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I got to shoot a local manufacturers AR9 a few weeks ago and the low recoil, mvb stock, and the upper had a 6.5 inch barrel.  Talking with surefire last week and they will have an adaptor for a HK MP5 mount and a AR-9mm mount early next year if testing is good to run a surefire ryder 9 on it.   I have bee wanting a mp5k for a long time but cost, parts, and mag cost were the factors.  Also my wife only really knows Glocks and M4s.  An AR9 would be useful but I see this more of a fun and rocking a suppressed 9mm around.

This version takes Glock mags and looks like the JP but with a mvb stock to make it more of a pdw.  Thoughts, I know its not optimal but...it does scratch an itch, has some kind of place, and I already have a 2 10.5 inch ARs a LWRCi and LMT so a small 9mm would be fun.  

http://www.jprifles.com/1.2.13_GMR-13.php

https://mvbindustries.com/product/arc-stock/  Here is the stock currently on it, I was wondering if the lwrci uciw stock would work with a blowback design.  

Original Post

Is your LMT a MRP?  Spikes tactical used to make a 9mm barrel and bolt..... they are extremely rare right now since Spikes stopped making the 9mm, and 22lr. kits for the MRP.  I would love to find a 9mm barrel  for my LMT MRP. I found a 22lr barrel and bolt last year for 300 bucks used.  A 9mm barrel and bolt wold be the cheapest option, and would allow you to run the same optics you have on your 5.56.  

 

I personally never liked the 9mm in AR rifles. They always seemed like a giant afterthought.  IF I had a huge supply of Glock magazines and was buying a Glock compatible lower I would probably think differently and try one out.  

 

I personally went with CZ Scorpion for a 9mm PDW.  It is designed for that round and is currently being used by a couple of Nation's police/military forces.  Another option is the Sig MPX. It shares a lot of AR style controls, and can convert to 9mm or 40, but is pretty expensive and parts availability currently suck.  If I was going to Sig MPX money,  I would probably just buy a nice MP5 clone.

 

I really like 22lr. for a trainer AR for the wife.  It uses similar shaped magazines (so she can use the same magazine pouches), it's cheaper than 9mm, and it is a LOT quieter than 9mm suppressed (good for the neighbors).  

 

The dark horse option: buy a 300 blackout barrel for your LMT MRP ($350.00 bucks).  This gives you a subsonic round and the potential to also use supers.  If your LMT isn't an MRP, take a look at the BCM offerings.  I think the sale is currently $725.00 with a KMR handguard, BCG, and charging handle.  

The only thing my 9mm PDW does that 300blk doesn't do, is give me a subsonic round with greater expansion when using factory 147 grain hollow points.  For 300blk you would have to buy some exotic and EXPENSIVE Lehigh rounds to get the same level of expansion.  

 

 

I do mot have a MRP lmt.  It us their standard LMT upper.  I wish I did but its one of those things I did not look into back in the day of piston.  Just because at the time I had 2 lwrci's.

I am looking at moving full tilt back to the Glock for the next full years.  With twins due in 2.5 months and all that.  

My .22 trainer is a Sig 522.  Not the best in the way of the same as the AR but it is fun and does alot.  

I guess with having done some close in work with a mp5k-pdw and having just bought a Surefire Ryder 9 I started looking at all options.  

I own a Beretta CX4 in 9mm that I do not shoot much, bought it as a truck gun because I had 5 Beretta 92's at the time.  Its reliable but I cannot suppress it until spending about $700 in parts threading and all the work due to 922r requirements.  

I was thinking the CZ but mags, parts, and I know I will always buying glock mags and AR mags.

300blk I like it but now I have to spend alot in bulk ammo to get to where I want to be.  I am focused on buying .223 and 9mm right now due to the stupidity of well election season.

I recently built and SBR'd a NFA Glock lower. I was adverse to a 9mm AR with the plug.

I run Glocks and think that with these proprietary lowers it is a viable option. Bolts are abundant, barrels are around, it's a handy little PDW. I sold my Kel-tec Sub2k to build it. 3-lug adapter and an Octane 45k makes it even more attractive. I will still be getting a CZ SBR.

 Right now I am trying to figure out if a Vltor's A5 system and which buffer system will work on the 9mm AR.

I just took a different route.  The Zenith/MKE MP5 pistols are built in Turkey on actual HK licensed tooling and I've always had a hard-on for one, despite certain drawbacks.  In anticipation of the run that has already started with the Dems doing their customary gun-ban blather, I "bit the bullet" and ordered one from Atlantic Firearms.  It arrived earlier this week and it is definitely a fun toy.  I'm registering it as an SBR and it will be my 9mm shoulder gun.  I started to do the math, calculating purchase of barrels, uppers, handguards, receivers, etc., and went directly to "fuck it, I'll buy the MP5"!  At the end of the day, it was going to end up costing me about the same and the HK has a better rep for reliability than the 9mm AR's.  Plus cool points and I didn't own an HK.  Bonus that it came with 3 mags and an optics mount.

My 9mm AR15 is perhaps one of the most enjoyable and fun carbine that I currently own. It is a traditional COLT style with flat top.

Built it with mostly used parts and use a standard AR with unk brand mag well adapter, 9mm hammer and a used RRA BBL and BCG upper (which has a COLT pattern BCG.) Bought a new Aero precision Flat top upper without the F/A.

The used BCG had been neglected (read: RUST) so I ended up replacing all internals with COLT brand guts. (Firing pin, FP Spring, extractor, etc)

It uses COLT pattern mags. Bought the Metalform mags through Brownells and the thing runs like a swiss watch.

Feeds all ammo. I have some +P and +P+ Federal that I want to Chrono for fun.

I've been in the exact same boat.

I've wanted a pistol caliber carbine of some kind.  Ideally, it would be a .45ACP, but nobody currently makes one I like for a price I'm willing to pay.

A buddy of mine has an SBR set up pretty similarly to the post above me, and it is just plain fun to shoot.  Currently, living a couple miles from Montana Gold bullets, and being able to buy seconds for $60/1000, I can reload 9mm for 10 cents around, so can shoot these things pretty guilt free all day.  I ended up going with the CZ Scorpion, however; it is at my local manufacturer, in NFA jail, waiting on the paperwork; I didn't want to take it home before it was a functional gun.  The mags were a concern, I just bit the bullet, and bought 20 extra mags with the gun ($20 a piece right now, lord knows in another year).  I went with the Scorpion because I've wanted one since they came out, and I fear at the minimum some sort of import restrictions will be forthcoming, and an imported weapon full of 'evil' features is pretty low hanging fruit.

Back to the topic.  I think it does have its place as a suppressed, subsonic weapon.  With proper bullets designed to expand at the velocity you're launching them.  Mine will very likely become my wifes bedstand gun.  It will have zero recoil, minimal noise, and even with the red dot, white light, and 30 rd magazine will still be light and handy.  I think my OAL of the barrel with the suppressor will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 13." 

 

If you want it even a little bit, and can get it for a price that you can live with, I would jump on it.  I think this coming year is going to be a mess with legislation....

SBR or pistol? Small distinction, but $200 extra in price, wait time, etc.

Generally, two ways most people go - dedicated block, like the Hahn, Colt SMG mags, 9mm upper. Other route is the Quarter Circle designed around Glock mags, which have been getting rave reviews and are really priced competitively for a dedicated lower. I would expect you'd still see slightly better reliability of the true double stack Colt SMG mags, as opposed to tapered Glock mags, but interchangeability, convenience, and all that isn't a trivial concern.

 

I've been pondering this, 9mm offers some benefits in the form of cheap ammo, but .45 is an awesome suppressed option. The Quarter Circle large frame lowers look ripe for some interesting builds.

 

You could also watch for sales post Christmas, RRA has some great uppers and all you need is to pick up some mags and the lower block.

 

Obviously Scorpion gets you a lot of the same functionality at a good price, same as Sig MPX, minus the good price. BT has some good offerings coming online, and if the PCC craze really takes off, I think you'll see a lot of new companies stepping in. I'd love to see what SW or Ruger could do in this space, as long as it was AR based. My feeling is if you don't have to have it now, there could be a whole bunch of great new options introduced at SHOT. This, suppressor capable, and budget precision are my bet for where development goes this next year.

You can also look at Lone Wolf for 9mm ARs  https://www.lonewolfdist.com/Products.aspx?CAT=2895.  They are branching out of the 9mm arena, so maybe they'll offer .45 some time in the future.  I bought a pistol lower a while ago; still  trying to figure out the upper I want with it (what barrel length I want? what "rail" I want? etc.) .  From the lower, the quality actually seems pretty good.  I've bought SOME Glock stick mags, I should probably buy more while the buying is good.  I always saw this as a good "truck gun",  but also a good  "AR" for my wife.  While I'll never see a 9mm as replacing a 5.56 or even  a .300,  I do see it as a viable option when you can't go full size.

AR Specs

- New Frontier Armory Spartan 9 Glock lower. I handled one of these and then a QC10 lower. I liked the fit and feel or the NFA lower over the QC10. The QC10 has the last round bolt hold open built into the lower (and I have heard it can be hit or miss). NFA has their bolt hold open built into their upper if that's your thing.

- QC10 7.5" barrel with HK Three lug adapter

- NFA's modular BCG, thinking I should of gone with their normal BCG so I can use a JP capture 9mm buffer and spring.

- Aero COP Carbine upper

- BCM/Magpul Furniture goodness

- MBUS Pro's

- Magpul padded sling w/QD points

I like the 9mm AR set up because it's the same Manual of Arms as what I have trained on. Also, the 9mm AR takes standard AR parts (except the proprietary lower parts which I ordered an extra set of). The 9mm lowers take a  standard FCG, pins, etc and I like the threaded bolt catch pin and rear detent pin is a plus.

I mocked up the build, no FCH/BCG in it PM me for more info.

A few pics of the barrel with device

Spacetaco posted:

Here is the one I am looking at.  This is a factory built SBR

The 9 AR. I am looking at.

 

Question folks, I was thinking of putting Fixed Irons on the AR Pistol since I need to send my aimpoint micro and see if they will fix it with m stupidity of striping a screw.  

 

What sight options for fixed sights would be good for this short of barrel if I don't keep the micros on there?  The plan is the micros on there now will go to my Beretta ARX-100 I bought as a deployment gift.  

Since this thread got resurrected: I have an SBR'd AR. I got rid of my 9 mm carbines years ago, but now IDPA has a Pistol Caliber Carbine class, so I can bring a "rifle" to those, and get some action shooting practice when that happens, so it seems worth getting one again. Instead of a new gun and paper, I'd like a mag block and short (10.5?) upper to simply clip onto my normal rifle. 

IS THERE a good mag block for 5.56 lowers? I am unclear on this when I research it, and don't know anyone with one now. 

Who makes the best uppers? Why doesn't BCM make a 9mm, dammit? 

shoobe01 posted:

Since this thread got resurrected: I have an SBR'd AR. I got rid of my 9 mm carbines years ago, but now IDPA has a Pistol Caliber Carbine class, so I can bring a "rifle" to those, and get some action shooting practice when that happens, so it seems worth getting one again. Instead of a new gun and paper, I'd like a mag block and short (10.5?) upper to simply clip onto my normal rifle. 

IS THERE a good mag block for 5.56 lowers? I am unclear on this when I research it, and don't know anyone with one now. 

Who makes the best uppers? Why doesn't BCM make a 9mm, dammit? 

I know this isn't a gaymer site but this is why I want a 9mm carbine too. The updated rules are no longer restricted to >10"  barrels so that opens up MP5s, Uzi, SBR Skorpion Evos and (locally very available) pistol-carbine conversions like Hera and Roni, locally the cost of those last two is prohibitive, they are like 1/3 the price of a 9mm AR.

 

Sourcing a Glock mag lower here looks impossible   so we are stuck with a locally made DM4 in 9mm or a Stag 9mm. The Stags use blocks and IIRC Colt SMG mags in a standard lower. 

The DM4 uses a block too, but getting any info on parts from them is rather hard. 

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Responding a month later as I sold the never-used M70B2, so re-invested the money into this, which just arrived:  

I don't strictly use IDPA for gaming, but as confirmation of my otherwise-trained skills, and as practice, as we have a lot of walls and doors, so it's a real good place to do cornering and so on. Monthly! We're usually indoors, so can turn off the lights, so trying to get them back into regular low-light, also. 

Our club is going to be a little weird on the PCC class (safety worries, mostly), so they won't be allowed every month, but a couple-three times a year. Still, worth having I think. And maybe they will start allowing it generally, and I can then get monthly close-quarters carbine practice in. 

It's a bit cheap, in that it has a shitty setscrew FSB...

and a forward-assist + shell deflector upper...

but it has all the parts I need in one box, and a ramped bolt. With a 4 pack of NIW mags (so now 6 total!) I am under $500 invested, which is a hell of a deal compared to the complete guns I was looking at. And we all know ARs. If I fall in love, I can change the receiver, get the gas block, replace the FSB, et al. 

Once zeroed and I confirm the FSB isn't canted, I'll run it as it is for a bit to be all amusingly old school. But sometime I need to get a gooseneck, a dot and light to make it more like my 5.56 carbines. 

Kayback posted:
shoobe01 posted:

 

...

...this is why I want a 9mm carbine too. The updated rules are no longer restricted to >10"  barrels...

When did this happen? Have a link? As none of our club seems to know this, and the IDPA rulebook online doesn't show under 10" being allowed.

 

 

P.S. mods, this not-unrelated thread of useful info is still off in Carbines and Rifles: https://www.lightfighter.net/t...40#47474438023815040 Should be, as the last post there says, moved.  

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I bought a Colt R6430 9mm carbine back in 1992. For $650. At that time some of the local departments were using Colt & Marlin & Ruger carbines as replacements for or in addition to shotguns.  From about 1998 on everybody went to "real" AR-15 pattern guns.

I use the Colt 9mm frequently as a practice gun. I can use it on indoor ranges that are restricted to pistol calibers only, I can shoot it on steel plates without specialty ammo, and the manual-of-arms is the same as all the other AR pattern guns I already own or that ride in my squad car.

And USPSA and IDPA both have PCC divisions now and I am classified in both. If you set up your AR 9mm carbine basically the same way you set up your "real" AR, then the 9mm works good as a sub-caliber trainer.

I bought a half dozen more Colt pattern mags from Palmetto State Armory a year ago last spring and they have worked really well.

There's a certain zen idealism to not being that successful at my business. I got caught up, had nothing really urgent to do this afternoon, so just blew off work and went to the range. 9 mm upper day!

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

Oh, this is somewhat shocking because I have the cheap plastic mag block, and even modified to be bottom load so it has no real retention, but friction and it works fine. 

Oh, it was sketchy retaining mags, so I switched to a "9mm" mag latch. Which I just switched to. Works fine for 5.56 also. Just different grind so it engages deeper, but there's an awful big lump on 5.56 mags so it should be fine. 

It's been a minute since I had my HK94 clone, or my Calico, so I was expecting quieter. Maybe it's the 10.5" barrel, but it's a bit stout. Well... I thought. Luckily I shot the 5.56 upper at the end of the day to re-set my brain IT IS MUCH LOUDER. But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

Wasn't zeroed, despite being used. I assume this is proof no one shoots: I never get used guns or uppers that are zeroed. Idiots. Anyway, despite looking twisted, it's not so far off I couldn't get it zeroed. 

 
My cheapass 115 practice ammo suuuucks. Every fifth round makes a weirdly different noise. I switched to the much nicer 124s I just got and they were good. But, not the gun. 
Ejects the /exact/ same place as the 5.56 upper does. Little 3 foot diameter pile of both at the end of the day. 
 
Questions:
  • Do I need to worry about buffer, spacer, anything if it seems to run fine? Lots of internet commandos spread info about them battering and stuff but is that true? 
  • Where do you zero 9mm carbines/SMGs? I did 25 yds as that's max range for at least the club range, where I will likely use it, so I can sortsa simulate "far away" and aim dead on, account for offset shorter 

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Also, mag carriers. I got rid of all my 9mm SMG sorts of stuff long ago, so had to buy something, and elected for a double 10-speed in belt config. Partly as it was suggested in some other carry thread recently. It's nice. 

Harder to insert the mags than a single stack, or 10-speed rifle pouches, but holds these very long sticks real well. 

I might even try them if I had to conceal under e.g. a suit jacket all day. They feel that stable and secure. 

What's everyone else using? 

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Just finished my AR9 pistol build,

 

Rainier arms upper receiver

Aero Precision 9" Mlok handguard

8.5" faxon barrel with KVP linear comp

Faxion 9mm BCG

spikes pistol buffer and springco red spring

Spikes 9mm Glock mag lower,

Upper and Lower small parts from my parts bin

SB Brace

 

 Haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, I was planning going to go to the local indoor Fudd range yesterday, but messed up my shoulder. 

AR9

"I'd be terrified of shooting my finger off."

Be very afraid. Circa 1995-6, the FBI Director got tough with all senior supervisors from HQ and made them requal with all Bureau weapons. A SSA I worked with, a senior FCI supervisor went to Quantico and shot. Handgun went well, on an HK MP5 he shot the end of his left index finger off. 

I imagine he hurt like hell, but the shock also did damage to his hand and arm, he had an external brace (lay term, I'm sure it has a fancy med term) with bolts going into the arm up the forearm.  So in addition to what I'm sure was an umcomplimentary nick-name in HQ, he was seriously injured.   Go figure. 

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shoobe01 posted:

It looks awesome. I'd be terrified of shooting my finger off. 

Thanks, I do kinda wish I went with a flat sided upper, but I'd picked up the rainier on sale a while ago. There's enough stuff at the front of the gun that you have a good idea where your hand is relative to the end of the tube and am not super worried about it eating fingers, That being said I do have a hand stop on order. 

My COLT factory 9mm is keeping the 16" barrel for now but it is pretty straightforward with Magpul furniture, Gunfighter charging hable and nib MRO I picked up for $300. Needs a light and maybe KNS FCG pins

Runs like a raped ape and I found a case of old school Federal Hydrashok 9mm +p and +p+ from when we carried MP5's cant wait to try those out with the 16" barrel

Maybe will SBR it at some point give my overall price point in its current configuration is under $1000 im happy with it.

 

shoobe01 posted:

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

...

But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

My biggest issue when I used to shoot a Colt SMG a bunch was not feeling that it was in lock-back or rather that it DID NOT go back into battery.  For whatever reason, the full cycle (or lack there of) of a .223/5.56 bolt was/is so much easier for me to distinctly feel.

Have you run it hard yet?  I’m curious if you’ve noticed the difference and missed a lock-back when running it under any type of stress.

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TheTick posted:
shoobe01 posted:

Worked flawlessly. Not a stoppage at all with any mag, locks back every time. Is really hard to insert loaded mags on a forward bolt, and really hard to run the bolt on a loaded mag. Huh.

...

But recoil is basically the same, so that's nice for training value. 

My biggest issue when I used to shoot a Colt SMG a bunch was not feeling that it was in lock-back or rather that it DID NOT go back into battery.  For whatever reason, the full cycle (or lack there of) of a .223/5.56 bolt was/is so much easier for me to distinctly feel.

Have you run it hard yet?  I’m curious if you’ve noticed the difference and missed a lock-back when running it under any type of stress.

I know exactly what you mean, I frequently can't tell where my 5.56 Tavor's bolt is because the recoil impulse feels so different from an AR.

We finally had a PCC day at the local IDPA club. Got to shoot my carbine, and... didn't notice the cycling differences so much. Felt a lot like shooting a suppressed 5.56 outside (it's an indoor range) so none of the horrible blast, but I didn't notice any weirdness in the action, etc. So, works great under "stress" as a carbine simulator. 

The big dumb RDS on the gooseneck (I have a fixed carry handle and FSB) worked as intended. Saw nothing but the dot, and the target. Worked great. 

I did fuck up two things during the COF that prove my point I need to make this part of my routine shooting; there's not as much opportunity for using my real carbine at close ranges, with barricades, etc. So, I reloaded before leaving cover, then went to fire and got nothing. Bolt had locked back, but I didn't notice and fell into handgun/cqb speed reloading, so didn't rotate the gun, etc. and check like I otherwise would. Fail! 

Also, ranges got deceptive, so I didn't hold over enough. Decent enough shots, but all a bit low because whoops. Also, fail: need to do it more. 

Academically knowing and getting the reps are two different things. These are perishable skills and I don't do it enough! 

Not sure I have seen a better example of it being all about the shooter, not the gear. Here's my IDPA scores from last month shooting the iron sighted UMP .45 that's not mine, and my RDS'd AR 9mm upper on the SBR lower I shoot all the time. 

#5 Steven Hoober... 5 point down,  36.95 clock time, 41.95 total time

#6 Steven Hoober...7 points down, 41.53 clock time, 48.53 total time

I am not even sure which is which! Okay, I'd guess the worse one is my gun due to the offset mentioned above. 

I put this AR together for use in IDPA/ USPSA PCC category last fall. I have a couple of other 9mm PCC, but they are SBRs and I wanted something that wasn't an SBR for competition. I was shocked by how soft shooting this AR was, compared to my MP5 clone and Sig MPX. I'd shot some 9mm AR's before this one and thought they had a weird recoil impulse. I went with a Colt style lower because that is what the local dealer had in stock and he cut me a good deal on it. 

 

9mm AR

(Sorry for that delayed edit, but I had to take a massive dump when I was trying to post this yesterday, and did not get a chance to comeback and fix my post)

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Okay, time to admit I like RDS, and the pistol carbine should be an emulation of my 5.56 guns instead of something amusingly retro. Flat top, and a 7" alpha rail.  

Since mine is pretty cheap, it only looks like a Colt at a distance, but runs like a top, I am gonna take it apart so I keep the bolt and barrel and so on. 

Questions: 

  • If I don't need a fixed front sight, I can just not put the FSB back, right? No gas system so it doesn't do anything but be a sight right? 
  • I am gonna do the gas diverter and half-sized dustcover. Since it will be random clutter, does anyone make a truly slick sided (no fwd assist, no brass deflector) upper with a pic rail? 
  • Do I need to time the barrel nut as though it has a gas tube passing through, or just tighten to the specified torque and not worry about where exactly it ends up? 
  • Anything else tricky to assemble a "subgun" upper I haven't though about? 

It’s been a while since you posted shoobie so you may have found your answers. 

1. You are good without a FSB, a number of PCC barrels don’t even have the option. 

2.  Nordic components and dpms have completely slick options but don’t have dust cover options either. On the quality side CMT is probably your answer if you can find one, on the cheaper side maybe look at the midway/AR stoner brand. They have billet options that are slick sided with dust cover, they also have a dedicated PCC upper which is what I built mine on.  

3. Timing may or may not matter depending on the barrel nut/rail interface. Depending on what model Troy rail I believe you will still have to time the nut.  

4. I didn’t run into anything specific running a dedicated new frontier/joe bobs lower and dedicated PCC upper but PCCs can be notoriously picky, there’s a guide somewhere on barrel length to buffer weight recommendation  but I can’t find it now. 

Nope, haven't found anything yet but to be clear: I was only going to change the receiver itself. So the barrel, bolt, everything stays the same and barring some oddity I cannot imagine, it should run just as well as it does now. Which is weirdly fine. Same mag latch and buffer for 5.56 suppressed/not, .300 suppressed/not, and 9 mm. It's a miracle. Don't jinx it!  

Good note on the float tube clamping to the nut. The rail probably times by the nut being properly timed, or something, so I'll do it like there's a gas tube. 

Took some of your advice, faked some, made at least one stupid choice:

Wrenched. The old gun was weird. Some accuracy issues may have been the gun, as the barrel nut was not much more than finger tight. And with no gas tube? Eeek. No serious problems getting it together. 

And now, finally, I can with minimal embarrassment or alibis, present a complete (AR-15 series) family photo:  

I guess I could have made it bulkier by including the AR-shaped training rifles (most of which also have the TD battlegrip, same sights...), but forgot. Anyway:

  • 9mm upper
  • .300 upper
  • 5.56 upper on the SBR lower (WML removed temporarily to fit MILES for next weekend)
  • 5.56 16" complete rifle, restricted megaforce use only

And finally now the 9mm is not just fun but has some more direct training value when I haul it out at IDPA, etc. Same lower,  

So, took it to the range. Which sucked. See, the weather gods do not want me to shoot. Weather here has been variable, but mostly rather pleasant. Yesterday I was out doing my little chores or watching the boy play in shorts and a t-shirt. Mid-50s, and sunny. 

But for several MONTHS now, its always, always, always in the 30°s, windy, often raining or sleeting or something. Today, no different. We get snow later. So I blew off my bolt gun and maybe in a few years the range will be nice enough I can figure out what's wrong with that, but I did pretty quickly zero the 9mm, blasted away for fun, and as a last thing I loaded up 10 rounds of the 124 Geco (I do only 124s generally, but often my ammo bag is mixed with whatever I bought). 

Laid down on the zeroing bags again. (Note, the magnifier is stolen from the 5.56 upper. It won't normally be on here). 

And in no small measure because you all were asking about 9mm accuracy, did a supported slowfire at 75 yds (because it has an overhead. I'll do 200 when it's nice sometime). 

4 moa dot, and my bad eyes, I bet the gun is better than this, and needs to be a bit tweaked on zero still, but I am happy. 

And the gun is handy, familiar. When I was briefly running and gunning just before this, did all head shots and never dropped one from about 60 down to 5 yards. 

Bolt hold open failed 100%. I guess something doesn't fit quite right, or snapped off my cheap plastic mag adapter. Have to look into that. 

Finished the most frantic work emails, now puttering again to avoid the rest: 

9 shot group is 3.25". With all 10 it's 5" but I am comfortable calling that a flier. 

 

The bolt hold open is not broken, just sticky. I basically forgot the magwell adapter is a machine itself and needs to be maintained. Mostly yes just a fixed block adapter, use my existing mag latch, but...

...there's a sliding bit for the bolt hold open. Which is now gummy. Got it to work half the time at home after a cleaning, but I think I need to take the time to unscrew the two halves, try not to loose any of the tiny pieces, vigorously clean, grease, and re-assemble. Lots of plastic, so that's risky I bet, but I see no other way.

Plastic and aluminum, so I think the ultrasonic is a no go, right?  

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Damn you all to hell!  Made me read through this entire thread again.  I don't need any more guns.  Really.  I've got enough to legitimately supply my kids, and in the event of a Boogaloo, my reliable neighbors.  Want does not equal need.  Moving on.

I have three 9mm SBR's.  Not particularly practical, but more nostalgic.  Semi-auto Sterling, Uzi and the aforementioned, MP-5 clone.   I have steered away from AR based 9mm guns for a couple of reasons.  Maybe expressing them will result in someone telling me that they aren't an issue.  And since I already have an SBR AR15 lower, there is always the attraction of a 9mm conversion, not a whole new gun.

Issues:
1.  Recoil.  Obviously, we're not talking hard recoil, but because they are blowback guns, the bolts are heavier (more reciprocating mass),  so the recoil more than a gun like the Sig MPX.  Which I have never shot.  So maybe I'm wrong.

2.  After lots of reading, they are apparently prone to breaking hammer pins.

Not really an issue, but considerations.  Magazines.  I know the Glock magazines are popular for the convenience, but that is a significant alteration in the lower receiver and the magazine release.  Plus it is a single feed vs. double feed.  The Colt magazines appear to be reliable, but can be pricier.  Uzi magazines will work with a new cut for the magazine latch.  However, they won't hold the bolt open when empty.  

As best I can tell, the Hahn magazine block that fits from top is the best.  

An AR conversion is simpler, and maybe, as SHOOBE01 has pointed out, can be done relatively inexpensively...especially since I already have an SBR lower.  I think from a purely functional standpoint, the Sig MPX gives you all of the operating commonality,  but at a substantial cost.  Ok, those are my ramblings.  May you be as tempted as I am.

I believe the hammer pin breakage is mismatching bolts to hammers. I forget the details, but confirmed mine was relieved properly to match my fire control. The default is often an M16 shaped bolt tail*, which work fine on M16 hammers, but do /something I forget/ regarding pushing at angles (?) when cocking the hammer, which causes the pin to get overloaded, and eventually it breaks. 

I also sorta think that a similar issue with 5.56 F/A bolts and S/A hammers might have caused much/all of the pin hole wallowing that resulted in all the anti-walk, anti-rotation stuff.  

 

* Remember, straight blowback so the 9mm bolt is sorta the 5.56 bolt-carrier. 

There was just a thread on School Of the American rifle FB group about the pins (for those on FB search SOTAR it’s got quality info and they try keep it professional) what was brought up is that the broken pins were caused by non ramped BCG and most have been fixed by this point. CMC also makes a drop in specific to the PCC guns and some people run sig MPX which help with the issue as well. Improperly set up buffers also can attribute to the problem. In my research there appears to be an ideal weight between the bolt/buffer combo to reduce wear and increase reliability, 18oz from memory but don’t quote me.  Some Carriers have removable weights and some don’t, ideally one would run one of the longer buffer weights which limit travel and adjust weight as needed. Some of the extended buffers come with an assortment of weights, otherwise weight the carrier then order the needed buffer. Standard buffers can be used but it’s advised to run some form of spacer to limit travel. I opted for the longer weight to maintain normal spring pressure as I wanted to run a standard carbine spring for the time being, I felt this gave me better tuning options in the long run as there’s no tuning the gas system.  Just to throw another option out there new frontier armory makes colt mag lowers, Glock mag lowers, and MP5 mag lowers. There’s a part of me that would like to run an mp5 mag lower with one of the PDW stocks from maxim and a fox trot mike forward charging upper to achieve and mp5/AR bastard child of a range toy.  

Someone mentioned S&W.  I was going to swing by their booth at SHOT anyway, but that's something I'll definitely look for.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Sig USA is the only large American company making a modern 9mm carbine and pistol in a balls to the wall platform.  Ruger is doing quite well with the PCC, but it is geared to the lower profile sportsman.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a braced Charger style version of the PCC, but not exactly the same thing.

Wrenched on mine again because [a member] was selling a Colt SMG upper, so I put that on because awesome. 

Took it out to shoot IDPA yesterday and I can tell from everything including scores I am finally totally happy with it. I went too fast on one hammer pair ("on purpose," trying to find where the edge was) so got a 3 instead of another zero, and was still the 4th best total score in the whole match. Stocked things are easier to shoot than pistols, so that's 3rd best in PCC, but on a day where hand injury meant I was happy to not miss the actual paper with handgun, that's notable.

I mean, we know rifles are easier to shoot, but seeing it like this was really interesting to me. 

 

The short gun coming out of the bag at IDPA made a half dozen people go "um, you can't shoot pistols in PCC." An SO knew that I did the paperwork, so answered for me, but shocking in followon conversations how many people  have a braced pistol, but simply won't do a Form 1 (or 4, etc). 

Likewise, serious brain disconnects. They have 16" PCCs as practice for their 16" 5.56s, so why would they want a short gun??? Because my 10.5" 9mm goes well as practice with my 12.5" 5.56. Get the paperwork, SBRs are awesome. 

 

Since mag blocks got brought up, I have been using... hell if I know. It came with the upper and I just used it. No marks and when I try to research things are really contradictory, but it looks like pretty much all of them. 

Except, it is plastic. And I was therefore sure it would be awful. I also refused to top-install. I am not pushing pins out to switch calibers; that defeats the purpose of adapters to me. So I looked, measured, pondered and... X-Acto sawed off the lips on top that make it top install. Shoved in the bottom, (press the mag release at the same time) and it goes in, stays there. 

The 9mm mags are a bit narrower, so I had to get a 9mm mag latch, but... I adjusted it to work with all my 5.56 mags AND the 9mm. No problem. If you look real close at any photos of my carbine and see it says "9" on the left side of the mag latch, that's why; when installed, wasn't sure if I'd have to adjust, change, etc. 

The mag block is slightly squishy plastic, so is stuck in the mag well. You have to deliberately pull it out. 2-3 times a mag has snagged being removed and the block is out a few mm. Well, since the ejector wraps around the top of feedlip/round, when you insert a new mag fully, it re-locks, no fuss. 

Somewhat to my surprise, it has been dead reliable. 100%. Even stuff I was assured would not work, like that the adapters are touchy about mag interference. Nope, you can monopod the gun and it fires. 

When I changed uppers, it wouldn't work. Too tight, then when I forced it in the bolt stop wouldn't work. So, eventually, took it apart. And found: lots of steel and very nicely machined, well finished, very hard aluminum. 

It has some adjustment, so cleaning and putting it together for the new upper worked, now is back to 100%. But also, seeing the inside made me happier. It's not cheap plastic, it's effective plastic. The parts that need to be hard metal, are. The parts that work better as slightly compliant plastic bits that can then keep themselves in the magwell, are. 

Love it, wish I could be sure what it is in order to recommend it. Took photos, but forgot to load them so do tell if anyone cares. 

 

In a preemptive strike before another stupid Initiative (I-1639) took effect in WA, I bought 2 new rifles. One is another BCM, still in the box. It's black, simply so I can easily tell it apart from my original. The other is a Wilson AR9G - the platform set up for Glock mags. Why? Well, the reviews I could find were less unfavorable than others, and I have a couple of Glock 9mm pistols and a modest selection of magazines.

The first range trip was exciting. I'd set it up as much like my BCM patrol rifle as possible - Aimpoint, 1000 lumen Pat-spec Surefire light, padded sling (I think BFG, but I'd have to look). Accurate within the constraints of my eyes, a major limitation as I get older and the collateral crap takes more effect (although my eye doc is really impressed at the lack of diabetic damage). The old eyes simply are not flexible at all; add that to the long existing blind as a bat level correction and the suck is real. FML. I'd stripped and lubed the platform, and it seemed good to go. I had a couple of stoppages (the nature of which I no longer recall, it's been a while), but it was a new gun. Who GAF? More interesting. I had some odd experiences with the trigger seeming not to reset from shot to shot. Hmm. So, my range is kinda top end (almost like a country club, thank you, lots of comfort shit) and they have at least one range officer on duty at a time. I had him come over and watch and see what he could see, and eventually he tried it. Ok, same shit. I determined to run all the loaded mags I'd brought (maybe 200 rounds) through it just to do some action break-in before I sent it back. That changed when I had an experience I'd never had - I thought it doubled, and I gave it a WTF. Stuck in a mag or two with 2-3 rounds loaded to do some more testing, and ... not again. Probably user error. I know the shooter, and he sucks.

Stuck in a mag with a more normal number of rounds, and the fucking thing went FULL AUTO. It does not have a happy switch. This was not good. It ended the shooting session right away. The range officer was actually impressed by my trigger control and muzzle discipline (good training in the academy followed up by many a class with Pat, I guess) and commented on it. I called Wilson, sent it back, got it back quickly and tested it No problems. Not with the trigger, not feeding issues, nothing. I even ran some of my limited supply of Black Hills loaded with the Barnes bullet (which is no longer available from any but Barnes, FML) and had no trouble.

Do I have a functioning tool? Yes. Will it do what I am likely to need? Yes. Is it a good use of money compared to the .357 lever gun I am doing? Probably not. It's kind of a like having a really good 1911 - for most mortals, myself included, a couple of Glocks with good sights and shitload of ammo is a better choice.

For first time in months, our IDPA club had a match. Outside instead of indoors and some other changes but we had one. I brought the carbine because I like it, etc and thankfully did as ones I pulled the handgun out remembered I have hardly shot it for months! So, my carbine time has paid off more. 

Anyway: 

Pull the trigger once and it doesn't go bang. Unusual. And nope, not locked back empty, not even failed to lock, there's a cartridge there. Just didn't fire. First stoppage I think ever in this gun and first non-induced stoppage in a carbine for years and years. 

A friend was somewhat to the right, saw what happened, and picked up the round I ejected at mag/stoppage change. After the string is over, tells me: 

It fired out of battery. Dink on the cartridge halfway between the edge of the rim and edge of the primer. 

This is a thing? The SMG bolt has no cam pin so... no way to prevent the firing pin from going forward when OOB? 

Anything this points to, to check on for being broken or mis-installed, etc or is it just a thing that happens, maybe dirty? 

@Community Member posted:

Disappointingly expensive, but that demilled guns place has this: 

https://everygunpart.com/nfa-k...olt-9mm-smg-nfa.html

Claims to be "Colt 9MM SMG La France Specialties Improved Parts Kit" which... is enticing. 

I'm not quite sure what is "improved".  LaFrance was famous for his MG conversions, but the only things that stick out are the odd bracket the FSB and all the select fire parts except the auto-sear.  Does look fun though.

I'm convinced that when my brain gives me good advice, there's another part of my brain that takes it as a challenge to do the exact opposite.

IMG_2067IMG_2068

99% complete.  Earlier this year, I bought 16" 9mm rifle that uses HK magazines since I already had HK magazines.  Seemed like a good idea at the time and the price was right.  It works well for the most part.  Then I saw a pic of Springfield Armory's Saint Pistol.  And I really liked the look of that short barrel with the BCM polymer handguard.  And as you can see above, I had a GG&G folding front sight gas block sitting in my parts box.  I contemplated getting a 10.5" barrel for my .300 BO upper as the handguard for the 8.5" barrel is really too short.  I don't have long arms, but even my fingers were in danger of reaching too far forward.  No joy in Mudville as I couldn't find a 10.5" barrel with the right barrel diameter and the step for the handguard retainer.  But I did run across a 9mm upper that met that requirement.  The photos above represent the almost complete project.  I am waiting for a vendor to have more 9mm specific (Colt magazine) in stock.  My 9mm rifle bolt and buffer are in the .300 pistol lower pictured.  While I wait on the 9mm lower, I have three Mean Enterprises Endomags on the way from Brownells.  If you don't know what those are, they replace the guts of a Pmag and turn it into a 9mm magazine that only require the 9mm upper, no blocks in the receiver, etc.  The ejector is built into the magazine.  That will enable me to run this upper from the .300 pistol lower as shown, or my SBR.  The 9mm lower is $169, 00, which is cheaper than a 9mm conversion block for a standard lower receiver.  I already had another brace in my parts box/bin/locker, and a lower parts kit, so when the receiver arrives, 30 minutes will see it completed.  I have to say it feels really good in the hands, and hopefully I'll try it at the range next weekend.  Since our daytime temps are regularly 107 - 115, and I can shoot at my range at all hours, I'll probably head out at 6am and give it a go.

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IDPA day, did most of it before I had to run off and deal with increasingly eternally-ill mom. First two exchanges re the carbine that I enjoyed:

  • "When you put a stock on like that, is it still a pistol?" 
  • "No."

 

  • "It's almost like using a rifle is cheating." 
  • "And that's the whole point."

 

When I first set myself back up for 9mm carbine (I had a 94 clone, and before that a CALICO, in the 90s), I did it because it lets me shoot a "rifle" at IDPA, and I prefer stocked guns, shoot them more on my own so now an excuse. Sure, some extra trigger time, and the randomness of the COFs I always thought offered some training value. Good excuse for the spend.  

But I have been surprised how much value I am getting from it. I even have a SIRT bolt and airsoft so can do really short range whenever I want, as well as often incorporating some into range time, but... my own setups are different I guess so not effective enough. I need more classes, probably but lacking just bringing the 9mm as my second gun to every single IDPA club match — and practicing for that when I can — I am now getting really good at estimating range and doing proper mechanical offset. Like today:

one COF was 18 targets, one shot on each only, seated, various ranges (but all pistol range, like 8-25) and so wide an array you swing the gun over like a 120° arc. I didn't just get zero down (that's all shots inside the center circle, like "all As" for the USPSA types), but except for one was hitting the little "-0" in the middle of the circle. I'm not that good, so a bit of shooting that really shows improvement I like.

Gonna keep doing this. Confidence building to really know you can hit stuff from zero on out if needed. 

 

And now I know they exist, I think I am gonna order a pack of EndoMags to get the 9mm acting that much more like 5.56 as well for manipulation now. Too bad no chest rigs in IDPA days

@Community Member posted:

IDPA day, did most of it before I had to run off and deal with increasingly eternally-ill mom. First two exchanges re the carbine that I enjoyed:

  • "When you put a stock on like that, is it still a pistol?" 
  • "No."

 

  • "It's almost like using a rifle is cheating." 
  • "And that's the whole point."

 

When I first set myself back up for 9mm carbine (I had a 94 clone, and before that a CALICO, in the 90s), I did it because it lets me shoot a "rifle" at IDPA, and I prefer stocked guns, shoot them more on my own so now an excuse. Sure, some extra trigger time, and the randomness of the COFs I always thought offered some training value. Good excuse for the spend.  

But I have been surprised how much value I am getting from it. I even have a SIRT bolt and airsoft so can do really short range whenever I want, as well as often incorporating some into range time, but... my own setups are different I guess so not effective enough. I need more classes, probably but lacking just bringing the 9mm as my second gun to every single IDPA club match — and practicing for that when I can — I am now getting really good at estimating range and doing proper mechanical offset. Like today:

one COF was 18 targets, one shot on each only, seated, various ranges (but all pistol range, like 8-25) and so wide an array you swing the gun over like a 120° arc. I didn't just get zero down (that's all shots inside the center circle, like "all As" for the USPSA types), but except for one was hitting the little "-0" in the middle of the circle. I'm not that good, so a bit of shooting that really shows improvement I like.

Gonna keep doing this. Confidence building to really know you can hit stuff from zero on out if needed. 

 

And now I know they exist, I think I am gonna order a pack of EndoMags to get the 9mm acting that much more like 5.56 as well for manipulation now. Too bad no chest rigs in IDPA days

Fedex is scheduled to deliver the Endomags on Wednesday.  Then we'll see how they well they work.  Keep in mind, the ejector is built into the mag, so unlike the normal manual of arms, you have to leave the magazine inserted to eject a round from the chamber.  No mag, it stays stuck on the bolt.  Which can give you a nasty ND when you thought you'd cleared the.  Kind of like a magician with a bad attitude.  Check the chamber, empty.  But there's the round stuck on the bolt face, so when you drop the bolt and press the trigger....

In the immortal words of Hannibal Smith, I love it when a plan comes together.  I've got a neighbor who wanted to go to the range and work on her skills before taking her CCW class.  So it was good timing to help her, and then do my own shooting.  114 deg today, so off to the indoor range.  My Endomags showed up a couple of days ago so a new 9mm PCC and brand new mags.  First shots.  With the ammo situation being what it is, I only shot 2 mags, 50rds total.  No malfunctions.  Indoor range, so it was 15 yards.  Everything in about a 1" circle with a red dot, and iron sights, neither of which needed any adjustment!!!  I may not get the Colt magazines and receiver. 

2nd and 3rd good day.  I built one of the 80% Polymer GST-9 frames and had very poor functioning with the slide and compensator I had planned for it.  Took the comp off as that was probably the issue.  Sure enough, ran great without the comp. 

My G34 with the new Storm Lake barrel wouldn't run at first.  All in all, probably 125 rds to get it broken in.  One malfunction early on in 4 mags the time and the rest were great.  Damn fine time at the range.  And I really like my 9mm PCC with brace. 

For those who are considering building one, I figured I would post what I spent to build this one, and the cost of items that I already had.  I could have done it cheaper, but it wasn't that much to build it the way I wanted.  I'm rounding up the numbers for easy math and I'm not including the shipping or tax.  Obviously, if you source your parts from one dealer, you'll pay less in shipping.  And depending on your state and where you're buying, taxes will vary.  Not including taxes & shipping, I did this for just under $500.  That doesn't include the cost of parts I already had.

Upper receiver & 10.5" barrel combo     MAS Defense          $185
      *  I went with this combo because I wanted to use the BCM handguards and the GG&G gas block/folding front sight.  I wanted
          the longer handguard and barrel for the balance and a comfortable length on the handguard.  If you want a shorter barrel
          and a free float tube, you can do it for even less.  Any standard AR15 upper will work (unless you are using MP5 mags).
BCM Carbine length polymer handguards      Brownells          $2
Delta Ring combo          Amazon (CMMG )          $16
GG&G gas block and folding FS.  They don't make this any longer, but I had it in the parts box from a previous build.  They are
        all steel and heavier than some like.  Cost on those were about $150, but like I said, it came out of my parts box.
9mm Case/Gas deflector & ejection port cover      Optics Planet          $18
     * This isn't a necessary item, but I wanted it.  Per my research, you get a lot of gas exiting the ejection port (blowback design)
         and the plastic piece does deflect the ejected case, but it also helps with gas.  Might be even more of an issue if you are
        suppressed.
Rear Sight   I went through my bag of sights and I had a Troy folding rear sight.  It works well with the GG&G folding front
       so I used it.  However, the Brownells cost is about $111
Bolt     Brownells                                                                                                                                          $120 
   *  The Brownells branded bolt appears to be a re-branded Faxon.  I opted for it because it uses an AR15 extractor that is larger
        than what you normally use.  I could have skipped it and just used the one from my 9mm rifle, so if you do something like
       that, you can amortize costs across more than one gun.
Magazines   Brownells   Mean Ent. Endomag inserts for Pmags, 3 pack          $80
   *  This was originally a stop gap because the dedicated 9mm lower I wanted (Colt mags) was not going to be available for a
       couple of months.  I had read one bad review.  Others all said that they worked great.  There was some concern about long
       term longevity, but so far none of the reviewers had experienced issues.  If you don't count the cost of a Pmag, and I didn't
      (because I had them and they can be converted back), unit cost is a little less than a Colt mag.  Because they use 5.56 mag body,
      you don't need to purchase new mag pouches.  I consider that a plus over the 33rd Glock, or 32 rd Colt mags.  Caveat, they are
      stiff to load.  And since the ejector is built into the mag insert, you need to have an empty mag inserted to eject a round from
      the chamber.
9mm Buffer and recoil spring     Brownells          $56
   *  Again, this was something I didn't need to buy and could have reused from the 9mm rifle.  But I didn't want to switch the
       rifle's bolt and buffer.

Pistol lower receiver
   *  I had already built a pistol lower to use with a .300 BO build, so no repeat cost.  Average cost for a receiver and parts kit is
      about $150.
SBA-3 Brace
   *  I had it, so I didn't buy another.  $125.  I have an SBR and braced pistol lower, so I can equip either with a 5.56mm, .300 BO or 9mm upper.  That gives me flexibility when traveling. 

In summary, I spent $499 plus tax and shipping to build this gun, using some parts I already had.  If I had wanted to do it cheaper with the same basic build, for $323.  I'm about 90% sure I'm not going to get another dedicated 9mm lower.  Without the GG&G gasblock/FS combo and parts to use the BCM handguard, an inexpensive freefloat rail would reduce the build costs by about $100 (except I already had the block!).  One thing you should also consider if you are building your upper is that the 9mm case deflector prevents you from using most receiver blocks when tightening the barrel nut.  And you can't use the rod through the receiver that engages the locking lugs in the barrel extension, since there are no lugs.  So I carefully attached the upper to a lower and used a block in the magwell to hold it in the vise.  I'm sure I didn't get it to the exact torque specs, and the nut wasn't where it needed to be if it needed a gas tube, but since it doesn't, no harm no foul.

AR9-1AR9-2

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Man did the no gas tube hole mess with me! Not just my brain, but my handguard must index to the nut or it doesn't line up to the receiver right, so I had to do lots of pencil lines on the receiver and find a gas tube sized centering pin to use. Had to do it a few times before I got it right, also. Lot of anti-seize on my hands that day. 

I also am re-using a receiver (SBR 5.56, 300, 9) and it did take one thing to make it universal: mag release. With the block, it needed more stroke to make it hang on to the actual mags, and the craptastic lower completion set one I had ran out of adjustment so I bought I-forget-which better quality mag release, then tightened it down till it worked in the Colt mags 100% then found it also isn't a problem with any 5.56 or 300 mags I have either. I marked it (paint pen "9" on there) to remind myself but it hasn't needed adjustment so that's good. 

My receiver vise is cheap as hell, but I guess small enough it doesn't interfere with the gas deflector, so that was good. I wouldn't have wanted to torque my barrel as I did without it. 

Endomags. 

Got my three pack, and three PMAGs just for them. Installation was initially a snap, but the 9mm feed lips/feedramp bits didn't want to get over the top of the 5.56 feed lips right, took some work to get them to. 

My gun does drag a bit, but mostly inside (between the feed lips, not outside) so apparently per the endomag manual, that's okay and either it'll wear in or I'll file a tidge off sometime. 

The thing my gun does where the adapter and Colt mags are night-impossible to insert bolt forward is a gun problem, not as I expected an adapter problem. Endomags do the same, so that's good to know. Annoying, likely unfixable, but now I know. 

One mag just runs. Cool. The other two caused problems, but mostly so far at load time. One is just a drag issue and I have determined generally that I better not hit the bolt release, but give the bolt a head start, pull the charging handle back instead. I probably need to go ahead and start lightly oiling the top of the mags as well. 

Clear-chamber-then-remove-mag is not too hard to remember. But... 

Since I had plenty of feed stoppages getting these worked out, stoppage drills all go to hell with no ejector on the gun. Locking the bolt, you can knock the cartridge off with a finger, but that's odd. And if you don't do that, then you are just asking for double feeds etc. 

So... we'll see how reliably they run over more time, and if good-enough then how much the niceness of just-mags (and it is nice) outweighs the odd manual of arms changes for what I use it for mostly. 

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I didn't keep them at 10 rd, I trimmed the spacer to the 30 rd mark.  That said, they were stiff to load and I only loaded to 25 this time.  When I first inserted them in the magazine body (Gen2 like yours), a couple of them didn't snap over the feed lips at first.  Pushed and nudged, and they popped into place.  All three look the same after assembling them, but I'll admit, I've only shot two of them.  Headed to the range Sunday morning, but I won't be shooting a lot.  Ammo shortage and all that.

It sounds like your bolt might be the issue.  I don't claim a lot of expertise, but some bolt pics might help.

I am sure it's my bolt, probably just do not care enough to try to file on metal or whatever. It's dead reliable with the Colt mags, so if these don't work or I just hate them, I'll... probably keep them anyway as just more / different ones. 

I guess I need to read instructions more. Think I got it backwards, thought they needed positive action to become 10 rounders, not the other way around. Will take apart sometime, poke at all of it. 

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