This is often a misunderstood topic so I thought I should share a bit of my anatomy knowledge.

Purpose

Body armor is meant to keep you in the fight. That is, armor is meant to protect your vital organs which, if hit, would immediately take you down and prevent you from putting rounds on target. The possibility of saving your life is a secondary benefit of body armor.

What to protect

With this purpose in mind we must understand those structures we need to protect which we can realistically protect while still maintaining a high degree of mobility. Our primary concern is the heart and the large blood vessels which sprout from the top of the heart: the superior vena cava, the arch of the aorta and the pulmonary trunk. I will refer to these vessels simple as “related vessels” from here on. A hit to the heart and its immediately related vessels will very quickly take you out of the fight and kill you within a minute or two.

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

Protecting the vertebral column goes without saying -we wish to protect as much of this as possible without sacrificing mobility for obvious reasons.

It is important to note that a hit to the lungs may prove to eventually be lethal but is not nearly as lethal as quickly as a hit to the heart and its immediately related blood vessels. The liver and kidneys, while highly vascular, are also not immediately incapacitating.

Front/chest plate

The top of your plate should be at the level of your suprasternal notch aka jugular notch. If you follow your sternum towards your head, the soft spot you reach at the top of it is the suprasternal notch. Your plate should ride at least level with the top of your sternum while standing.

The importance of positioning the plate at the top of the SN Notch is that you have a bundle of large blood vessels which rest on top of your heart and lie behind the manubrium (the uppermost portion of your sternum), most notably the aortic arch. The aortic arch receives blood from your left ventricle and will have the highest velocity of all the blood in you systemic circulatory system. Get hit here and you will be done. So, make sure your plate is riding higher, rather than lower because protecting your aortic arch is much more important than protecting your guts.

Also, as you can clearly see with the image below, a smaller plate allows for more comfort and mobility to the shooter will not necessarily mean you will leave immediately incapacitating areas unprotected -large plates will only cover a little more of your peripheral lung tissue and guts.

Reference image (anterior view)

Red is your heart and related blood vessels
Dark Grey/Yellow is a properly positioned plate
The sternum and clavicle are white with black outline

Image result for panzerr body armor


Positioning of rear/back plate

Find the most prominent bony eminence at the base of your neck. This is your vertebral eminence. Count down two bony spinouses (or measure down about an inch) and that should be above the level of the superior aspect of your sternum. Positioning at least this high will ensure your entire heart and its immediately related blood vessels are protected.

Reference image (posterior view)

The vertebral eminence is marked in the diagram below in blue.

Image result for panzerr body armor

Side plates and shoulder plates

Side plates are intended to protect the highly vascular elements of your abdomen. Side plates were introduced to prevent troops from bleeding out in the chopper on the way to the field hospital. Side plates are not necessarily intended to protect the heart, but if you wear them high up into your armpits you can protect some of the lower portion of your heart.

Protecting your heart from a shot to side is accomplished by shoulder plates, such as the ones manufactured by Crye Precision.

To sum it up

Here are general guidelines to follow at a bare minimum. As always, the more protection you can have without sacrificing mobility the better. This is just the bare bones.

Front plate: should be even with top of the sternum while standing, extend at least 1.5 inches past the bottom of your sternum and should cover the entirety of your nipples

Rear plate: should lie no lower than an inch below your vertebral prominence

Side plates: the higher they ride the better

Original Post
I'm gonna steal this, if that's ok with you. I'm constantly fighting with other NCOs about properly fitting body armor, and the fact that it doesn't have to go so damn low, but it DOES need to ride high...

_______________________________________________________________________

These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. -Matthew 15:8 "What can I say? I have a piece of paper in a frame on my wall that says I paid $20,000 to be able to use that word." - Haji

Well done!

This is EXTREMELY important information that needs to be continually reinforced.

When possible, I prefer a longer plate rather than a wider one, in order to try and protect from the sternal notch to the bottom of the liver.
Great diagram, really drives home what you are actually attempting to cover. I'm going to forward this and your text to the cops in my city since we issue plate carriers.

Thanks!

_____________________________________________________________

 “If you're not going to fight intelligently, you better be strong, because you're gonna bleed”Bennie Cooley

"No matter how bad it gets, something's gotta be funny about it." - Sinister

"You can love the job, but the job won't love you back" - Pat Rogers

 

Joined: 09/20/07       Location: Seattle (Area), WA

 

quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:

This is EXTREMELY important information that needs to be continually reinforced.

When possible, I prefer a longer plate rather than a wider one, in order to try and protect from the sternal notch to the bottom of the liver.


Damn right

A longer than wider plate would for sure be more beneficial. The liver is HIGHLY vascular and your respiratory diaphragm follows the bottom of you rib cage.

Here is a link to the full size image:
http://sixty-six.org/x_drive/thorax_anterior.jpg
quote:
Originally posted by Bryson:
Is there something similar to this for the rear? I recently started getting hassled for having a vest that was too short on the backside.


Find the most prominent bony eminence at the base of your neck. This is your vertebral eminence. Count down two bony spinouses and that should be above the level of the superior aspect of your sternum. I'll see what I can do about a diagram.
quote:
Originally posted by The Traveler:
Can you do the same with side plate placement? Great info so far.


I don't think I have the proper diagram, but one really isn't needed.

If you look at my first diagram, the anterior view, follow the top of the aortic arch across and you will see it is roughly in line with the greater tubercle of the humerus (the bony prominence at the top of your arm).

The apex of the heart is near the xiphosternal junction, so it is roughly at the bottom edge of your sternum. Find that on your body, then follow it over to your side.

You will quickly see that a side plate will only partially protect your heart & aortic arch and that is only if you wear it up in your armpit!!
It's a nasty truth about side plates, especially the way about 99% of guys wear them. If your side plates are hanging down around your waist, you may as well just drop the weight.

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please; 
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!       -Kipling

Below is a picture that demonstrates the impossible positioning of a side plate in order to protect your heart and its immediate blood vessels.

Keep in mind that side plates were originally intended to prevent wounds that would result in eventual death from bleeding out due to an abdominal would.

Optimal positioning of a side plate would be as high as is comfortable without impeding movement. that way you will hopefully cover the lower portion of your heart, your respiratory diaphragm, part of your liver and kidneys.

quote:
Originally posted by P-Hustle:
It's a nasty truth about side plates, especially the way about 99% of guys wear them. If your side plates are hanging down around your waist, you may as well just drop the weight.


No shit. It's even worse when they are flopping around in the breeze and not vertical, thus not presenting the most surface area to the enemy.
Current side plate positioning is mainly to protect the liver/kidney/descending aorta & vena cava. If you want to protect your heart and aortic arch from a side shot, you need to have hard armor on the upper arm/deltoid area as depicted in the photo above.
quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
Current side plate positioning is mainly to protect the liver/kidney/descending aorta & vena cava. If you want to protect your heart and aortic arch from a side shot, you need to have hard armor on the upper arm/deltoid area as depicted in the photo above.


Yep. The liver and kidneys are HIGHLY vascular. Guys were getting shot through the guts and bleeding out on the chopper on the way to the field hospital.
quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
Current side plate positioning is mainly to protect the liver/kidney/descending aorta & vena cava. If you want to protect your heart and aortic arch from a side shot, you need to have hard armor on the upper arm/deltoid area as depicted in the photo above.


Does anyone have any experience with, or thoughts on, the Crye Shoulder Plate as a solution for this issue?

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"Praise be to the LORD my Rock,

who trains my hands for war,

my fingers for battle."

Psalm 144, Verse 1 (New International Version)

Jeezz Jason..can you make them bigger? Big Grin

Panzerr, good info right there.Thanks

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

I'm a visual learner, so these diagrams are great! Thanks for throwing them up here.

I'll copy them and pass them along to some of my coworkers that also have plate carriers in their patrol vehicles.

 

 

 

Joined: 10/16/10  Location: WA

quote:
The aortic arch receives blood from your left ventricle and will have the highest velocity of all the blood in you systemic circulatory system. Get hit here and you will be done.


Well done and thank you.
I have seen multiple people hit in this area, the last with a 7.62x39, think of high pressure paint sprayer.
Really great stuff. And it helps make the case for smaller (lighter), yet properly positioned plates.

In eastern Paktika, we dropped the sideplates. The issue PC is lousy, but the placement of the sideplates is just worthless (and painful). And the extra weight dropped is not missed.

Tankersteve

In Yorktown, VA.          Joined August 2008

Gov't Civilian, after retiring from active duty in 2015. 

 

'One's own open sore never smells.'  - Haitian proverb

Your major concern is getting the plate high enough to cover the above mentioned aortic arch. With that said I would make sure that happens and the bottom of the plate will be where it happens to be. However, I would want the bottom of the plate to at least go an inch or so past the bottom of the sternum to protect the respiratory diaphragm. Two inches past the sternum would be better.
Well made, well explained. Thank you for Your time.

If it's OK with you, I'd love to use these to demonstrate the issue to our guys. Pictures I made really sucked

 "Anatomy and Physiology is EVERYTHING. It is the difference between being a trained monkey and a medic"

-RESQDOC-

Thank you very much;

So riding properly high is more important than riding low; 1-2" is good below the sternum, if below that upsize.

Like many others, could I please use these for work purposes? They might be used in an RFI/RFP process for carriers.
I have an MTV training manual that also emphasizes numerous times that plates must be worn at high as possible:

quote:
NOTE: Front ESAPI plate position should be NO MORE THAN 1 inch below the
Sternal Notch (OR EVEN WITH THE COLLARBONE, FAILURE TO ENSURE
PROPER PLACEMENT MAY RESULT IN DEATH). *****THIS POINT NEEDS
TO BE EMPHASISED MANY TIMES THROUGH THE TRAINING SESSION.
ADDITIONALLY, NEED TO STRESS THAT SMALL UNIT LEADERS ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR ENSURING PROPER FIT/PLACEMENT OF
PLATES.**********


quote:
Ensure MTV has no gap at side of Marine
Ensure ESAPI plates are worn as high as possible on the neckline.
Note: Failure to wear ESAPI plates as high as possible may result in death.


quote:
The correct positioning should be
no more than one inch (1”) below the sternal notch (OR EVEN WITH THE
COLLARBONE, FAILURE TO ENSURE PROPER PLACEMENT MAY
RESULT IN DEATH). The rear SAPI plate should be level with the front plate when
viewed from the side.
NOTE: The plate positioning is critical. If the plates are not positioned correctly, serious
injury could result.
NOTE: The shoulder straps have a built in stop mechanism that will not allow the
user to adjust the ESAPI that will achieve more than a one inch gap below the
sternal notch. This stop also maintains the overlap in ballistic material required for
the shoulder region.


quote:
NOTE: NEED TO INSTRUCT PROPER PLACEMENT OF SIDESAPIs

PROPER PLACEMENT IS AS HIGH IN THE ARMPIT (AXILLARY) REGION
AS THE MARINE CAN COMFORTABLY WEAR. ADDITIONALLY, SIDE ESAPI
NEEDS TO BE CENTERED IN THE SIDE OF THE TORSO. AGAIN,
NEED TO STRESS THAT IMPROPER PLACEMENT MAY RESULT IN
DEATH.
NOTE: Remember, the soft ballistic insert must remain behind the hard armor
plate in order to be effective.

_________________________ I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

quote:
Originally posted by panzerr:
Below is a picture that demonstrates the impossible positioning of a side plate in order to protect your heart and its immediate blood vessels.

Keep in mind that side plates were originally intended to prevent wounds that would result in eventual death from bleeding out due to an abdominal would.

Optimal positioning of a side plate would be as high as is comfortable without impeding movement. that way you will hopefully cover the lower portion of your heart, your respiratory diaphragm, part of your liver and kidneys.



Any chance of a pic with the carrier on showing how high the side plate is riding on you?

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I've got my DBT hiked up as far as possible with medium plates. It still sits 1" low, but when in a shooting position it covers the jugular notch. Sucks for guys like me that don't have a neck, lol. I have been arguing this to people for years!

Is that a small or medium size plate in the illustrations?

Show me on the doll where the gun store touched your wallet.

quote:
suprasternal notch


Gents,

The IOTV Gen II User Guide covers this subject. The OP is correct that the front plate should be positioned at the suprasternal notch and the rear plate should be at the same height as the front plate. The side plates should be directly under the armpits and not riding on the hips.
I distro'd this to a bunch of co-workers who sent it out to their respective units. I was VERY well received and made the relevant points crystal clear.

I had dudes coming up to me later and telling me that they rethought how they were even wearing their concealable soft armor and raised it up to cover more of the critical area.

This is the kind of info that saves lives.

OUTSTANDING CONTRIBUTION, THANKS!

_____________________________________________________________

 “If you're not going to fight intelligently, you better be strong, because you're gonna bleed”Bennie Cooley

"No matter how bad it gets, something's gotta be funny about it." - Sinister

"You can love the job, but the job won't love you back" - Pat Rogers

 

Joined: 09/20/07       Location: Seattle (Area), WA

 

Great post, Another vital tool to add to my toolbox. Something to keep in mind exspecially when out in the field.

"In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity"

 

In memory of those who lived the good life and fought the good fight.

Good info!

What range are you using in MN?

Mikey

““To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.”” Carlos Castaneda

Nice range!

Mikey

““To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.”” Carlos Castaneda

Thanks, Panzer. Go Packers! Big Grin

------------------------------------------------------

* Eric

 

We must be able to apply the appropriate degree of force and discrimination, demonstrating a complete businesslike attention to detail; and if necessary, we must be able to kill with ruthless efficiency. -- MSG Paul Howe

 

Joined: 9/27/05              Location:  WI

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

Originally Posted by richard@assessedthreat.co.za:

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

 

Christ man, its tough to breath with your guts in your chest!

 

This is what is known as a traumatic hialtal hernia -where the stomach is pushed up through the opening in the diaphragm through which travels the esophagus and blood supply to the lower part of the body.  It's likely you were already living with a hiatal hernia and didn't realize it, only to have it traumatically exacerbated.  Symptoms of a hiatal hernia are similar to GERD and diagnosis is sketchy.  Your case is, of course, is taken to the extreme. It is very possible you may have some ongoing issues even after apparent reduction of the hernia.  

Originally Posted by panzerr:
Originally Posted by richard@assessedthreat.co.za:

Second in importance to the heart is the respiratory diaphragm, the muscle which, when contracting, allows you to decrease air pressure within your lungs and thus take in air. Destroy the diaphragm and you destroy one’s ability to breath.

 

Dear Panzerr,

thanks for the info, I had an experance which worked out a bit different to the above, don't know why. I was doing a unarmed combat course and managed to rupcher my diaphragm after a few blows. I carried on for 45 minutes (adrenalin, to dumb to know?) being assessed, a couple of days later when on my second trip to the hostipal they worked out what was wrong I was told 90% of my stomach was in my chest cavity. The point is i had a load of chest pain, but my breathing was not bad considering.  

 

Christ man, its tough to breath with your guts in your chest!

 

This is what is known as a traumatic hialtal hernia -where the stomach is pushed up through the opening in the diaphragm through which travels the esophagus and blood supply to the lower part of the body.  It's likely you were already living with a hiatal hernia and didn't realize it, only to have it traumatically exacerbated.  Symptoms of a hiatal hernia are similar to GERD and diagnosis is sketchy.  Your case is, of course, is taken to the extreme. It is very possible you may have some ongoing issues even after apparent reduction of the hernia.  

Ya Ive had better experiences in my life! It felt like I was having a frigging heart attack, I was operated on, they went in through my stomic and stitched the diaphragm back, It took a long time for the stomic area to feel good again, but its all good to go now.

Here is series of pictures that demonstrate the coverage differences of Large SAPI, Large BALCS, Large Velocity Systems VS13A for the Mayflower LPAAC and XL SAPI.

All pictures have the actual armor panels and plates flush at the top center. The extra material that you see sticking out is the environmental cover. I did not include plate backers in the pictures, as they are identical in size and shape to the corresponding plate size. You can clearly see how much extra coverage you get when jumping up from just a plate and backer to a full wrap system. Both systems have their place. Plate carriers offer superior thermal management and mobility at the expense of reduced frag and lIIA coverage. Full wrap gives you protection on the sides against LIIIA threats and frag, but insulates and depending on carrier design may limit ultimate mobility. Your choice between these two should reflect a look at your threat matrix, and your mindset going into the fight.

 

The Large VS13A appears to offer similar coverage to a Large BALCS in terms of square inches. Notice the location of the coverage. The VS13A wing covers high under the armpit. The BALCS has similar wing area but positions it slightly lower on the body. There are valid reasons for both. The LG BALCS will back a XL plate but the LG VS13A is not quite long enough to support a XL plate.

 

First Picture, L to R: XL First Spear Strandhogg SAPI cut w/ XL SAPI and VS plate backers, Large Eagle Maritime CIRAS with LG soft BALCS and XL SAPI, Large Mayflower LPAAC with LG VS13A armor panels, and LG Velocity Systems PBZ Light weight SAPI shape plate.

Armor 023

  

 LG VS13A (gray) over a LG BALCS (blue)Armor 027

 

 

Large PBZ (SAPI equivalent in Multicam) over LG BALCS (blue) over LG VS13A (gray)

Armor 030

 LG PBZ  (Multicam SAPI equivalent) over XL SAPI (black) over LG BALCS (blue) over LG VS13A (gray)

Armor 031

 LG PBZ  (Multicam SAPI equivalent) over XL SAPI (black) over LG VS13A (gray) over LG BALCS (blue)Armor 032

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Thanks for this important info. Hadn't donned my PC in a while and just decided to check its fit. My rear plate was sitting way too low. Now it's properly adjusted.

____________________"Requiring the police to do and be everything for everyone at any time doesn’t make sense. If you expect cops to be able to stop bleeding; start hearts; change tires; calm the irrational; comfort the heartbroken; control schizophrenics when doctors can’t; straighten out unruly students when five teachers can’t; make life-and-death decisions in split seconds; learn city, state and federal case laws and be able to understand, remember and execute the intricacies of over 2,000 general orders in the blink of an eye while engaged in bizarrely chaotic and dangerous situations in the middle of the night …We may, as a society, be nuts." - Jim Glennon

  This is a picture of the Large VS PBZ (MultiCam SAPI equivalent shape and size) over a L/XL MBAV backer panel (black) over a Large VS13A panel. Again, the top center of the armor is flushed up. Notice that the L PBZ just covers the L/XL MBAV top to bottom. An XL SAPI would actually be longer than the MBAV backer and will NOT be adequately supported by soft armor in the rear.

DSC02616

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since this is a thread that includes those that know and it is regarding fit of Hard Armor, I have the following question:

 

If wearing an LE MOLLE vest - SBA with the option of wearing pouches on the vest to get stuff off the belt - directly in the spot where a plate would go when putting on a plate carrier - does the plate loose effectiveness if there are pouches and contents between the soft armor and plate? does it matter if the plate is designed as an ICW or SA plate? 

 

TIA

Boltgun

Originally Posted by LobsterClaw0351:

Wasn't there a thread on here about proper wear of a "drop leg" holster? I thought I remembered seeing one, figured this would be the place to ask.... 

Nah, you took a wrong turn and should have headed for the "secondary weapons forum".
But the proper wear of a drop leg holster seems to be: don't

 

I guess you'r thinking about this thread: https://www.lightfighter.net/to...h-a-drop-leg-holster

 

There is a ton of videos on Youtube to.

 

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The only good thing about being a ground pounder in the airforce is that the higher ups don't know what I'm supposed to do, nor what I'm allowed to do. - a reflection made by me

Originally Posted by Boltgun:

since this is a thread that includes those that know and it is regarding fit of Hard Armor, I have the following question:

 

If wearing an LE MOLLE vest - SBA with the option of wearing pouches on the vest to get stuff off the belt - directly in the spot where a plate would go when putting on a plate carrier - does the plate loose effectiveness if there are pouches and contents between the soft armor and plate? does it matter if the plate is designed as an ICW or SA plate? 

 

TIA

Boltgun

Depending on the thickness of the pouches and contents, your plate fit is going to be pretty lousy. The best case is a carrier that supports both SBA and plate inside the carrier. In your scenario, the plate will work, but fit may be compromised, meaning vital coverage may not be optimal depending on how the pouches make the plate tilt. I would recommend running the front and back of your SBA carrier as slick as possible to get the plates in the auxiliary carrier to sit right.

 

Going up against a rifle, any plate- worn anyway- is going to be better than SBA alone.

Longeye, thanks for the reply...I understand fit will suck....will plate performance be an issue if not up against the SBA? I understand the aspect of angles opening up "chinks" in the armor context...nothing else though?

 

Boltgun

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

Having never donned a rifle plate, I can't speak to comfort/fitment issues with that level, but medically/ballistically, it would be a goal.

One day the Radical Jihadists are going to run into the wrong kind of Christian.

Race Bannon posted:

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

And that is one of the major reasons that I hate the generic 10x12 plate. It's coverage is not optimal unless you are a very small person. Even warrior sized people need and use bigger plates. SAPI Medium is the smallest size I recommend, and SAPI Large or XL is better for many people.

If "O" really wanted to do something positive for cops he would ban production of 10x12 plates, and propose a national standard shape and group of sizes for LE hard armor that mirrored the USGI one. The same could be done for SBA as well. Using the BALCS or Mayflower size grid would be optimal.

Race Bannon posted:

I'd also point out how long the front plate should be to cover all the vitals.  Ideally the plate would extend to the level of the belly button - the abdominal aorta divides into a left and right side, diverting from the midline at that level.

Having never donned a rifle plate, I can't speak to comfort/fitment issues with that level, but medically/ballistically, it would be a goal.

Indeed it would be ideal for maximal protection, as would a full level 4 face shield.  However a balance must be struck between protection and mobility and having a rigid rifle plate extend from the jugular notch to the bottom of the belly button will be problematic.  A plate of that size would limit forward flexion and if it were to extend from the jugular notch to the bottom of the belly button the plate would most likely be jammed into the shooter's throat on forward flexion.  

Wear your armor high, cover the heart and great vessels of the heart while still being able to move and shoot.  Worry about the rest later.

Would an abdominal soft armor carrier (i.e. nutsack flap) with a 6x6 MSAP plate cover the necessary vitals around the belly button while still offering flexibility?

"We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful."

It took me forever to find this article again, I should have bookmarked it years ago...  At any rate, great information!  I recently posted a video, for all the knuckle draggers that can't read...  I would have credited you in the video, but couldn't find it till after I shot it.  But I linked back to it in the text.

Thanks for sharing the information.  Too bad it hasn't reached the wider world, there is a lot of poorly set up armor out there...

https://kitbadger.com/plate-placement-for-body-armor/

Getting shot while wearing body armor sucks a lot less than getting shot without it.  It's still going to leave a mark.

Image may contain: one or more people and closeup

Officer shares photo of bruise caused by bullet that struck his bulletproof vest | WPMT FOX43

Sacramento Police Officer Tim Martin was shot on September 7, 2017.  This picture is from September 17, 2017.  Suspect assumed ambient temperature shortly afterward.

From his post on the book o' face:

"Some people think that body armor is like a magic shield that bullets ricochet from without harming the wearer. This is what it looks like 9 days after being shot with a .380 auto. The round hit me about an inch and a half from the bottom of my vest. At first I didn't know if it had hit my body armor. The proper term for it is bullet resistant, not bullet proof."

http://www.kcra*com/article/2-...d-pd-says-2/12193590

Wear your body armor.  Wear it right.  Don't change the way you wear it.  Change the way you approach the mission.

 

 

Jun 1, 2018 - Edit:  Thanks to Lightscout for noticing the images had expired.

And new ones:

 NFI

NFI

Lance Sergeant Collins shows the bruise left by the impact of the bullet. He was left with severe bruising

In this photo Lance Sergeant Collins, British Army, shows the bruise left by the impact of a snipers bullet in June of 2009.  He was left with severe bruising.  Had this shot hit only 2 inches to the left, the resulting blunt force trauma could have broken his back.  As it was, the 7.62 round hit the lower edge of his hard plate.  2 millimeters lower and he would have been a casualty. 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...n.html#ixzz5HFEwoiFY

 

 

 

....

 

 

 

 

....

Sincerely,

 

Trajan Aurelius

 

 

When violence is the local language, be fluent.

 

"He who is not angry, whereas he has cause to be, sins.  For unreasonable patience is the hotbed of many vices, it fosters negligence, and incites not only the wicked but even the good to do wrong."  Saint Thomas Aquinas, "Summa Theologiae/Second Part of the Second Part/Question 158", c. 1274

Trajan Aurelius posted:

Getting shot while wearing body armor sucks a lot less than getting shot without it.  It's still going to leave a mark.

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Wear your body armor.  Wear it right.  Don't change the way you wear it.  Change the way you approach the mission.

Thanks for posting, sharing this. 

Necropost but hopefully still relevant.  A lot of the images from the original post aren't showing up any more.  Does someone have a copy of the armor placement diagram that Panzerr posted to begin with?  Looks like my unit may be going from IOTV's to PC's in the near future and I want to make sure we are properly educated.

"These are the rules. Everybody fights, nobody quits. If you don't do your job I'll kill you myself."

 

Joined: 04/01/2004     Location:  Twin Cities, MN

LightScout posted:

Necropost but hopefully still relevant.  A lot of the images from the original post aren't showing up any more.  Does someone have a copy of the armor placement diagram that Panzerr posted to begin with?  Looks like my unit may be going from IOTV's to PC's in the near future and I want to make sure we are properly educated.

Have you PM’d Panzerr? He’s still around. He logged in as recently as about 2 weeks ago. 

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Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

I believe I have those images you are looking for. I will dig out the hard drive they should be on today if you still need them and get them to you.

 

MAC 

"If you hit a wall in life don't take that easy road around it. Push through and learn from that experience." My son

 

Joined: 4/23/06                                     Location: Western SD

OK, there's one thing that bothers me about rear plate placement.

From what I understand the front plate position is compromise between cover and mobility restriction. There are vital structures above jugular notch, especially when we consider different impact angles, but having plates higher would compromise mobility/ weapon manipulation.

But the rear plates, even when riding higher, shouldn't restrict mobility in any significant way (extension on top ot T spine and lower C spine). And higher placement,while potentionally exposing kidney and other structures below plates, would provide better coverage to subclavian a., carotid a. and potentionally aortic arch from rear, important nerve structures,...

Is there any reason to not have rear plate as high as possible? I got into argument with body armor company, and only answer I got was "the plate should be on same level for best coverage". Can anyone confirm this?

(even though this armor rides below T1 as advised, it can be seen on lots of pictures when using armor with "same height" construction)

Also some carriers (especially Crye) have design which actually puts rear plate higher different heights of cummerbund attachement points on AVS, JPC,....  

Or is my logic flawed?

 "Anatomy and Physiology is EVERYTHING. It is the difference between being a trained monkey and a medic"

-RESQDOC-

You're right, but few manufacturers build their rigs to do this.  Diamondback (now long gone) was the first.  Looks like Velocity still does.  Note the straps (and cummerbund flap) connect higher on the front plate and lower on the rear:

Image result for diamondback tactical plate carrierModular SCARAB™ LT / SCARAB™ LE Configurations

I think Jason started doing it with Tyr gear once he opened his own place. 

Some customers demand symmetry over plate placement.   More folks tend to wear the rear plates lower since they fight in places that are so stinking hot.

In a perfect world armor carrier manufacturers would have easy to purchase options for allowing different sized plates (and shapes) for front and rear, e.g., large rear and medium front.

The larger rear plate would allow for more coverage where less mobility is required while also allowing for some extra weight to offset the front load carriage, which typically has mags and other items pulling it down.

I know SKD tried to offer that with their Brigadine carrier but the plate specific fit made it a little bit too niche.

I think the Crye AVS plate bags allow for that type of customization but all the commercial dealers still sell it as a same size plate bag set for front and rear.

If this has been covered elsewhere, please direct me there (and I will update or delete this) but: How do you don and doff a PC correctly? 

Asking because wearing it high enough means your head sorta barely fits through the top so you go slow, bang your head, knock your glasses off, etc. My experience (reinforced with some asking around) is that people avoid that, and after a bit re-adjust the PC to wear lower for easier donning/doffing. Not lazy or stupid, but all in the name of being more effective, so they can react to situations faster, despite the end result being less optimal armor coverage. 

Is there a trick we're all missing? Or at least a mod/upgrade like shoulder straps you can leave loose but which can be tightened up once on? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

On another note is anyone wearing one of these "slick" plate carriers under and uniform shirt? As opposed to stuffing rifle plates in a concealed soft armor carrier? Primarily for conus patrol work. Something i have been thinking about lately. 

Bigd17 posted:

On another note is anyone wearing one of these "slick" plate carriers under and uniform shirt? As opposed to stuffing rifle plates in a concealed soft armor carrier? Primarily for conus patrol work. Something i have been thinking about lately. 

I have done this with my JPC. It works well.

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