Okay, time to admit I like RDS, and the pistol carbine should be an emulation of my 5.56 guns instead of something amusingly retro. Flat top, and a 7" alpha rail.  

Since mine is pretty cheap, it only looks like a Colt at a distance, but runs like a top, I am gonna take it apart so I keep the bolt and barrel and so on. 

Questions: 

  • If I don't need a fixed front sight, I can just not put the FSB back, right? No gas system so it doesn't do anything but be a sight right? 
  • I am gonna do the gas diverter and half-sized dustcover. Since it will be random clutter, does anyone make a truly slick sided (no fwd assist, no brass deflector) upper with a pic rail? 
  • Do I need to time the barrel nut as though it has a gas tube passing through, or just tighten to the specified torque and not worry about where exactly it ends up? 
  • Anything else tricky to assemble a "subgun" upper I haven't though about? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

It’s been a while since you posted shoobie so you may have found your answers. 

1. You are good without a FSB, a number of PCC barrels don’t even have the option. 

2.  Nordic components and dpms have completely slick options but don’t have dust cover options either. On the quality side CMT is probably your answer if you can find one, on the cheaper side maybe look at the midway/AR stoner brand. They have billet options that are slick sided with dust cover, they also have a dedicated PCC upper which is what I built mine on.  

3. Timing may or may not matter depending on the barrel nut/rail interface. Depending on what model Troy rail I believe you will still have to time the nut.  

4. I didn’t run into anything specific running a dedicated new frontier/joe bobs lower and dedicated PCC upper but PCCs can be notoriously picky, there’s a guide somewhere on barrel length to buffer weight recommendation  but I can’t find it now. 

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Nope, haven't found anything yet but to be clear: I was only going to change the receiver itself. So the barrel, bolt, everything stays the same and barring some oddity I cannot imagine, it should run just as well as it does now. Which is weirdly fine. Same mag latch and buffer for 5.56 suppressed/not, .300 suppressed/not, and 9 mm. It's a miracle. Don't jinx it!  

Good note on the float tube clamping to the nut. The rail probably times by the nut being properly timed, or something, so I'll do it like there's a gas tube. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Take a look at the Cross machine    UPUR-4, should be what you need. 

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Took some of your advice, faked some, made at least one stupid choice:

Wrenched. The old gun was weird. Some accuracy issues may have been the gun, as the barrel nut was not much more than finger tight. And with no gas tube? Eeek. No serious problems getting it together. 

And now, finally, I can with minimal embarrassment or alibis, present a complete (AR-15 series) family photo:  

I guess I could have made it bulkier by including the AR-shaped training rifles (most of which also have the TD battlegrip, same sights...), but forgot. Anyway:

  • 9mm upper
  • .300 upper
  • 5.56 upper on the SBR lower (WML removed temporarily to fit MILES for next weekend)
  • 5.56 16" complete rifle, restricted megaforce use only

And finally now the 9mm is not just fun but has some more direct training value when I haul it out at IDPA, etc. Same lower,  

So, took it to the range. Which sucked. See, the weather gods do not want me to shoot. Weather here has been variable, but mostly rather pleasant. Yesterday I was out doing my little chores or watching the boy play in shorts and a t-shirt. Mid-50s, and sunny. 

But for several MONTHS now, its always, always, always in the 30°s, windy, often raining or sleeting or something. Today, no different. We get snow later. So I blew off my bolt gun and maybe in a few years the range will be nice enough I can figure out what's wrong with that, but I did pretty quickly zero the 9mm, blasted away for fun, and as a last thing I loaded up 10 rounds of the 124 Geco (I do only 124s generally, but often my ammo bag is mixed with whatever I bought). 

Laid down on the zeroing bags again. (Note, the magnifier is stolen from the 5.56 upper. It won't normally be on here). 

And in no small measure because you all were asking about 9mm accuracy, did a supported slowfire at 75 yds (because it has an overhead. I'll do 200 when it's nice sometime). 

4 moa dot, and my bad eyes, I bet the gun is better than this, and needs to be a bit tweaked on zero still, but I am happy. 

And the gun is handy, familiar. When I was briefly running and gunning just before this, did all head shots and never dropped one from about 60 down to 5 yards. 

Bolt hold open failed 100%. I guess something doesn't fit quite right, or snapped off my cheap plastic mag adapter. Have to look into that. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Finished the most frantic work emails, now puttering again to avoid the rest: 

9 shot group is 3.25". With all 10 it's 5" but I am comfortable calling that a flier. 

 

The bolt hold open is not broken, just sticky. I basically forgot the magwell adapter is a machine itself and needs to be maintained. Mostly yes just a fixed block adapter, use my existing mag latch, but...

...there's a sliding bit for the bolt hold open. Which is now gummy. Got it to work half the time at home after a cleaning, but I think I need to take the time to unscrew the two halves, try not to loose any of the tiny pieces, vigorously clean, grease, and re-assemble. Lots of plastic, so that's risky I bet, but I see no other way.

Plastic and aluminum, so I think the ultrasonic is a no go, right?  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Does anyone still sell flattop "9mm" uppers with the deleted F/A and shell deflector, but with provision for dust cover? RRA used to, but now they have a custom 3/4 length ejection port which cool and would be fine, except:

I want a slick side upper for building 5.56 on... Aero Precision makes an upper with the F/A deleted, but still features the shell deflector.

Not quite an answer, but I couldn't find one. Hence just sucked it up, went with the shell deflector (no FA) version of the Aero one. It's not... bad. I don't mind the Colt style plastic gas deflector in the ejector port, but do wish I could get the fenced, no-deflector style. 

Were they EVER made or was that only a carry handle style? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

AR stoner (midway house brand)  has a billet upper without FA and deflector but still has a dust cover. 

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Damn you all to hell!  Made me read through this entire thread again.  I don't need any more guns.  Really.  I've got enough to legitimately supply my kids, and in the event of a Boogaloo, my reliable neighbors.  Want does not equal need.  Moving on.

I have three 9mm SBR's.  Not particularly practical, but more nostalgic.  Semi-auto Sterling, Uzi and the aforementioned, MP-5 clone.   I have steered away from AR based 9mm guns for a couple of reasons.  Maybe expressing them will result in someone telling me that they aren't an issue.  And since I already have an SBR AR15 lower, there is always the attraction of a 9mm conversion, not a whole new gun.

Issues:
1.  Recoil.  Obviously, we're not talking hard recoil, but because they are blowback guns, the bolts are heavier (more reciprocating mass),  so the recoil more than a gun like the Sig MPX.  Which I have never shot.  So maybe I'm wrong.

2.  After lots of reading, they are apparently prone to breaking hammer pins.

Not really an issue, but considerations.  Magazines.  I know the Glock magazines are popular for the convenience, but that is a significant alteration in the lower receiver and the magazine release.  Plus it is a single feed vs. double feed.  The Colt magazines appear to be reliable, but can be pricier.  Uzi magazines will work with a new cut for the magazine latch.  However, they won't hold the bolt open when empty.  

As best I can tell, the Hahn magazine block that fits from top is the best.  

An AR conversion is simpler, and maybe, as SHOOBE01 has pointed out, can be done relatively inexpensively...especially since I already have an SBR lower.  I think from a purely functional standpoint, the Sig MPX gives you all of the operating commonality,  but at a substantial cost.  Ok, those are my ramblings.  May you be as tempted as I am.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I believe the hammer pin breakage is mismatching bolts to hammers. I forget the details, but confirmed mine was relieved properly to match my fire control. The default is often an M16 shaped bolt tail*, which work fine on M16 hammers, but do /something I forget/ regarding pushing at angles (?) when cocking the hammer, which causes the pin to get overloaded, and eventually it breaks. 

I also sorta think that a similar issue with 5.56 F/A bolts and S/A hammers might have caused much/all of the pin hole wallowing that resulted in all the anti-walk, anti-rotation stuff.  

 

* Remember, straight blowback so the 9mm bolt is sorta the 5.56 bolt-carrier. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

There was just a thread on School Of the American rifle FB group about the pins (for those on FB search SOTAR it’s got quality info and they try keep it professional) what was brought up is that the broken pins were caused by non ramped BCG and most have been fixed by this point. CMC also makes a drop in specific to the PCC guns and some people run sig MPX which help with the issue as well. Improperly set up buffers also can attribute to the problem. In my research there appears to be an ideal weight between the bolt/buffer combo to reduce wear and increase reliability, 18oz from memory but don’t quote me.  Some Carriers have removable weights and some don’t, ideally one would run one of the longer buffer weights which limit travel and adjust weight as needed. Some of the extended buffers come with an assortment of weights, otherwise weight the carrier then order the needed buffer. Standard buffers can be used but it’s advised to run some form of spacer to limit travel. I opted for the longer weight to maintain normal spring pressure as I wanted to run a standard carbine spring for the time being, I felt this gave me better tuning options in the long run as there’s no tuning the gas system.  Just to throw another option out there new frontier armory makes colt mag lowers, Glock mag lowers, and MP5 mag lowers. There’s a part of me that would like to run an mp5 mag lower with one of the PDW stocks from maxim and a fox trot mike forward charging upper to achieve and mp5/AR bastard child of a range toy.  

-------------------------------------

Originally Posted by DocGKR:

       
This is why LE in some areas would be better served with belt fed weapons and flame throwers...

       

Joined: 5.23.2009
Location: WA/ Canadian border

Someone mentioned S&W.  I was going to swing by their booth at SHOT anyway, but that's something I'll definitely look for.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Sig USA is the only large American company making a modern 9mm carbine and pistol in a balls to the wall platform.  Ruger is doing quite well with the PCC, but it is geared to the lower profile sportsman.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a braced Charger style version of the PCC, but not exactly the same thing.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

In my experience for conversions, buy the Hahn top loading mag well adapter, dedicated 9mm hammer

Hammer pin breakage , i recommend KnS non rotating hammer/trigger pins

magazines - COLT or Metalform all the way 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

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