I got to shoot a local manufacturers AR9 a few weeks ago and the low recoil, mvb stock, and the upper had a 6.5 inch barrel.  Talking with surefire last week and they will have an adaptor for a HK MP5 mount and a AR-9mm mount early next year if testing is good to run a surefire ryder 9 on it.   I have bee wanting a mp5k for a long time but cost, parts, and mag cost were the factors.  Also my wife only really knows Glocks and M4s.  An AR9 would be useful but I see this more of a fun and rocking a suppressed 9mm around.

This version takes Glock mags and looks like the JP but with a mvb stock to make it more of a pdw.  Thoughts, I know its not optimal but...it does scratch an itch, has some kind of place, and I already have a 2 10.5 inch ARs a LWRCi and LMT so a small 9mm would be fun.  

http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.13_GMR-13.php

https://mvbindustries.com/product/arc-stock/  Here is the stock currently on it, I was wondering if the lwrci uciw stock would work with a blowback design.  

Original Post

I'm seriously thinking of building one also. I will probably use a Quarter Circle 10 lower (Glock mag compatible) and try to use mostly Colt parts for the other stuff. I was thinking something like a 5" ish barrel and have a longer rail that the suppressor is recessed into. Like you mine would be mostly for fun, so it is not really a priority right now. 

Is your LMT a MRP?  Spikes tactical used to make a 9mm barrel and bolt..... they are extremely rare right now since Spikes stopped making the 9mm, and 22lr. kits for the MRP.  I would love to find a 9mm barrel  for my LMT MRP. I found a 22lr barrel and bolt last year for 300 bucks used.  A 9mm barrel and bolt wold be the cheapest option, and would allow you to run the same optics you have on your 5.56.  

 

I personally never liked the 9mm in AR rifles. They always seemed like a giant afterthought.  IF I had a huge supply of Glock magazines and was buying a Glock compatible lower I would probably think differently and try one out.  

 

I personally went with CZ Scorpion for a 9mm PDW.  It is designed for that round and is currently being used by a couple of Nation's police/military forces.  Another option is the Sig MPX. It shares a lot of AR style controls, and can convert to 9mm or 40, but is pretty expensive and parts availability currently suck.  If I was going to Sig MPX money,  I would probably just buy a nice MP5 clone.

 

I really like 22lr. for a trainer AR for the wife.  It uses similar shaped magazines (so she can use the same magazine pouches), it's cheaper than 9mm, and it is a LOT quieter than 9mm suppressed (good for the neighbors).  

 

The dark horse option: buy a 300 blackout barrel for your LMT MRP ($350.00 bucks).  This gives you a subsonic round and the potential to also use supers.  If your LMT isn't an MRP, take a look at the BCM offerings.  I think the sale is currently $725.00 with a KMR handguard, BCG, and charging handle.  

The only thing my 9mm PDW does that 300blk doesn't do, is give me a subsonic round with greater expansion when using factory 147 grain hollow points.  For 300blk you would have to buy some exotic and EXPENSIVE Lehigh rounds to get the same level of expansion.  

 

 

I do mot have a MRP lmt.  It us their standard LMT upper.  I wish I did but its one of those things I did not look into back in the day of piston.  Just because at the time I had 2 lwrci's.

I am looking at moving full tilt back to the Glock for the next full years.  With twins due in 2.5 months and all that.  

My .22 trainer is a Sig 522.  Not the best in the way of the same as the AR but it is fun and does alot.  

I guess with having done some close in work with a mp5k-pdw and having just bought a Surefire Ryder 9 I started looking at all options.  

I own a Beretta CX4 in 9mm that I do not shoot much, bought it as a truck gun because I had 5 Beretta 92's at the time.  Its reliable but I cannot suppress it until spending about $700 in parts threading and all the work due to 922r requirements.  

I was thinking the CZ but mags, parts, and I know I will always buying glock mags and AR mags.

300blk I like it but now I have to spend alot in bulk ammo to get to where I want to be.  I am focused on buying .223 and 9mm right now due to the stupidity of well election season.

I recently built and SBR'd a NFA Glock lower. I was adverse to a 9mm AR with the plug.

I run Glocks and think that with these proprietary lowers it is a viable option. Bolts are abundant, barrels are around, it's a handy little PDW. I sold my Kel-tec Sub2k to build it. 3-lug adapter and an Octane 45k makes it even more attractive. I will still be getting a CZ SBR.

 Right now I am trying to figure out if a Vltor's A5 system and which buffer system will work on the 9mm AR.

---------------------------------- 'My lot in life is to serve, to the best of my ability. To know my life was not a waste, that in the end I can look back from the gates and know I did my best and that it was enough"

Space, work and holiday shopping is taking up all my time. I will try to get you some specs and a pic or two today.

---------------------------------- 'My lot in life is to serve, to the best of my ability. To know my life was not a waste, that in the end I can look back from the gates and know I did my best and that it was enough"

I just took a different route.  The Zenith/MKE MP5 pistols are built in Turkey on actual HK licensed tooling and I've always had a hard-on for one, despite certain drawbacks.  In anticipation of the run that has already started with the Dems doing their customary gun-ban blather, I "bit the bullet" and ordered one from Atlantic Firearms.  It arrived earlier this week and it is definitely a fun toy.  I'm registering it as an SBR and it will be my 9mm shoulder gun.  I started to do the math, calculating purchase of barrels, uppers, handguards, receivers, etc., and went directly to "fuck it, I'll buy the MP5"!  At the end of the day, it was going to end up costing me about the same and the HK has a better rep for reliability than the 9mm AR's.  Plus cool points and I didn't own an HK.  Bonus that it came with 3 mags and an optics mount.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

My 9mm AR15 is perhaps one of the most enjoyable and fun carbine that I currently own. It is a traditional COLT style with flat top.

Built it with mostly used parts and use a standard AR with unk brand mag well adapter, 9mm hammer and a used RRA BBL and BCG upper (which has a COLT pattern BCG.) Bought a new Aero precision Flat top upper without the F/A.

The used BCG had been neglected (read: RUST) so I ended up replacing all internals with COLT brand guts. (Firing pin, FP Spring, extractor, etc)

It uses COLT pattern mags. Bought the Metalform mags through Brownells and the thing runs like a swiss watch.

Feeds all ammo. I have some +P and +P+ Federal that I want to Chrono for fun.

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

I've been in the exact same boat.

I've wanted a pistol caliber carbine of some kind.  Ideally, it would be a .45ACP, but nobody currently makes one I like for a price I'm willing to pay.

A buddy of mine has an SBR set up pretty similarly to the post above me, and it is just plain fun to shoot.  Currently, living a couple miles from Montana Gold bullets, and being able to buy seconds for $60/1000, I can reload 9mm for 10 cents around, so can shoot these things pretty guilt free all day.  I ended up going with the CZ Scorpion, however; it is at my local manufacturer, in NFA jail, waiting on the paperwork; I didn't want to take it home before it was a functional gun.  The mags were a concern, I just bit the bullet, and bought 20 extra mags with the gun ($20 a piece right now, lord knows in another year).  I went with the Scorpion because I've wanted one since they came out, and I fear at the minimum some sort of import restrictions will be forthcoming, and an imported weapon full of 'evil' features is pretty low hanging fruit.

Back to the topic.  I think it does have its place as a suppressed, subsonic weapon.  With proper bullets designed to expand at the velocity you're launching them.  Mine will very likely become my wifes bedstand gun.  It will have zero recoil, minimal noise, and even with the red dot, white light, and 30 rd magazine will still be light and handy.  I think my OAL of the barrel with the suppressor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 13." 

 

If you want it even a little bit, and can get it for a price that you can live with, I would jump on it.  I think this coming year is going to be a mess with legislation....

________________________________________________________

Some will die in hot pursuit in fiery auto crashes

Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes

And some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain

That is pouring like an avalanche, coming down the mountain

 

Joined: June 2011

Location:  Kalispell, MT

SBR or pistol? Small distinction, but $200 extra in price, wait time, etc.

Generally, two ways most people go - dedicated block, like the Hahn, Colt SMG mags, 9mm upper. Other route is the Quarter Circle designed around Glock mags, which have been getting rave reviews and are really priced competitively for a dedicated lower. I would expect you'd still see slightly better reliability of the true double stack Colt SMG mags, as opposed to tapered Glock mags, but interchangeability, convenience, and all that isn't a trivial concern.

 

I've been pondering this, 9mm offers some benefits in the form of cheap ammo, but .45 is an awesome suppressed option. The Quarter Circle large frame lowers look ripe for some interesting builds.

 

You could also watch for sales post Christmas, RRA has some great uppers and all you need is to pick up some mags and the lower block.

 

Obviously Scorpion gets you a lot of the same functionality at a good price, same as Sig MPX, minus the good price. BT has some good offerings coming online, and if the PCC craze really takes off, I think you'll see a lot of new companies stepping in. I'd love to see what SW or Ruger could do in this space, as long as it was AR based. My feeling is if you don't have to have it now, there could be a whole bunch of great new options introduced at SHOT. This, suppressor capable, and budget precision are my bet for where development goes this next year.

You can also look at Lone Wolf for 9mm ARs  https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=2895.  They are branching out of the 9mm arena, so maybe they'll offer .45 some time in the future.  I bought a pistol lower a while ago; still  trying to figure out the upper I want with it (what barrel length I want? what "rail" I want? etc.) .  From the lower, the quality actually seems pretty good.  I've bought SOME Glock stick mags, I should probably buy more while the buying is good.  I always saw this as a good "truck gun",  but also a good  "AR" for my wife.  While I'll never see a 9mm as replacing a 5.56 or even  a .300,  I do see it as a viable option when you can't go full size.


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

AR Specs

- New Frontier Armory Spartan 9 Glock lower. I handled one of these and then a QC10 lower. I liked the fit and feel or the NFA lower over the QC10. The QC10 has the last round bolt hold open built into the lower (and I have heard it can be hit or miss). NFA has their bolt hold open built into their upper if that's your thing.

- QC10 7.5" barrel with HK Three lug adapter

- NFA's modular BCG, thinking I should of gone with their normal BCG so I can use a JP capture 9mm buffer and spring.

- Aero COP Carbine upper

- BCM/Magpul Furniture goodness

- MBUS Pro's

- Magpul padded sling w/QD points

I like the 9mm AR set up because it's the same Manual of Arms as what I have trained on. Also, the 9mm AR takes standard AR parts (except the proprietary lower parts which I ordered an extra set of). The 9mm lowers take a  standard FCG, pins, etc and I like the threaded bolt catch pin and rear detent pin is a plus.

I mocked up the build, no FCH/BCG in it PM me for more info.

A few pics of the barrel with device

---------------------------------- 'My lot in life is to serve, to the best of my ability. To know my life was not a waste, that in the end I can look back from the gates and know I did my best and that it was enough"

Spacetaco posted:

Here is the one I am looking at.  This is a factory built SBR

The 9 AR. I am looking at.

 

Question folks, I was thinking of putting Fixed Irons on the AR Pistol since I need to send my aimpoint micro and see if they will fix it with m stupidity of striping a screw.  

 

What sight options for fixed sights would be good for this short of barrel if I don't keep the micros on there?  The plan is the micros on there now will go to my Beretta ARX-100 I bought as a deployment gift.  

If Ruger brought back the PC9, with a few rails, better trigger and Glock mags, they'd probably sell a hell of a lot of them in ban states.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

MrMurphy posted:

If Ruger brought back the PC9, with a few rails, better trigger and Glock mags, they'd probably sell a hell of a lot of them in ban states.

Ruger wouldn't need any of those upgrades to sell em in the ban states....that's for sure...

If they just brought them back people would snatch them up...I would...even if they took ruger pistol mags

Since this thread got resurrected: I have an SBR'd AR. I got rid of my 9 mm carbines years ago, but now IDPA has a Pistol Caliber Carbine class, so I can bring a "rifle" to those, and get some action shooting practice when that happens, so it seems worth getting one again. Instead of a new gun and paper, I'd like a mag block and short (10.5?) upper to simply clip onto my normal rifle. 

IS THERE a good mag block for 5.56 lowers? I am unclear on this when I research it, and don't know anyone with one now. 

Who makes the best uppers? Why doesn't BCM make a 9mm, dammit? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

For those interested Midway has had the Glock 33 round 9MM mags on sale for $24.99 for a couple of weeks running. Showing as "available" this A.M.

Mojo/Mark
__________________________
Yo homey, is that my briefcase...?
Vincent from "Collateral"
__________________________
You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
__________________________

That's one... 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

shoobe01 posted:

Since this thread got resurrected: I have an SBR'd AR. I got rid of my 9 mm carbines years ago, but now IDPA has a Pistol Caliber Carbine class, so I can bring a "rifle" to those, and get some action shooting practice when that happens, so it seems worth getting one again. Instead of a new gun and paper, I'd like a mag block and short (10.5?) upper to simply clip onto my normal rifle. 

IS THERE a good mag block for 5.56 lowers? I am unclear on this when I research it, and don't know anyone with one now. 

Who makes the best uppers? Why doesn't BCM make a 9mm, dammit? 

I know this isn't a gaymer site but this is why I want a 9mm carbine too. The updated rules are no longer restricted to >10"  barrels so that opens up MP5s, Uzi, SBR Skorpion Evos and (locally very available) pistol-carbine conversions like Hera and Roni, locally the cost of those last two is prohibitive, they are like 1/3 the price of a 9mm AR.

 

Sourcing a Glock mag lower here looks impossible   so we are stuck with a locally made DM4 in 9mm or a Stag 9mm. The Stags use blocks and IIRC Colt SMG mags in a standard lower. 

The DM4 uses a block too, but getting any info on parts from them is rather hard. 

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

Location Cape Town, South Africa

 

Responding a month later as I sold the never-used M70B2, so re-invested the money into this, which just arrived:  

I don't strictly use IDPA for gaming, but as confirmation of my otherwise-trained skills, and as practice, as we have a lot of walls and doors, so it's a real good place to do cornering and so on. Monthly! We're usually indoors, so can turn off the lights, so trying to get them back into regular low-light, also. 

Our club is going to be a little weird on the PCC class (safety worries, mostly), so they won't be allowed every month, but a couple-three times a year. Still, worth having I think. And maybe they will start allowing it generally, and I can then get monthly close-quarters carbine practice in. 

It's a bit cheap, in that it has a shitty setscrew FSB...

and a forward-assist + shell deflector upper...

but it has all the parts I need in one box, and a ramped bolt. With a 4 pack of NIW mags (so now 6 total!) I am under $500 invested, which is a hell of a deal compared to the complete guns I was looking at. And we all know ARs. If I fall in love, I can change the receiver, get the gas block, replace the FSB, et al. 

Once zeroed and I confirm the FSB isn't canted, I'll run it as it is for a bit to be all amusingly old school. But sometime I need to get a gooseneck, a dot and light to make it more like my 5.56 carbines. 

Kayback posted:
shoobe01 posted:

 

...

...this is why I want a 9mm carbine too. The updated rules are no longer restricted to >10"  barrels...

When did this happen? Have a link? As none of our club seems to know this, and the IDPA rulebook online doesn't show under 10" being allowed.

 

 

P.S. mods, this not-unrelated thread of useful info is still off in Carbines and Rifles: https://www.lightfighter.net/t...40#47474438023815040 Should be, as the last post there says, moved.  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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I bought a Colt R6430 9mm carbine back in 1992. For $650. At that time some of the local departments were using Colt & Marlin & Ruger carbines as replacements for or in addition to shotguns.  From about 1998 on everybody went to "real" AR-15 pattern guns.

I use the Colt 9mm frequently as a practice gun. I can use it on indoor ranges that are restricted to pistol calibers only, I can shoot it on steel plates without specialty ammo, and the manual-of-arms is the same as all the other AR pattern guns I already own or that ride in my squad car.

And USPSA and IDPA both have PCC divisions now and I am classified in both. If you set up your AR 9mm carbine basically the same way you set up your "real" AR, then the 9mm works good as a sub-caliber trainer.

I bought a half dozen more Colt pattern mags from Palmetto State Armory a year ago last spring and they have worked really well.

**********************

arm yourself, because no one else here will save you . . .

 

he found faith in danger, a lifestyle he lived by

 

Assemble the Kingsmen

There's a certain zen idealism to not being that successful at my business. I got caught up, had nothing really urgent to do this afternoon, so just blew off work and went to the range. 9 mm upper day!

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

Oh, this is somewhat shocking because I have the cheap plastic mag block, and even modified to be bottom load so it has no real retention, but friction and it works fine. 

Oh, it was sketchy retaining mags, so I switched to a "9mm" mag latch. Which I just switched to. Works fine for 5.56 also. Just different grind so it engages deeper, but there's an awful big lump on 5.56 mags so it should be fine. 

It's been a minute since I had my HK94 clone, or my Calico, so I was expecting quieter. Maybe it's the 10.5" barrel, but it's a bit stout. Well... I thought. Luckily I shot the 5.56 upper at the end of the day to re-set my brain IT IS MUCH LOUDER. But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

Wasn't zeroed, despite being used. I assume this is proof no one shoots: I never get used guns or uppers that are zeroed. Idiots. Anyway, despite looking twisted, it's not so far off I couldn't get it zeroed. 

 
My cheapass 115 practice ammo suuuucks. Every fifth round makes a weirdly different noise. I switched to the much nicer 124s I just got and they were good. But, not the gun. 
Ejects the /exact/ same place as the 5.56 upper does. Little 3 foot diameter pile of both at the end of the day. 
 
Questions:
  • Do I need to worry about buffer, spacer, anything if it seems to run fine? Lots of internet commandos spread info about them battering and stuff but is that true? 
  • Where do you zero 9mm carbines/SMGs? I did 25 yds as that's max range for at least the club range, where I will likely use it, so I can sortsa simulate "far away" and aim dead on, account for offset shorter 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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Also, mag carriers. I got rid of all my 9mm SMG sorts of stuff long ago, so had to buy something, and elected for a double 10-speed in belt config. Partly as it was suggested in some other carry thread recently. It's nice. 

Harder to insert the mags than a single stack, or 10-speed rifle pouches, but holds these very long sticks real well. 

I might even try them if I had to conceal under e.g. a suit jacket all day. They feel that stable and secure. 

What's everyone else using? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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Just finished my AR9 pistol build,

 

Rainier arms upper receiver

Aero Precision 9" Mlok handguard

8.5" faxon barrel with KVP linear comp

Faxion 9mm BCG

spikes pistol buffer and springco red spring

Spikes 9mm Glock mag lower,

Upper and Lower small parts from my parts bin

SB Brace

 

 Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, I was planning going to go to the local indoor Fudd range yesterday, but messed up my shoulder. 

AR9

It looks awesome. I'd be terrified of shooting my finger off. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

"I'd be terrified of shooting my finger off."

Be very afraid. Circa 1995-6, the FBI Director got tough with all senior supervisors from HQ and made them requal with all Bureau weapons. A SSA I worked with, a senior FCI supervisor went to Quantico and shot. Handgun went well, on an HK MP5 he shot the end of his left index finger off. 

I imagine he hurt like hell, but the shock also did damage to his hand and arm, he had an external brace (lay term, I'm sure it has a fancy med term) with bolts going into the arm up the forearm.  So in addition to what I'm sure was an umcomplimentary nick-name in HQ, he was seriously injured.   Go figure. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

“Speak softly and carry a big stick;  you will go far. “

 Theodore Roosevelt

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Joined: 29 May 2008          Location: AZ

shoobe01 posted:

It looks awesome. I'd be terrified of shooting my finger off. 

Thanks, I do kinda wish I went with a flat sided upper, but I'd picked up the rainier on sale a while ago. There's enough stuff at the front of the gun that you have a good idea where your hand is relative to the end of the tube and am not super worried about it eating fingers, That being said I do have a hand stop on order. 

My COLT factory 9mm is keeping the 16" barrel for now but it is pretty straightforward with Magpul furniture, Gunfighter charging hable and nib MRO I picked up for $300. Needs a light and maybe KNS FCG pins

Runs like a raped ape and I found a case of old school Federal Hydrashok 9mm +p and +p+ from when we carried MP5's cant wait to try those out with the 16" barrel

Maybe will SBR it at some point give my overall price point in its current configuration is under $1000 im happy with it.

 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

shoobe01 posted:

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

...

But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

My biggest issue when I used to shoot a Colt SMG a bunch was not feeling that it was in lock-back or rather that it DID NOT go back into battery.  For whatever reason, the full cycle (or lack there of) of a .223/5.56 bolt was/is so much easier for me to distinctly feel.

Have you run it hard yet?  I’m curious if you’ve noticed the difference and missed a lock-back when running it under any type of stress.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

Nothing like real stress. Just range time. Some running about to various ranges, shoot on the move etc. but no one watching, someone else's COF. 

It is a bit weird feeling under recoil just at that point. Much more reminiscent of a 9mm SMG than I expected (or recalled from the distant past). Weird, huh? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

It is a bit weird feeling under recoil just at that point. Much more reminiscent of a 9mm SMG than I expected (or recalled from the distant past). Weird, huh? 

For as much as the platforms are similar, it is odd when you pick up on the differences in bolt cycles. 

I’m curious to hear your impressions if/when you shoot it in a match. 

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

TheTick posted:
shoobe01 posted:

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

...

But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

My biggest issue when I used to shoot a Colt SMG a bunch was not feeling that it was in lock-back or rather that it DID NOT go back into battery.  For whatever reason, the full cycle (or lack there of) of a .223/5.56 bolt was/is so much easier for me to distinctly feel.

Have you run it hard yet?  I’m curious if you’ve noticed the difference and missed a lock-back when running it under any type of stress.

I know exactly what you mean, I frequently can't tell where my 5.56 Tavor's bolt is because the recoil impulse feels so different from an AR.

We finally had a PCC day at the local IDPA club. Got to shoot my carbine, and... didn't notice the cycling differences so much. Felt a lot like shooting a suppressed 5.56 outside (it's an indoor range) so none of the horrible blast, but I didn't notice any weirdness in the action, etc. So, works great under "stress" as a carbine simulator. 

The big dumb RDS on the gooseneck (I have a fixed carry handle and FSB) worked as intended. Saw nothing but the dot, and the target. Worked great. 

I did fuck up two things during the COF that prove my point I need to make this part of my routine shooting; there's not as much opportunity for using my real carbine at close ranges, with barricades, etc. So, I reloaded before leaving cover, then went to fire and got nothing. Bolt had locked back, but I didn't notice and fell into handgun/cqb speed reloading, so didn't rotate the gun, etc. and check like I otherwise would. Fail! 

Also, ranges got deceptive, so I didn't hold over enough. Decent enough shots, but all a bit low because whoops. Also, fail: need to do it more. 

Academically knowing and getting the reps are two different things. These are perishable skills and I don't do it enough! 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Not sure I have seen a better example of it being all about the shooter, not the gear. Here's my IDPA scores from last month shooting the iron sighted UMP .45 that's not mine, and my RDS'd AR 9mm upper on the SBR lower I shoot all the time. 

#5 Steven Hoober... 5 point down,  36.95 clock time, 41.95 total time

#6 Steven Hoober...7 points down, 41.53 clock time, 48.53 total time

I am not even sure which is which! Okay, I'd guess the worse one is my gun due to the offset mentioned above. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I put this AR together for use in IDPA/ USPSA PCC category last fall. I have a couple of other 9mm PCC, but they are SBRs and I wanted something that wasn't an SBR for competition. I was shocked by how soft shooting this AR was, compared to my MP5 clone and Sig MPX. I'd shot some 9mm AR's before this one and thought they had a weird recoil impulse. I went with a Colt style lower because that is what the local dealer had in stock and he cut me a good deal on it. 

 

9mm AR

(Sorry for that delayed edit, but I had to take a massive dump when I was trying to post this yesterday, and did not get a chance to comeback and fix my post)

Joined: October 2007.                       Location: Nebraska

 

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Any specific reason not to use the SBR for competition? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Any specific reason not to use the SBR for competition? 

I wanted a PCC that could travel out of state without the hassle of NFA paperwork.  I don't know when I'll travel out of state since I struggle to get to local matches, but now I have an option. Also, I thought it would be a fun to put together.

Joined: October 2007.                       Location: Nebraska

 

Okay, time to admit I like RDS, and the pistol carbine should be an emulation of my 5.56 guns instead of something amusingly retro. Flat top, and a 7" alpha rail.  

Since mine is pretty cheap, it only looks like a Colt at a distance, but runs like a top, I am gonna take it apart so I keep the bolt and barrel and so on. 

Questions: 

  • If I don't need a fixed front sight, I can just not put the FSB back, right? No gas system so it doesn't do anything but be a sight right? 
  • I am gonna do the gas diverter and half-sized dustcover. Since it will be random clutter, does anyone make a truly slick sided (no fwd assist, no brass deflector) upper with a pic rail? 
  • Do I need to time the barrel nut as though it has a gas tube passing through, or just tighten to the specified torque and not worry about where exactly it ends up? 
  • Anything else tricky to assemble a "subgun" upper I haven't though about? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

It’s been a while since you posted shoobie so you may have found your answers. 

1. You are good without a FSB, a number of PCC barrels don’t even have the option. 

2.  Nordic components and dpms have completely slick options but don’t have dust cover options either. On the quality side CMT is probably your answer if you can find one, on the cheaper side maybe look at the midway/AR stoner brand. They have billet options that are slick sided with dust cover, they also have a dedicated PCC upper which is what I built mine on.  

3. Timing may or may not matter depending on the barrel nut/rail interface. Depending on what model Troy rail I believe you will still have to time the nut.  

4. I didn’t run into anything specific running a dedicated new frontier/joe bobs lower and dedicated PCC upper but PCCs can be notoriously picky, there’s a guide somewhere on barrel length to buffer weight recommendation  but I can’t find it now. 

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Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Nope, haven't found anything yet but to be clear: I was only going to change the receiver itself. So the barrel, bolt, everything stays the same and barring some oddity I cannot imagine, it should run just as well as it does now. Which is weirdly fine. Same mag latch and buffer for 5.56 suppressed/not, .300 suppressed/not, and 9 mm. It's a miracle. Don't jinx it!  

Good note on the float tube clamping to the nut. The rail probably times by the nut being properly timed, or something, so I'll do it like there's a gas tube. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Take a look at the Cross machine    UPUR-4, should be what you need. 

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Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Took some of your advice, faked some, made at least one stupid choice:

Wrenched. The old gun was weird. Some accuracy issues may have been the gun, as the barrel nut was not much more than finger tight. And with no gas tube? Eeek. No serious problems getting it together. 

And now, finally, I can with minimal embarrassment or alibis, present a complete (AR-15 series) family photo:  

I guess I could have made it bulkier by including the AR-shaped training rifles (most of which also have the TD battlegrip, same sights...), but forgot. Anyway:

  • 9mm upper
  • .300 upper
  • 5.56 upper on the SBR lower (WML removed temporarily to fit MILES for next weekend)
  • 5.56 16" complete rifle, restricted megaforce use only

And finally now the 9mm is not just fun but has some more direct training value when I haul it out at IDPA, etc. Same lower,  

So, took it to the range. Which sucked. See, the weather gods do not want me to shoot. Weather here has been variable, but mostly rather pleasant. Yesterday I was out doing my little chores or watching the boy play in shorts and a t-shirt. Mid-50s, and sunny. 

But for several MONTHS now, its always, always, always in the 30°s, windy, often raining or sleeting or something. Today, no different. We get snow later. So I blew off my bolt gun and maybe in a few years the range will be nice enough I can figure out what's wrong with that, but I did pretty quickly zero the 9mm, blasted away for fun, and as a last thing I loaded up 10 rounds of the 124 Geco (I do only 124s generally, but often my ammo bag is mixed with whatever I bought). 

Laid down on the zeroing bags again. (Note, the magnifier is stolen from the 5.56 upper. It won't normally be on here). 

And in no small measure because you all were asking about 9mm accuracy, did a supported slowfire at 75 yds (because it has an overhead. I'll do 200 when it's nice sometime). 

4 moa dot, and my bad eyes, I bet the gun is better than this, and needs to be a bit tweaked on zero still, but I am happy. 

And the gun is handy, familiar. When I was briefly running and gunning just before this, did all head shots and never dropped one from about 60 down to 5 yards. 

Bolt hold open failed 100%. I guess something doesn't fit quite right, or snapped off my cheap plastic mag adapter. Have to look into that. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Finished the most frantic work emails, now puttering again to avoid the rest: 

9 shot group is 3.25". With all 10 it's 5" but I am comfortable calling that a flier. 

 

The bolt hold open is not broken, just sticky. I basically forgot the magwell adapter is a machine itself and needs to be maintained. Mostly yes just a fixed block adapter, use my existing mag latch, but...

...there's a sliding bit for the bolt hold open. Which is now gummy. Got it to work half the time at home after a cleaning, but I think I need to take the time to unscrew the two halves, try not to loose any of the tiny pieces, vigorously clean, grease, and re-assemble. Lots of plastic, so that's risky I bet, but I see no other way.

Plastic and aluminum, so I think the ultrasonic is a no go, right?  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Does anyone still sell flattop "9mm" uppers with the deleted F/A and shell deflector, but with provision for dust cover? RRA used to, but now they have a custom 3/4 length ejection port which cool and would be fine, except:

I want a slick side upper for building 5.56 on... Aero Precision makes an upper with the F/A deleted, but still features the shell deflector.

Not quite an answer, but I couldn't find one. Hence just sucked it up, went with the shell deflector (no FA) version of the Aero one. It's not... bad. I don't mind the Colt style plastic gas deflector in the ejector port, but do wish I could get the fenced, no-deflector style. 

Were they EVER made or was that only a carry handle style? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

AR stoner (midway house brand)  has a billet upper without FA and deflector but still has a dust cover. 

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Damn you all to hell!  Made me read through this entire thread again.  I don't need any more guns.  Really.  I've got enough to legitimately supply my kids, and in the event of a Boogaloo, my reliable neighbors.  Want does not equal need.  Moving on.

I have three 9mm SBR's.  Not particularly practical, but more nostalgic.  Semi-auto Sterling, Uzi and the aforementioned, MP-5 clone.   I have steered away from AR based 9mm guns for a couple of reasons.  Maybe expressing them will result in someone telling me that they aren't an issue.  And since I already have an SBR AR15 lower, there is always the attraction of a 9mm conversion, not a whole new gun.

Issues:
1.  Recoil.  Obviously, we're not talking hard recoil, but because they are blowback guns, the bolts are heavier (more reciprocating mass),  so the recoil more than a gun like the Sig MPX.  Which I have never shot.  So maybe I'm wrong.

2.  After lots of reading, they are apparently prone to breaking hammer pins.

Not really an issue, but considerations.  Magazines.  I know the Glock magazines are popular for the convenience, but that is a significant alteration in the lower receiver and the magazine release.  Plus it is a single feed vs. double feed.  The Colt magazines appear to be reliable, but can be pricier.  Uzi magazines will work with a new cut for the magazine latch.  However, they won't hold the bolt open when empty.  

As best I can tell, the Hahn magazine block that fits from top is the best.  

An AR conversion is simpler, and maybe, as SHOOBE01 has pointed out, can be done relatively inexpensively...especially since I already have an SBR lower.  I think from a purely functional standpoint, the Sig MPX gives you all of the operating commonality,  but at a substantial cost.  Ok, those are my ramblings.  May you be as tempted as I am.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I believe the hammer pin breakage is mismatching bolts to hammers. I forget the details, but confirmed mine was relieved properly to match my fire control. The default is often an M16 shaped bolt tail*, which work fine on M16 hammers, but do /something I forget/ regarding pushing at angles (?) when cocking the hammer, which causes the pin to get overloaded, and eventually it breaks. 

I also sorta think that a similar issue with 5.56 F/A bolts and S/A hammers might have caused much/all of the pin hole wallowing that resulted in all the anti-walk, anti-rotation stuff.  

 

* Remember, straight blowback so the 9mm bolt is sorta the 5.56 bolt-carrier. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

There was just a thread on School Of the American rifle FB group about the pins (for those on FB search SOTAR it’s got quality info and they try keep it professional) what was brought up is that the broken pins were caused by non ramped BCG and most have been fixed by this point. CMC also makes a drop in specific to the PCC guns and some people run sig MPX which help with the issue as well. Improperly set up buffers also can attribute to the problem. In my research there appears to be an ideal weight between the bolt/buffer combo to reduce wear and increase reliability, 18oz from memory but don’t quote me.  Some Carriers have removable weights and some don’t, ideally one would run one of the longer buffer weights which limit travel and adjust weight as needed. Some of the extended buffers come with an assortment of weights, otherwise weight the carrier then order the needed buffer. Standard buffers can be used but it’s advised to run some form of spacer to limit travel. I opted for the longer weight to maintain normal spring pressure as I wanted to run a standard carbine spring for the time being, I felt this gave me better tuning options in the long run as there’s no tuning the gas system.  Just to throw another option out there new frontier armory makes colt mag lowers, Glock mag lowers, and MP5 mag lowers. There’s a part of me that would like to run an mp5 mag lower with one of the PDW stocks from maxim and a fox trot mike forward charging upper to achieve and mp5/AR bastard child of a range toy.  

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Someone mentioned S&W.  I was going to swing by their booth at SHOT anyway, but that's something I'll definitely look for.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Sig USA is the only large American company making a modern 9mm carbine and pistol in a balls to the wall platform.  Ruger is doing quite well with the PCC, but it is geared to the lower profile sportsman.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a braced Charger style version of the PCC, but not exactly the same thing.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

In my experience for conversions, buy the Hahn top loading mag well adapter, dedicated 9mm hammer

Hammer pin breakage , i recommend KnS non rotating hammer/trigger pins

magazines - COLT or Metalform all the way 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

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