MSAR E4/AUG Questions and Advice

I just acquired an MSAR STG E4 (While the AUG is banned by name, the MSAR is surprisingly NJ legal) at a good price and I am looking for ways to set it up.



I ran about 300 rounds through it on Sunday without a hiccup. Definitely shoots different than an AR, but I like it. Intended use will be the same as my ARs: Possible SWAT duty and training, CQB to midrange engagement (RDS ranges)

 

I am specifically looking for advice on WML placement and switchology, sling setup, and BUIS choices (Troy Micros are the current front runner) and I have an Aimpoint PRO on the way for it.
 
Any advice on any "must have" accessories/upgrades, what spare parts are crucial to have on hand, and any TTPs on running it ie: mag changes, malfunction clearing, etc... Is also appreciated and welcome.
 
I know there are a few AUG/MSAR gurus here so talk to me. Photos of your setup can't hurt either
 
Thanks LF!

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

Original Post
Mate, if I was in CONUS, I'd teach you the ADF TOETS (Manual of arms) for a carton beer, a meal and some range time.

I think EdL has a copy of our Pam, and might be able to pass it into you.

Gimme some time, and I can put some crib notes together for you - I just can't type much with one hand rocking my little one's cradle.

Talk to Nyeti, aside from Aussie/NZ guys he's probably got more AUG time than anyone else here and he's familiar with US available accessories.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

22F you ever make it to the NYC area you got a deal!

 

MrMurph, I am hoping Nyeti chimes in here as well. Thanks!

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

Sent my contact via PM.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Nyeti should be able to set you straight. I bought an AUG A3 not to long ago along with several magazines from Pete Athens. Great price and service. At one time he sold the MSAR through his shop. He may be able to help if you need technical info. 

 

Mine is for range/fun only so I don't have a light on it at the moment. I have no doubt it could fit into a Patrol/SWAT role, but i prefer my AR platforms for that. I am using a Viking Tactics padded sling and a Vortex Spark. I've fired close to 1000 rounds through it so far and the optic has not failed me yet. last week I ordered a spare parts kit PJ's Aug's was selling as insurance and to have parts I may need on hand. Another shop, Ratworxs is in Illinois and they too have sold the MSAR and currently sell the AUG A3. Just another source for parts/accessories. 

 

Ive wanted an AUG ever since I watched Die hard 1 when I was younger. 

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

So I spoke to Nyeti this afternoon for almost a 1/2 hour. What a good dude. He filled my head with all kinds of AUG/MSAR goodness. Can't wait to get to the range and work some stuff out.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

Mate,

I've just quickly typed something up about ADF handling drills. I'm seriously thinking of doing some pictures for you to help clarify what I'm talking about.

 

But here's the text, pics to follow when I can get access to a dummy weapon in the next day or so.

 

There are four degrees of weapon readiness for the F88 (sorry, AUG).

 

LOAD

ACTION

INSTANT

UNLOAD

 

These are described fully as follows. I'll assume your right-handed for all this. What follows is a bastardised version of the ADF handling drills for the F88, I've removed some of the corporate silliness we have (such as removing the barrel to unload and check clear). Obviously, take what you need out of this to make this work for you.

 

1. LOAD:

The thumb of the right hand checks the safety catch is on “SAFE”.

Tilt the weapon to the right, allowing “workspace” and access to essential areas.

A magazine is inserted into the magazine well with the non-masterhand. It's a beer hand grip (refer to pic) with three fingers around the body of the magazine, and the pinky finger on the bottom against the magazine baseplate.

mag in - first move

 

A firm shove into the magazine well until it locks into place, with the hand transitioning to the bottom of the magazine baseplate. Once locked, a quick push/pull on the magazine to ensure it's properly seated. Do not slap the magazine into place, as during IA (Immediate Action) drills, this will cause rounds to jump and cause stoppages.

mag in - second move

 

Weapon state (LOAD) – safety catch to SAFE, working parts are uncocked, bolt forward, chamber is empty, finger outside trigger guard.

 

 

2. ACTION:

The thumb of the right hand checks the safety catch is on “SAFE”.

 

Non-master hand grabs cocking handle between forefinger and thumb (NOT heel of the hand). This is done by rotating the left hand clockwise so that the back of the hand is facing the right, grab the cocking handle with forefinger and thumb. Main reason for this is to prevent snagging fingers on optics and what have you, and ensure a clean operation of the bolt. It also prevents leaving major sections of hand flesh left behind on the weapon. She eats human flesh and enjoys it. 

IMG_0672

 

 

IMG_0673

 

 

When cocking the weapon, ALWAYS lock the cocking handle into the bolt hold open recess THEN “flick” the cocking handle from the bolt hold open recess. With practice, this “flick” allows the support hand to return to the forward grip to allow faster target engagement.

If not flicked from the bolt hold open recess, there is an increased chance of riding the bolt and the bolt not seating and chambering correctly. So always let the cocking piece fly out of the bolt hold open recess under it's own steam to ensure correct chambering and reduction of headaches later.

 

Weapon state (ACTION) – safety catch to “SAFE”, working parts are cocked, bolt forward, chamber has a round in it, finger outside trigger guard.

 

 

3. INSTANT:

Master hand grip must be relaxed and the pad of the hand, just below the trigger finger is (refer photo) is used to push the safety catch from “Safe” to “Fire”, then re-establish the hands grip.

Point of hand to disengage safety catch

 

 

SAfety catch step 1

 

 

Safety catch step 2

 

Safety Catch 3 further view

 

Weapon is brought up to the shoulder or other ready position.

 

Weapon state (INSTANT) – safety catch to “Fire”, working parts are cocked, bolt forward, chamber has a round in it, finger outside trigger guard, weapon to shoulder, looking over sights.

 

So, it can be seen that going from ACTION to INSTANT is just a matter of applying the safety catch.

 

 

4. UNLOAD:

The thumb of the right hand checks the safety catch is on “SAFE”.

Tilt weapon to the right.

Remove magazine from magazine well and stow magazine.

mog out - port side

 

 

mag out - starboard side

 

Non-master hand grabs cocking handle between forefinger and thumb (NOT heel of the hand). This is done by rotating the left hand clockwise so that the back of the hand is facing the right, grab the cocking handle with forefinger and thumb.

Pull back cocking handle, and lock it into the bolt hold open recess.

Check (visual or otherwise, depending upon conditions) that the chamber is empty.

 

Once clear, use the thumb of the support hand to “flick” the cocking handle out of the bolt hold open recess so that the bolt flies forward under it's own power.

 

Aim weapon in a safe direction, place safety catch to “Fire”, and pull trigger to drop the hammer onto an empty chamber. Place safety catch to “Safe”.

 

 

Ok, so that's the Degrees of weapon readiness. The usual claptrap applies about safe weapons handling, and so forth apply. Also remember that the suggested sequence of events to transition from a high state like ACTION or INSTANT to LOAD should go through the UNLOAD.

 

 

Ok, my favourite part – IA Drills.

 

The main stoppages we have for the F88 (sorry, AUG), is:

  1. Empty magazine

  2. Obstruction/double feed

  3. Gas (Carbon buildup in gas piston mechanism)

 

Bearing in mind, that I never carried a pistol when I was a young, dopey Diglet.

Like any good digger, I had my IA drills to a very slick standard and could (and still can!) do them half asleep, fully drunk, etc, etc. I noticed at SHOT Show this year that although I thought I was slow and out of practice, the blokes with me thought I was keeping pace with them using an M16/M4.

 

Alright, so the stimulus for an IA drill to be executed is “Weapon fires, weapon STOPS!”

a Weapon fires weapon STOPS

 

So, when “Weapon STOPS!”, it's summarised by the following:

TILT

COCK

LOCK

LOOK

 

Further explanation:

TILT the weapon to the right. One can remove the butt from the shoulder and raise the muzzle to a 45deg angle to allow better access to the workspace, but with practice, it can be done without removing the weapon from the shoulder.

b TILT

 

 

COCK the action, non-master hand grabs cocking handle between forefinger and thumb (NOT heel of the hand). This is done by rotating the left hand clockwise so that the back of the hand is facing the right, grab the cocking handle with forefinger and thumb. And pull the cocking handle all the way back.

 

LOCK the cocking handle into the bolt hold open recess.

 

c COCK and Lock

 

LOOK into the receiver area by rotating the weapon back over to the left and get eyes into the ejection port area.

 

d LOOK

 

From there, you can diagnose the problem.

 

  1. Empty Magazine:

Pretty self explanatory. There won't be any rounds in the magazine.

Tilt the weapon back over to the right to allow access to the magazine well.

A magazine is inserted into the magazine well with the non-masterhand. It's a beer hand grip (refer to pic) with three fingers around the body of the magazine, and the pinky finger on the bottom against the magazine baseplate. A firm shove into the magazine well until it locks into place, with the hand transitioning to the bottom of the magazine baseplate. Once locked, a quick push/pull on the magazine to ensure it's properly seated. Do not slap the magazine into place, as during IA (Immediate Action) drills, this will cause rounds to jump past the feedlips of the magazine and cause further stoppages.

 

  1. Obstruction/double feed:

For the purists, this can mean a failure to extract as well. But, short and dirty version is that more than a single round is in the chamber area and will not allow further functioning of the weapon.

There are two levels to this Stoppage Drill.

Level 1 – remove magazine, shake weapon to dislodge the obstruction.

If this doesn't work, then...

Level 2 – stow magazine in personal equipment, remove barrel from the receiver group and then remove the obstruction.

Replace barrel into receiver group, reload magazine as above, continue firing.

To be honest, I've only performed this drill once or twice, when the weapon or ammunition (generally blank) was filthy. Never had a problem with live ammunition.

 

  1. Gas stoppage:

After extensive firing, allowing a build-up of carbon on the gas piston to prevent full functioning. So this will only occur after a great deal of firing without cleaning. You'll notice the weapon start to slow down on it's cycling, where it starts to lose “oomph” for extraction and feeding.

 

There'll be rounds in the magazine, but no rounds in the chamber. On the second time occurring, the drill is to apply safe.

Bring the weapon down to an accessible level.

With gloves on (or use your bush hat), twist the gas plug to “More Gas” - it's going to be bloody hot. I've only just noticed the scars on my fingers have faded, more than ten years later.

Reshoulder the weapon.

Push safety catch to “Fire”, and continue firing.

 

 

Hope this helps mate!

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

Attachments

Photos (14)
Wow - Awesome! Thanks brother!

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

You're very wlecome High Exposure. Like I said, gimme some time, and I'll get pics to accompany the text, just to further clarify a few things.

 

Out to you.

 

Thanks Pat, just occasionally have to prove I'm not here just to drink beer, scratch my balls and piss on the carpet

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

Im very interested in one of these, keep the updates coming.

 

I doubt it would replace the AR15 as Ive got 20 years behind the trigger, but the magazine compatibility and small size is appealing to me. 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

If it weren't for some of the logistical issues involved with the AUG in the US, I would be running one as my primary.  If I can find a good swap for one of my multitude of AR's for an A3 AUG I would probably go back to using one more.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Alright, I finally got some pics done today and have edited them into my post.

Hope this further clarifies what I'm talking about.

 

Enjoy!

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

That's awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time! It is greatly appreciated.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

You're welcome mate, glad you find it useful.

 

As an old F88 user, some random thoughts about how I would set the gat up for use:

 

A light could be mounted on the forward portion of the optics rail. Due to the cocking handle, and the length of the rifle and how it interacts with gear, I would ensure the WML is on the right hand side. You'd need some sort of wireand pressure pad to the forward grip.

 

Back-up iron sights are going to be a right pain in the arse for you, simply because of the limited rail space. I'm not sure if it's worth the effort, but if you really need BUIS, then I'd think of something like Unity Tactical's Fusion mount to make the most out of what rail space you have.

Behind that, you could get an Aimpoint T1, I have no idea whether a mid height (like for HK416) or high mount would be needed.

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

Awesome posts, 22f.

 

 

Two major  things I learned when running the AUG:

 

1. Make sure the gas is on the right setting,  It is easy to confuse this:

 

 

2. When reloading from the bolt back be sure to "push then pull."  Do not slap the bottom of the magazine.  Below are a few scans from the Australian Manual:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Ed!
I was wondering how soon until you came along

 

Some maintenance pointers:

Unlike the M16 FOW, very minimal oil needs to be used in this weapon. Just a few drops in bearing areas as needed.

Keep oil out of the hammer mechanism, and away from the buffer springs in the bolt group.

 

Use graphite powder on the hammer mechanism in the butt group.

 

Linz is probably going to be the best one for this, since he was a Q-wallah.

=======================
Forward!
Where we are, where we belong, where we should be.

  

Location: Back in Bris-Vegas, wondering at the bright lights of the big smoke

As a Q wallah (I prefer the term ‘Jam Stealer’ myself) Linz has used them a fair bit on the range & in competition- but less so in the field.  I’d say that some of the Oz or NZ members here have much more experience in using them in field condition than Linz.

 

Cheers,

Linz

I forgot to tell you on the phone....use paint or nail polish to mark your gas plug plunger position.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by nyeti:

If it weren't for some of the logistical issues involved with the AUG in the US, I would be running one as my primary.  If I can find a good swap for one of my multitude of AR's for an A3 AUG I would probably go back to using one more.  

And thanks to a member here……..IT is inbound.  I will try to update as I return to spending time on the heathen bullpup thing.  I'll be working through light mounting and optics, support gear,etc.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Originally Posted by The Rat:

Looking forward to it!

 

I have been lusting after an AUG A3 CQC NATO lately, and good info on their setup and use is hard to come by.

 

(Behind enemy lines, so the standard version that takes AUG mags is a no go for me.)

AUG mags are some of the best mags I have ever used, so I very much prefer the variants that take them.  I have a safe full……(sorry NSA, I meant "1") of AR's if I need something to take AR mags.  I am not a big fan of having a firearm use a magazine that it was never designed for.

The CQC…….my big internal debate.  They look bad ass, have lots of usable rail, BUT…that is all weight in all the wrong places.  I am working on a story for the Surefire mag on high lumen weapon lights (you know, the ones that are "too" bright, cuz they'll "blind" you) and I need a solid mounting platform.  I am torn between the small right side rail piece with a long tape switch cable to the front grip, an offset off the top rail, or likely the Steyr two piece rail that replaces the front grip.  I am thinking a Tango Down stubby on the bottom and an EAG Fury on the left side thumb activated maybe the ticket.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Check out the replacement rails from Ratworx.  They have one that replaces the VFG.  I've thought of getting one, but haven't taken that step yet.

 

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I looked at the Ratworx.  It just adds rail to the bottom for the Steyr, which is the last place i want it.  They carry the factory Steyr Rail that I am leaning to.  It will either be the Steyr or the CQC conversion from PJ's.  

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Was thinking about upgrading my A3 with the CQC rail would be interested in your thoughts after/if you get one.

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

So…. you want me to spend the money, send my receiver off for fitting of the CQC rail and then assess for you to make a decision………..  Well, at least I know for sure this is Lightfighter

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Thank You. I appreciate it. I'm almost 100% sure I will be doing the same thing, after Christmas, but I wanted to hear your thoughts first. When I bought my AUG from Pete Athens he tried talking me into buying an A3 with one already installed. I was on the fence  then. I just really wanted a Steyr Aug, since 1988, and really didn't plan on shooting it much. I have since started shooting it more and would like to set it up properly. 

 

Again Thank You for your future purchase and review. I know your going to buy one.

 

LPD "People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives." - Theodore Roosevelt

"Again Thank You for your future purchase and review. I know your going to buy one."

 

 

Arggggghhhh  the gig is up.  They can read my mind through the internet…….

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Looking forward to this greatly.

 

The one thing that I am curious about, but have not been able to find an answer to, is with regards to suppressor compatibility on the CQC. Specifically, if it will be able to mount a Surefire SOCOM suppressor when equipped with the appropriate muzzle device. From photos, I cannot tell if the CQC rails will leave enough room for one.

Originally Posted by The Rat:

Looking forward to this greatly.

 

The one thing that I am curious about, but have not been able to find an answer to, is with regards to suppressor compatibility on the CQC. Specifically, if it will be able to mount a Surefire SOCOM suppressor when equipped with the appropriate muzzle device. From photos, I cannot tell if the CQC rails will leave enough room for one.

IIR the CQC uses a 16" barrel with an extended flash hider.

So with the Surefire in place there may not be clearance to mount the suppressor.

----------------------------------------------------- I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

All the regular AR stuff is too high.  I use "HK 416" height stuff with good results.  I "think" the CQC rail is a little higher than the normal A3 rail.  

 

After messing around with the new A3 for the last couple of days, I am leaning towards just leaving it the way it is.  I will be mounting a 500 Lumen Scout on the side rail.  The idea is to keep all the accessories on the receiver so the barrel can be easily separated.  I may go with the Scout on the right rail, and then get another barrel with the Steyr rails and run a dedicated 1000 Lumen Fury on that setup for a dedicated low light set up.  I am not in the group that is afraid of "blinding" myself with "too much" light.  I want the sun attached to the gun if I can.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Nyeti,

Thanks for the gouge on the sight height issue.

 

Will you be doing any trigger upgrades to your A3?

 

I have a 1/7 twist A3 inbound and am curious if I need to be looking at anything more?

 

Is the AUG pretty good to go right out of the box?

You need to get used to the trigger.  I run them fine, but I hear that there is a new little metal part that drops into the pack and works well.  For $28 I may try it.  My A1 has a Giles Stock trigger job, but I wouldn't trust ANYONE other than Giles to touch an AUG pack.  I am used to shooting tough triggers.  I cut my teeth on an HK 91 for rifle stuff and carried a HK or Sig DA/SA pistol for most of my career, so I am on the "take up the slack and press" method on everything, and don't get too wrapped up on triggers.  I actually have a little more take up put into my Glock triggers.

 

The only thing AUG's "Need" is a good optic, and a white light.  Otherwise, they are kind of like Glocks in that they tend to work best when left alone.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Re lights.  Years ago, I shot a class with a guy who was running an AUG.  He had a Surefire flashlight mounted to the barrel with a scope ring type clamp so he could hit the light with his support hand thumb and still remove the barrel without issues.

 

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Add Reply

Likes (17)
Gigolo Soldier of LoveK.O.A.M.Parker7887GLOCK10MMMatlockburkevadudedadAvtech850Linz22Echo7HorsemanTheTunalpd540822FBeat TrashAntoniusHigh Exposure
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2019
×
×
×
×
×