lived through that minor clothing glitch.  It may seem like the pocket-less shirt was "ahead of its time and just misunderstood".  No.  It was a stupid idea done in an attempt to save money.  We had just conducted 5 years of extensive camo trials and decided to stick with "monochrome green" (OD).  Then, with no trials or consultation, turned around and started issuing a fucked up shirt.  It was completely, universally rejected by all the Combat Arms who refused to wear it.  It coincided with the monumentally stupid PC new "Combat Team Commander's Aide Memoire"  tumble printed in both English and French without the ability to toss the non applicable language.  It was also standardized to be the same size as weapons pams - approx. 5 X 8 inches.  It effectively filled the basic pouch on one's webbing.  Stupid.  Thousands were printed and no one would use them.

With the benefit of hindsight, something more along the lines of the hybrid combat shirt would have been better.  However, it doesn't work in all situations and it makes CSMs loose their minds in garrison. Maybe a simple old school shirt (like our UK buddies used right up to the 90s. We don't want to breathe a hint of an interim garrison uniform.  I lived through that too.  Going to a 2 dress army was one of the smarter things we did in the 90s.

A shirt is a shirt and should not be expected to double as a smock.  As such, 49er0 is correct about utilizing combos of t shirts and smocks.  In hot weather, though, your basic "safari-style" gives you pocket options. Pockets have their place and can be very handy in a pinch.  It is bizarre that the FN ammo chest pockets lasted  so many decades - long after we changed rifles...

All that said, our current shirt is very much similar to the US one (albeit in different camo).  So the question is is this design finally optimal/workable/logical?  Thoughts?

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

I'm a youngster, ish anyway.....call me a middle age soldier nowadays? the proverbial senior corporal. Why was the MkIII shirt so reviled? Was it that it didn't work with load carriage of the time? foisted without consultation?

I've always been a fan of the brit uniforms, however, the latest PCS shirt is a bit weird. Large, flat chest pockets (which in of themselves are fine, but use huge chunks of Velcro to close and are a bitch to get into) and weird forearm pockets (wont fit padding, not pen slots, just weird to me anyway).

Crye-ish or insipired field pants, A field shirt, A hybrid combat shirt, and a smock would be an ideal start for a decent uniform.

I'm still wearing the older design shirt, not the newest model, so I cant comment with any authority on it. That being said, I rarely wore any issued kit when doing work in the field. Smocks, OTW shirts, and various layers offered far superior functionality over the issued garments.

Ive attached a photo of the MkIII shirt, just so we're all on the same page. mkliii

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

Attachments

Photos (1)

Hey, I joined in the late 80’s!

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

FourNinerZero posted:

I'm a youngster, ish anyway.....call me a middle age soldier nowadays? the proverbial senior corporal. Why was the MkIII shirt so reviled? Was it that it didn't work with load carriage of the time? foisted without consultation?

I've always been a fan of the brit uniforms, however, the latest PCS shirt is a bit weird. Large, flat chest pockets (which in of themselves are fine, but use huge chunks of Velcro to close and are a bitch to get into) and weird forearm pockets (wont fit padding, not pen slots, just weird to me anyway).

Crye-ish or insipired field pants, A field shirt, A hybrid combat shirt, and a smock would be an ideal start for a decent uniform.

I'm still wearing the older design shirt, not the newest model, so I cant comment with any authority on it. That being said, I rarely wore any issued kit when doing work in the field. Smocks, OTW shirts, and various layers offered far superior functionality over the issued garments.

Ive attached a photo of the MkIII shirt, just so we're all on the same page. mkliii

Whew, where to start?  So many factors: lack of vision/understanding warfighting, doctrine or lack thereof, procurement, timing, money, matching kit...If someone in Ottawa figured BA into the plan (not sure they were that smart), this is still not ideal.  Obviously, the chest pockets were enlarged to accommodate the issue field message pad (the carriage of which under BA would not work).  Each pocket had a row of pen slots along the front (like a nerdy accountant's pocket protector).  Anyone really going to wear 10 pens under BA?  Would a 10 pen type of soldier even be wearing BA?  Remember, at the time, we were too cheap to buy/issue BA (technically, still are).  Typically in an inf bn we only wore BA when firing on and staffing a live, field firing range.  That only started circa 89 (change in safety rules).  Before that, it was just helmets and webbing.  The BA  was Vietnam-era nylon flak jackets.  Institutionally (right or wrong) we weren't mentally, physically or logistically prepared for BA.  As range safety staff, I still used the lower pockets of my shirt for gloves, mine tape etc.  It worked with the current vest.  Anything that normally went into chest pockets (Silva compass, small notebook etc) went into the vest's chest pockets.

There was a "tuck the shirt in" camp, but, it was cosmetic and not for field effectiveness.  Service support guys who liked to wear their combat hats like Red Green (or Robin Hood) liked to tuck in.  Something no self-respecting infantryman would have done after 1970...It was a valuable recognition symbol - one could spot a REMF at over 300 metres that way...

We had just received new (and vastly improved) webbing (issue of 82 pattern started in summer 85).  The shirts were first modelled in 86 and issue began o/a 88.  In 86, we were told the shirt was in response to the new webbing.  Since it had mag pouches, utility pouch and butt pack; apparently no shirt pockets were needed.  The thought process being that a soldier wouldalways be wearing his webbing ergo....

Then there's the realities of LCF.  No one thought it had LCF (except for REMFs).  We'd been wearing the safari style shirt since the mid/late 60s and everyone still preferred it. Mercifully, today's younger generation seems less resistant to change.  Then there's the CSM factor.  Initial issue was slow - one for one exchange as current shirts "wore out".  Can't have a mix of different shirts in a bn (seriously, we were a lot more anal about things like that in those days).

Plusses?  Cheaper to make.  Less cloth.  Less stitching etc  (disposed of the internal nylon FN  mag sleeves inside lower pockets).  Could be tucked in.  Could fit issued note book in upper pocket while in garrison (although most units forced the troops to wear garrison dress sooo...).  That's about it.  It didn't really make webbing or BA any more effective...Didn't look cool.  Wasn't generally issued in any great numbers so it never had a chance to "catch on" and become the norm.  It seemed to be an un-needed and un-requested solution looking for a problem...complete wast of time and money.

 

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

R711 posted:

Hey, I joined in the late 80’s!

youngster...

As I may have mentioned to you before during our days in A Coy (sorry Hile - just slipped out), I was initially always the youngster.  I was commissioned quite young.  Anyone Cpl or above was older than me.  Thank God for 18/19 yr old soldiers or I would have been even more self-conscious.  I used to dream of the coming "age plateau" when I would be "normal". 

There is no plateau. 

It's a sharp peak.  One struggles  up the youngster side, eyes on the summit.  Then you wake up one day sliding down the other side and realize you are older than everybody else and just a boring old fart....

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

Ok this is for informational purposes only, as it relates to the topic of built-in load-carrying pockets/pouches on smocks.  

I made a run a "rifleman's" jackets for some team guys way back in the day.  They were purpose built for water ops, but illustrate the concept of using built-in-pockets-for-heavy-shit well.

This is the only pic I have of one of the prototype jackets.  

Bear with the shitty pic, but you can just make out a few things.  You can just make out the sew lines of the 1" webbing shoulder straps, which run through square patches of cordura on the inside, which support the double mag pouches.  The pouches were also reinforced with cordura.  Also if you look close you can follow the webbing down to the waist line, where belt loops are superimposed on the outside for an equipment belt.  And next to that, 3 web cinch straps on the sides to take the slack out of the jacket when the bladder was not inflated.  Two pockets on the shoulders and one high chest for E&E kit.  Down centerline, notice oral inflate tube just sticking out past collar (from re-purposed "flight deck bladder"), and zipper closure with snaps.  (BTW, after the first surf passage with this thing inflated, a beaver tail mod was quickly added!) 

This was essentially a vest superimposed on a Cammie jacket, with a chest rig built into it.  So carrying this forward, if you really wanted to explore the Cannuck concept of putting rifle mags on your smock, well, here's one way of doing it.  Nowadays, I would use 1" binding tape (maybe even 3/4") with 330 cordura as reinforcement.  I like the idea of using cordura as reinforcement with poly/cotton pockets/pouches.  This is in keeping with the idea of keeping all synthetics internal and using a cotton blend as an outer layer for camo, both visual and NIR.

Now the question is about sag on a smock sized for layers.  You might want to put some cinch straps in there somewhere to keep the mags (or other stuff) from banging around.  But granted this is a very specialized concept, maybe for certain missions.  In general mags belong in proper pouches, preferably on the belt line.          

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

On pockets.  I know this is heresy to some, but I replace the (exposed) Canadian buttons with Velcro.  If you look at the issue shoulder pockets, you can see the pattern I used.

So the top flaps were cut down and Velcro squares added.

Notice how the pocket extends up onto the top flap and folds over for secure closure.  

 

.I'm actually thinking on this lines now for the pockets on my SORD Smock...the pockets easily carry 2x rifle mags..in 5.56, 308 or AK...the velcro will certainly speed up retrieval of mags from the pockets but I'm also keeping the buttons for gp...im thinking of other mods for my Smock..like covers for the buttons..really wished they had done that from the shop.(they did do it on their GP  jacket version).. loop cord sewn on the bottom edges of the neck line so the cord line for the hood doesn't flop around and get in the way...you're an inspiration Diz..

Tested the Arktis liner in the rain and snow this weekend..its the bee's knees! Super lightweight, packable, windproof, waterproof yet still very breathable really wished I had discovered this sooner...they're still producing the jacket liner but sadly discontinued the pants liners..

Ordered another Smock in Multicam..scored a small for 118 AUD..92 USD!! So even shipped to the US it came out to 116 USD...the US store had the tan in small for 187 but normal prices for both versions is around 224..

 

 

Here's something a bit more conventional.  A 95 pattern smock in DPM, combined with woodland chest rig and belt kit.  This is my first smock mod.  Underneath, PCU L1 t-shirt, and L2 gridded fleece.  Hey Shoobie01 check out those shitty pace beads.  

This smock has essentially the same mods as the MTP one.  New main zip, rounded hood, shock cord cuffs, shock cord waist and skirt, and new mesh pass through pockets.  Still partial to DPM.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Ok this is for informational purposes only, as it relates to the topic of built-in load-carrying pockets/pouches on smocks.  

I made a run a "rifleman's" jackets for some team guys way back in the day.  They were purpose built for water ops, but illustrate the concept of using built-in-pockets-for-heavy-shit well.

This is the only pic I have of one of the prototype jackets.  

 

Nice.

Speaking technically as just a conventional guy with no gear-producing experience, I think many of our guys suffer from SOFCOM envy.  They see a HSLD  dude using something very specialized and they think, "if the specops guys are using it, I have to have it..."  Obviously the jacket you made was a niche item for specific, specialized missions for specialized guys - not us conventional grunts who'd probably put candy in the pouches...

Did they ever use something like this?

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

Yeah the Arktis is good kit.   Also checked out the CPGear stealth suit.  Very nice, complete gtx suit, jacket and trou for about 150.  Think I'm gonna try that one out.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yeah it saw some use, around 1989-90.  The original concept was for a patrolling jacket in the Rung Sat Special Zone, RSVN.  Although this jacket would still be very good for swampland, it was designed for another purpose.  They were transitioning from MAC-10's to M-4's, for their over the beach weapons for their scout swimmers.  Back then most weapons were dry-bagged, and only the scouts would swim in with wet weapons and secure the beach.  Once this was done, the boat crews would come in, and rig for land warfare, while the scouts set security.  So they wanted something to carry spare mags and kit for the swim in and initial recon of the beach. Normally a UDT vest (or two) was worn over all your kit for floatation.  The idea here was to get the bladder out of the way, and have reloads on top, readily available.

This was right before BA became a std requirement.  After that, the jacket was obsolete.      

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

As far as use for us, ok I'll jack my own thread.  It would still make an excellent jungle warfare jacket, in lowland swamps, and riverine patrol.  There was a CO2 pop on the lower left side, with the thought being if you go into a deep hole all of a sudden, you pop the CO2 to help get you back up.  Or you could also add or subtract air as required, via oral inflate tube, for stream/river crossings and such.

Still pretty specialized, no doubt, and the bladder will be hot unless you spend most of the day in/around water.  But no worse than patrolling with the UDT vest. 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Look at First Spears Recce Smock, it was designed for a Canadian unit to be able to carry all you needed to fight, mags, radios, IFAK etc. It grew into a monstrous beast

____________________________"Train for Peace, not war it is safer" Canadian Forces Light "You are on your way to visit death and destruction upon a village full of mouth breathers who would rather fuck their buddy than their uneducated toothless wife and who's most glorious moment in thier worthless lives is when they dance three circles around a meteorite and then cast stones at an imaginary devil. Ahhh, the simple pleasures", To quote GG

Diz posted:

Yeah the Arktis is good kit.   Also checked out the CPGear stealth suit.  Very nice, complete gtx suit, jacket and trou for about 150.  Think I'm gonna try that one out.   

Comes out to 305 CAD...about 230 ish USD for top and bottom..

 

 

Diz posted:

The Arktis set up is 305?  The CPGear is 155 Cad.  

..the CPGear set is 305 CAD as a set from their website..230 in USD for the set...the Arktis was 109 USD for the jacket and 90 for the pants at Arktisusa

 

 

Gore has new Shakedry garments, which look really promising as an emergency layer or under a smock/shirt. So far only in black, but really good looking. 

Sitka makes a jacket, as well as a couple cycling clothing makers, but its spendy ($299 usd for the Sitka) 

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-We are the sheepdogs, bad people looking out for the good people by killing worse people
-Don't get PTSD, Give PTSD. Make the taliban wake up screaming in the night because he fears Canadians are coming to Kill him.

-Location - Canada - Joined - 2006MAR19

Hi all,

Awesome read! I lived through most of the Brit iterations of clothing, joined in ‘96 but wasn’t issued the CS95 kit until ‘98.

The jacket I wore during training was zip n button up front, 4 square pockets, no  hood, DPM. Basically something you could iron the snot out of for locker inspections.

Very shortly after that we got the ‘94... twin zips on chest, 4 bellows pockets and still no hood. DPM was a strange yellow tint.

By this strange I’d joined the thousands and brought an SASS DPM smock. Lasted me until we moved to MTP.

Now we have...

MTP CS95 pattern with uncovered buttons and no arm pockets... just hook.

MTP PCU as above with covered buttons and arm pockets.

MVP PCU as above with black (later green) goretex liner built in.

SAS style garbadine windproof for cold weather stuff.

Owning all the above each have pros and cons. The only ones I used regularly was the MVP and the SAS style. The MVP was good for hours heads up in a wagon in the honking rain but that’s it. Too hot on foot.

Ive splashed on a Levelpeaks smock and while its great it’s heavy and bulky so it’s more of a “winter tour” smock for me. I still rock the SAS style garbadine more than anything. I modded mine to have a compass pocket on the chest and arm pockets for those in armour times.

Its funny, we all purchased SAS / Arctic style smocks for years so the CS95 was meant to replicate it so we used issued kit.... never really happened... in DPM or MTP. Guys are now doing the same. They either mod the issue or buy fresh. 

Most mods are hood removal altogether or at least get rid of the wire and visor. Wool cuffs seem a must (I’m not a fan).

Ill try and take some photos of my swag. Having just returned from a winter in Afg I mostly wore my Carinthia or Arcteryx warmers with the SAS style over the top for the extremely chilly nights.

 

Mac

 

“Do today what others won’t so tomorrow you can do what they can’t.”

Yeah pics in the wild would be awesome.  I am currently rocking out a Jay Jay's smock, which is very much in the tradition of the old school SAS smock; very light weight.  

You still can't beat this concept; a  soft shell  that ventilates, to dry out from the inside, rather than a hard shell, to keep dry from the outside, but soaks you in your own sweat.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Yeah it saw some use, around 1989-90.  The original concept was for a patrolling jacket in the Rung Sat Special Zone, RSVN.  Although this jacket would still be very good for swampland, it was designed for another purpose.  They were transitioning from MAC-10's to M-4's, for their over the beach weapons for their scout swimmers.  Back then most weapons were dry-bagged, and only the scouts would swim in with wet weapons and secure the beach.  Once this was done, the boat crews would come in, and rig for land warfare, while the scouts set security.  So they wanted something to carry spare mags and kit for the swim in and initial recon of the beach. Normally a UDT vest (or two) was worn over all your kit for floatation.  The idea here was to get the bladder out of the way, and have reloads on top, readily available.

This was right before BA became a std requirement.  After that, the jacket was obsolete.      

Thought that looked like a Scout Swimmer rig....

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism."         - Thomas Sowell

"A Republic, if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

 

LOCATION: ....

JOINED:  Feb 2012

     

Diz posted:

Yeah pics in the wild would be awesome.  I am currently rocking out a Jay Jay's smock, which is very much in the tradition of the old school SAS smock; very light weight.  

You still can't beat this concept; a  soft shell  that ventilates, to dry out from the inside, rather than a hard shell, to keep dry from the outside, but soaks you in your own sweat.  

Missed this thread the first time around.

 

DIZ,  

 

Ever think about adding a Coyote Ruff to it? (i.e like the Hill People Gear Windcheater).

you can get a Coyote ruff for $60.00, and a zipper for less than 8 dollars.  

https://www.glacierwear.com/fu...ruffs-fur-trim.html?

Sinister posted:
domestique posted:
Diz posted:  


Ever think about adding a Coyote Ruff to it? (i.e like the Hill People Gear Windcheater).

you can get a Coyote ruff for $60.00, and a zipper for less than 8 dollars.  

https://www.glacierwear.com/fu...ruffs-fur-trim.html?

THANK YOU!  Been looking for a source for years!

 

Great!

FWIW, it's the same company Evan and Scot Hill use too.

 

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