MSAR E4/AUG Questions and Advice

Rat,

The gas setting on the AUG determines how much gas is exhausted.  The bigger the hole, the more gas goes out the port and NOT into running the action.  That is different than the barrel gas port on an AR where a larger hole means more gas in the system.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Ok. I see. The normal gas setting. But as long as it works don´t change it and keep using PMags.

 

But I am sure that the constructors have a reason for this setting on our rifles . Might sound counterintuitive. But on the other hand more gas gets into the system and accelerates the whole mechanical sequence of events. And this over-acceleration isn´t the best thing for an AUG.

Setting the valve on GR will highly likely not change the situation for you because I think that your gas valve is different to the mil ones (concerning the pattern and size of the holes).

Rat: “There was still a little flip when in the prone, due to the mag monopod position having the mag further to the rear than an AR. (Can't bear down on it the same way.)”

 

Prone position & rocking: if it fits in with how you want your AUG set up, put a forward grip on & then either:

 

A: rest the grip on top of your clenched fist, even ‘lean’ on to the fist

B: grab the bottom of the grip with a clenched fist & used it as an extender for the grip.  Typically, I’ll grab the grip with my forefinger & thumb, resting the bottom of the grip on the top of the clenched other fingers. With the clenched little finger on the ground

 

This should reduce the rock, particularly on rapid.

 

Grip wise, I tried getting the best of both worlds by crudely integrating a Magpul AFG onto a standard AUG folding foregrip- sorta worked.

 

Cheers,

Linz

I posted a couple on the last page. If they weren't clear enough I can take some more no problem.

 

I'm looking at the Steyr USA manual that came with my rifle, and the gas regulator is in what the manual calls Position 1, on the small dot, What I'm puzzled about is that it says Position 2 is for use "under adverse conditions, such as cold weather or when the STEYR AUG is dirty." Wouldn't it make more sense for that position to be pushing more gas back into the action to overcome the cold/dirtiness, rather than less?

 

Just thinking to myself. Still going to try the Lancer mag again with it set to the #2 position next time I'm in a non-match setting.

From the gas regulator pictures here, it looks like the normal position has a bigger hole and the adverse position has a smaller hole, which as far as I understand it, would push more gas back into the action: http://www.randomgunstuff.com/...s-and-initial-review

 

(Mine is a Sabre manufactured A3, so I doubt they would have reversed the gas hole sizes compared to the ones in that link.)

Rat,

 

The "Adverse Position" with the smaller valve-hole lets less gas out of the system and directs more gas into the system.

On the newer mil versions there is no adverse position anymore. I have taken some pictures to show the difference between normal gas setting (you can see the edge of the smaller hole in the valve/regulator) and the suppressor setting (no visible edge anymore; the inner hole is slightly bigger than the outer hole). Consequently this setting lets (even) more gas exhaust, which means less stress and no over-speeding of the system when using a can. 

 

suppressor setting and suppressor

 

the big hole in the valve/regulator

 

standard setting (you can see the smaller hole of the valve)

 

suppressor setting (no edge of the valve-hole visible)

Oh wow. So they DID change things up compared to the US version, that's pretty interesting. Definitely more useful for you.Thanks for the pictures/explanation!

 

Linz: That would be an option, but drilling a certain hole size through my gas regulator is a bit beyond my abilities in terms of doing work on guns. I like having the 'off' position just because of how little noise it makes when suppressed. Although. . I'd be less averse to drilling out the adverse position to make it match how Hagen77's is set up above. I don't shoot Wolf/Tula, so I wouldn't really need a setting that throws more gas back into the action. What size of hole is that?

Rat,

 

I don´t think that they changed the US version. It´s just the difference between the civ and the mil model. The regulator of my civilian AUG A3 isn´t the same as my mil version either.

The hole is about 2,8 mm. But it´s more easy to drill it to the size of the outlet (just look at the pictures again).

The problems with Tulammo and Wolf are common. The powder of this ammo reportedly burns fast and creates gas pressure peaks in the chamber area leading to a lull of gas pressure at the gas port. The bolt carrier group of an AUG is quite heavy and needs power. I encounter the same problems (malfunctions) when I shoot Tulammo with my civ AUG A3 on standard gas setting. When I set it on adverse it works.

If Rat could pick up a spare plug & have it modded as part of his suppressor kit?

 

Incidentally, it would be worth examining the Thales plug for their latest version of the F88...which is suppressor compatible.

 

Cheers,

Linz

 

 

 

 

I am confused about the port setting indicators. Here is a quote from the manual that came with my civilian, VLTOR manufactured A3:
"Position one, which is used under normal conditions, indicated by a small dot..."

"Positions two, which is used under adverse conditions is indicated by a big dot..."

Is the above incorrect?

 

Thanks!

 

You may be confusing Dot with Hole. There's a dot stamped in on the body to the rear of the regulator part you twist as well. I agree it's confusing though in position, size and inverse mapping to the port size. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Whew, match report. New data to add. Out of about 4 mags worth of ammo, had 4 stovepipes. In each case, there was a round going into the chamber, just the ejected case had gotten stuck on the way out. This has not happened before. This means that it's probably overgassed like you guys have been saying, right?

One more thing to add. My support hand looks like I took the ring to Mount Doom and jerked off a Nazgul in the process.

 

 

It was much blacker before; a lot of it rubbed off from putting my hands in my pockets and such. No burns or anything, just a lot of carbon.

 
Rat,
 
What kind of ammo were you using? I am getting the same malfunction when running Wolf through my A3 on a standard gas setting. This happened with a clean rifle as well. 
Interestingly enough, when I switched to "adverse". The rifle started malfunctioning more, producing stove pipes in addition to the failures to extract you mention. To clear them, I have to mortar the rifle. I experienced the same malfunction during the second half of a 2 day training class after putting 1000 rounds of Wolf and not cleaning the rifle from the day before (wanted to see how it would do).

Whew, match report. New data to add. Out of about 4 mags worth of ammo, had 4 stovepipes. In each case, there was a round going into the chamber, just the ejected case had gotten stuck on the way out. This has not happened before. This means that it's probably overgassed like you guys have been saying, right?

 

Freedom Munitions new mfg 62gr. It shoots pretty accurately, but I think it's loaded a little hot. Has given me issues on my 14.5" middy up until I replaced the extractor, extractor spring, and upgraded the buffer to an H2 from an H. The AUG wasn't cleaned, but I did throw some drops of lube into it yesterday.

 

None of today's malfs with the AUG required mortaring. I was able to clear them faster than I would say the steps out loud. And the time they added to that particular stage was mitigated by the fact that I had a brain fart and used more ammo/time engaging targets than I should have.

 

At this point I'm interested in some more info about drilling out the adverse port on my gas regulator. Just want to be sure of the size and everything, since a replacement is $95 if I fuck it up and drill too wide.

Rat,

It's difficult to give you a remote diagnosis of your malfunctions. Did you still shoot with the suppressor mounted when you had the stove pipes? Then it could still be the cause that the system gets to much gas. One indicator of an AUG that runs too fast can also be that the brass gets ejected to the front rather than to the rear. But ejecting front can also be an indicator of a weak ejection spring, which was a common problem for some time here.
I have also had a student in one of my civilian AUG classes once, whose rifle permanently ejected front without having a weak spring or an over pressured system.
Give me some time and I am probably able to come back to you with some info on the regulator hole size.

Are your fingers black from finger-fucking the chamber area when clearing the malfunctions, or did you get too close to the gas exhaust?

All rounds fired were with the suppressor attached, yeah.

 

As far as ejection goes, I don't really remember where it was going during the match. However, during my zeroing session last week, I remember that most of the brass was flying off to the 1-2 o'clock, with a few being thrown out not nearly as strongly to the 3 o'clock. Almost dribbling out.

 

I think the black fingers are from gas exhaust coming from the bottom rear of the suppressor, since my hand is so far forward up there on the CQC rail.

what mags were you using?  i had malfunctions just like that with my A1 when using US made AUG mags (they are US made if there is a clear square around the round count numbers on the body).  switched back to Austrian mags and all the problems went away
 
 
Originally Posted by andy:
 
Rat,
 
What kind of ammo were you using? I am getting the same malfunction when running Wolf through my A3 on a standard gas setting. This happened with a clean rifle as well. 
Interestingly enough, when I switched to "adverse". The rifle started malfunctioning more, producing stove pipes in addition to the failures to extract you mention. To clear them, I have to mortar the rifle. I experienced the same malfunction during the second half of a 2 day training class after putting 1000 rounds of Wolf and not cleaning the rifle from the day before (wanted to see how it would do).

 

 

_________________________ I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

Pmags. I have a NATO stock on mine, so it can take AR mags. It was the only realistic option for me given that Colorado passed that idiotic 15rd mag cap law and I'm sitting on a pile of AR mags. No way for me to legally acquire AUG mags.

Concerning his pictures Rat uses the NATO stock with MP magazines (and also Lancer mags that are increasing his problems).

 

Rat,

using the can and having brass going off to the 1-2 o´clock position normally indicates an over-pressurized and too fast running system (without guarantee of course). Just as a side note again: a weak ejection spring can cause a similar effect (including malfunctions). Do you get the same malfunctions (and direction of ejected brass) when shooting without a suppressor?

 

If you really try to drill a bigger hole for a suppressor setting into the regulator, I would suggest to buy a spare one and build a "suppressor regulator", leaving the original one unharmed. I would not relinquish the possibility of an adverse setting.

 

Here are some comparison images:

Size of the exhaust hole A3

 

Mil version:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome, thanks for the pictures and explanation!

 

So if I'm seeing the pictures right, the normal setting is .072 and suppressed is .101, correct?

 

As far as a spare regulator goes, I do actually have the original 16" barrel w/ extended FH that the AUG CQC came with, along with the gas regulator attached to it. From what I remember, the AUG had a pretty regular 3 o'clock-ish ejection pattern when unsuppressed, Admittedly I wasn't really paying attention at the time. Definitely didn't have any malfs when I was testing it out unsuppressed though.

 

Sometime in the next week I'll get out and check the ejection pattern unsuppressed vs. suppressed before I drill anything out. If I'm reading you right, if it's the ejector spring, it'll have the same kind of malfs/ejection pattern without the suppressor, right?

You are welcome.

 

Correct. At least these numbers were shown by the vernier caliper. For the suppressed setting the hole can be equal (or better exceed) the size of the exhaust hole in the gas cylinder tube. This should be good to go then.

I am sure the whole thing also depends on the size and kind of suppressor. At least it works with the shown setting and an Ase Utra JetZ.

 

Correct concerning the ejection spring. If brass still ejects to 1-2 o´clock (standard gas setting) it could be the spring.

 

But look at the video (especially slow motion). You will see the ejected brass of the first shot (barrel and system full of water = high pressure) going forward (watch the impact at the water surface) and the rest going to the rear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c-FzU-sa9Y

 

 

Austrian mags.
what mags were you using?  i had malfunctions just like that with my A1 when using US made AUG mags (they are US made if there is a clear square around the round count numbers on the body).  switched back to Austrian mags and all the problems went away
 
 
Originally Posted by andy:
 
Rat,
 
What kind of ammo were you using? I am getting the same malfunction when running Wolf through my A3 on a standard gas setting. This happened with a clean rifle as well. 
Interestingly enough, when I switched to "adverse". The rifle started malfunctioning more, producing stove pipes in addition to the failures to extract you mention. To clear them, I have to mortar the rifle. I experienced the same malfunction during the second half of a 2 day training class after putting 1000 rounds of Wolf and not cleaning the rifle from the day before (wanted to see how it would do).

 

 

 

Water in the bolt carrier is absolutely not a problem.

At the end of the whole day of taking the footage and putting the rifle into this mud pit again and again (and above all shooting the rifle over and over again with this liquid dust in it) some malfunctions started to occur because of the extremely fine mud particles that were washed in and cumulated in the bolt carrier group tubes. But this can hardly ever happen in real life.

Managed to throw a mag through my AUG unsuppressed at an indoor range today. The ejected brass was going out to roughly the 2 o'clock position. No malfunctions. Pretty small sample size, I know. Didn't shoot it suppressed since my can was on another rifle and was very, very hot at the time. From what I remember though, when suppressed the brass went to the 1 o'clock area.

So, I got a couple spare gas regulators to experiment with. I drilled out the adverse setting on one of them with a .107 drill bit (didn't have a .101 around the house.)

 

Went out today to test it out. Bad news was, I forgot my targets. Good news, a patrol of infiltrating Canadian snowmen was successfully intercepted and neutralized.

 

I kept it on the suppressed (.107) setting the whole time. First 10 rounds I did unsuppressed, and was surprised to find that it was still cycling just fine, with the brass ejecting about 5 feet away at the 3 o'clock position.

 

Then I put the suppressor on and ran it fast and hot. Brass ejection was around the 2 o'clock position and I had zero malfunctions out of the five mags that I ran.

 

My hand afterward, again with the carbon venting out of the back of the suppressor:

 

So in summation, a huge amount of thanks to my source for the gas regulators and Hagen77 for the gas port measurements. Looks like it's working fine now!

what kind of accuracy is typical from an AUG?  with my 20" AUG-A1 with the old school 1.5x donut of death reticle, my groups tend to be in the 0.625"-0.75" range at 50 yds and 2-3" at 100 yds using high quality 62 and 77 gr rounds

_________________________ I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

2-4" at 100m is about what I get.

 

I feel like the trigger is the limiting factor for me more than anything. Really hoping that Ratworx starts putting out their HTM trigger packs again, or that someone releases something trigger-wise at SHOT.

Rat,

Look for one of these:
https://www.ratworxusa.com/?q=node/113

I have one in my MSAR, it is a night and day difference. With that part installed it feels similar to an SSA trigger with a short pull.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

I've been hemming and hawing on one of those for a while now. It seems like a more solid option than the trigger tamer/NEU trigger for sure.

 

If no one comes out with anything with this coming SHOT show, I'll probably go ahead with one.

 

Does it change the break weight at all, or just the travel/reset?

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