For those that can stop by the Aimpoint booth at SHOT show to see the new Glock, Sig mounts for the Micro T-1.

S/F

"Your moral obligation to your Marines is to train them accomplish the mission, fight, win, survive, and come home alive. All other activities are secondary."

perhaps if the sight is modified to turn off while pointing down, or when seated in the holster to save the battery. A pressure switch would be ideal but getting a reliable connection between the grip and the sight on top of the slide could be tricky, unless you did a sight mount that started on the right side at the top of the frame and came up and over, but that would be bulky. The way I see it mounting the sight with usable irons and fitting it to a holster is really no issue, but making the sight reliable on batteries and preventing snags is the tricky part.

"There's no moral order. There is only this, Can my violence conquer your violence?"

quote:
Originally posted by Headhunter22:
perhaps if the sight is modified to turn off while pointing down, or when seated in the holster to save the battery.


What if you are covering DOWN? The low-light cut off already causes minor problems with some of these. Adding more complexity to the system increases the chances that it isn't going to be there when you need it.

I would want to see this with a brighter dot in extreme low light. Not much brighter, just a little, and the ability to change batteries without removing the sight. I could settle for much shorter battery life if the batteries were easily replaced.

This could be the next big "thing" in handguns, but I still think it has a little farther to go before it is street ready for us folks on the pointy end of the spear. I can get a little more liberal with long gun sights because a long gun takes at least a little time to prepare for action and thought. The handgun could well come up (and likely will if you analyze the kind of OISs in your area) at total random from the holster, at a dead run in bad lighting conditions at two in the morning or in a dog pile with someone kicking you in the head. Your sights have to be as reliable as possible.

I love the T1 but think it is a little big for handguns. It is definitely down the right path. I want T1 reliability and life in a Docter/FF/J-point package. I just don't see it quite yet. Close, but not quite. Maybe next year...
Seems to be a resurgence of this in the last few months, I've been seeing more and more. The cats over at Suarez's school(ya we know they're silly) have been using a Trijicon RMR it seems along with suppressor irons.

Seems like a pretty viable package, but I haven't seen an RMR up front to know if I like it.

Should be an interesting trend in the next couple years.

Anybody played with this recently?
I tried a H1/G35 combo (using the aimpoint mount) a while back and it didn't work for me. Mostly I think it was a case of using the wrong optic. A co-worker took me over to visit some Trijicon guys and one guy had his set up using one of their optics recessed into the slide and that appears to be the best way to run a red dot sight on a handgun. As you can see from the pic below, the H1 sits high on the slide and you can only dial the dot down so far if you're trying to zero it with the dot hovering as close to the top of the front sight as possible, which was my preference.

Like you've said though, increasingly this combo is picking up steam on duty guns. I'm debating hacking up an extra G17 I have to give the recessed slide mount option a try, but have not had the time to focus on it this year. Here's my G35 with the T-1 mounted before I returned it to normal....



---------- I pray that my son, when he is 60, and your son, when he is 60...will live in a world from which the great ugliness that has scarred our century has passed. Enjoying their freedoms, they will be grateful that, at the threatened nightfall, the blood of their fathers ran strong. ----------

I saw a similar setup on a local pd's gun with the doctor optic, and had the same idea, so I tried it thinking along the same premise of red dots on rifles, speed, faster target acquisition, so far I'm impressed getting use to tracking the dot under recoil, and should have gotten the smaller dot but being able to hit a steel silhouette at 125 meters with a pistol is very confidence building in this particular setup, I like it ,work was done by one source tactical, great job and lightfighter is a great site
Glock 34 with trjicon RMR, dual illumination 8 moa dot

A write up by Gabe S on such a set up with pics:

http://www.warriortalknews.com...ombat-handguns-.html

Also see:

http://www.onesourcetactical.c...jiconrmrsight-2.aspx

I guess they have that for MnP, or will.

- Will

 

General Performance/Fitness/Health Advice for all: www.BrinkZone.com

 

“Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

quote:
Originally posted by Will Brink:
A write up by Gabe S on such a set up with pics:

http://www.warriortalknews.com...ombat-handguns-.html

Also see:

http://www.onesourcetactical.c...jiconrmrsight-2.aspx

I guess they have that for MnP, or will.


Ya I think that article is where I saw the RMR pretty much like above.

It makes sense. Be interesting to see where it goes.
No rear sight?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

It looks like the most popular layout is going to be suppressor height sights, and the mini-RDS just in front of the rear sight.

Bowie Concepts has a version of these in the M&P45, XD, and the factory FNP45's.
And even now the 1911 (with their Leupold DeltaPoint setups) They've got an RDS-Sight-Ejection port layout - I'd love to see how one of those would work with an RMR and YoBo MEU style rear sight.

If I can figure out a holster layout, I'll transition to all Trijicon RMR's in this layout.
---------------------------- "There is no greater calling that to defend the lives of fellow Marines" -LtCol McClane S/F
I took the leap on a Bowie Slide set up and a Trijicon RMR. soon after it arrived I realized I was fooling myself at my skill level. Great looking set up, but mines on the auction block as we speak. I need a spare M&P, ammo and training more than a shiny thing. Here's some pics:





I can see lots of pros to this, just not at my skill level.
For hand guns I'm a nob, but educated enough to realize it. I'm attempting to up my skills with limited time and while certainly this is a highly recommended set up by well educated end users, I just need to dail it back and in grain the basics before I get all sexy with my fool self.
quote:
Originally posted by Apprentice:
quote:
I can see lots of pros to this, just not at my skill level.


From the standpoint of accuracy or speed of acquisition of the dot or some other?

Thx


quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:
For hand guns I'm a nob, but educated enough to realize it. I'm attempting to up my skills with limited time and while certainly this is a highly recommended set up by well educated end users, I just need to dail it back and in grain the basics before I get all sexy with my fool self.


I wrote before in another thread that learning to shoot the gun with a red dot is really re-inventing the wheel and it will take a proficient shooter plenty of time and practice. The initial jump to the RDS made me slower. I definitely suggest having mastered traditional sights before trying.

"Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you."

quote:
Originally posted by Gentle Ben:
Any issues with these MRDs fogging up when going quickly from, for example, a warm car/house to cold outdoors?


Negative, but the lens does get plenty of random shit in it despite it riding in a RCS holster day to day, I think it's bodysweat and oil.

"Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you."

Over the weekend I had the chance to put a few mags through LAV's Bowie-ized G17 equipped with the mini-RDS and iron sights.

According to LAV he's taken the weapon in that configuration through 4 classes, and he's starting to see real benefits to the use of the dot. An example of the benefits would be this target he produced using the Glock in the "Humbler", AKA the 600 aggregate:



That's a 597, one of the best performances Mr. Vickers says he has ever turned in on the drill. He also seemed to like the benefits of the red dot when engaging moving targets, when shooting on the move, and when shooting in low light.

The optic is the LED based Trijicon (no washout issues) with an 8 MOA dot:



Note that the weapon currently has a tritium front sight which is decidedly sub-optimal and will be changed out. In low light it's simply too easy to confuse the tritium sight for the dot in the sight. I experienced this myself when running LAV's pistol during the low light section.

LAV's stated opinion is that there is most definitely a learning curve to using a RDS on a handgun.

My impressions from my brief time on LAV's gun:

1. The 8 MOA dot is probably about the right size. During the break before the night shoot on day 2 several students tried out the pistol and a couple managed to knock down 6" steel plates on the plate rack from 100 yards away. On the walkback drills LAV was ringing steel out to about 135 yards where we quit the drill so as not to end up shooting from the parking lot behind the range. With those kind of results it would be difficult to argue that the 8 MOA dot is a significant detriment to precision accuracy.

2. The dot, much like a laser, magnifies the movement in your hands as you try to aim at a target. This plays serious tricks on your mind. I found myself having trouble with twitch-fire (seeing a lot of movement in the sights and subconsciously trying to snap off a quick shot when the dot happens to be at the right spot resulting in jerking the trigger and anticipating recoil) which admittedly could have partially been because of the stiffer than usual trigger on LAV's Glock. It's a stock gun, but it felt worlds different than my Glocks.

3. I had trouble finding the dot and keeping track of it from shot to shot. Overall I found it much more difficult to use than iron sights and exponentially more difficult to use than a laser.

...but, again, there is a learning curve with these sights and I'm on the very steep part of the curve. If someone expects to pick one up, mount it on a pistol and then find that their shooting has instantly improved by 30%, I'd say they are in for disappointment. Individual results may vary, but I'd say that it will take at least a couple of thousand rounds downrange before someone really starts to "get" the mini-RDS.
So I ran a Jpoint with a rear sight adapter during a RskTkr class a few months ago as more of a proof of concept test than anything.

After a bit of a learning curve as touched on in previous posts I thought it was about good to go for the class.

The one issue I had was that even with the elevation bottomed out I still could not get the optic on, not an issue up close but it was killing me at even moderate distances.

I sent the Jpoint home with one of the RskTkr staff and he milled a Caspian slide for me. Due to a week long class and a honey do list taller than I am (I know, that doesn't really mean much) I haven't had a chance to really run this yet.

I am already thinking that I might need to swap out the front sight for something a bit taller but time will tell.

__________________________ Those kids need some fucking mentors. The beating stops when the bleeding stops. How fucking hard is that?-DZ Folk don't like the Bible until its time wipe every bad guy from the face of the Earth, and suddenly, its The Playbook. -Duke

quote:
I wrote before in another thread that learning to shoot the gun with a red dot is really re-inventing the wheel and it will take a proficient shooter plenty of time and practice. The initial jump to the RDS made me slower. I definitely suggest having mastered traditional sights before trying.


Yes. Back when the Burris FastFire first came out I tried it on a G19 and even with oh like 30 years of experience, I had the devils own time picking up the dot in dynamic drills esp with movement and lost all confidence in the concept. I appreciate the new innovations and follow the new approaches closely.
I am moving now to put one on my M&P. I had the chance to 'fam-fire' one at a handgun class this summer. Here are the things I took away from my limited experience.
-Good night firing capability.
-A lot more accurate at further distances. (for me)
-Easier to manipulate with one handed drills.
-My eye picked up the dot quickly, I think this directly translated from shooting a lot of rifles topped with aimpoints.

At first it was hard for me to justify the expense, but after looking at all the tactical advantages I could gain from this type of setup I decided to go for it.
As noted in the other thread on RDS for hanguns, we've been experimenting with these since early this year.

It does take a lot of dry firing/drawing and several thousand live rounds to become proficient. I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing.

If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with irons; however, given the vision changes following my basilar skull fracture last year, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons...
What about for someone who is not a shooter, and has no intention on spending the time to get good with irons. My wife has shot my Glocks, knows how to manipulate them and aim them, but has no interested in training with them. She just is not into shooting or training, and never will. When I'm on duty, she has a Glock 19 by her side of the bed. I'm wondering if a RDS would be easier for her to use in a stressful situation? I'm thinking she will be behind the bed with a cell phone and the Glock 19, maybe a red dot would be easier for her?

" Never miss the opportunity to shut the f$%& up." Colonel Hopewell

I've had that same question...whether or not the red dot would provide the same ease of use advantage on the handgun that it does on the carbine.

Admittedly my experience at this point is very limited...but I'd say no right now. The mini RDS on a handgun has a fairly significant learning curve. It doesn't appear to be a shortcut to spectacular results. It doesn't make up for a lack of training or skill on the part of the end user.
quote:
Originally posted by STS45:
What about for someone who is not a shooter, and has no intention on spending the time to get good with irons. My wife has shot my Glocks, knows how to manipulate them and aim them, but has no interested in training with them. She just is not into shooting or training, and never will. When I'm on duty, she has a Glock 19 by her side of the bed. I'm wondering if a RDS would be easier for her to use in a stressful situation? I'm thinking she will be behind the bed with a cell phone and the Glock 19, maybe a red dot would be easier for her?


quote:
Originally posted by John_Wayne777:
I've had that same question...whether or not the red dot would provide the same ease of use advantage on the handgun that it does on the carbine.

Admittedly my experience at this point is very limited...but I'd say no right now. The mini RDS on a handgun has a fairly significant learning curve. It doesn't appear to be a shortcut to spectacular results. It doesn't make up for a lack of training or skill on the part of the end user.


To answer the both of you, no, RDS on handguns is not a panacea for lack of skill or experience. The more time I spend with the set up the more that becomes glaringly obvious. Trigger time or not, your comments are not off base JW.

"Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you."

quote:
Originally posted by senorlechero:
Doc, what MRDS are you using?

For those using the Trijicon RMR LED, what's the battery life been like?

Any issues going from bright light directly to low light?

How difficult is it to change batteries?

Do you need to rezero after a battery change?
S/F


The battery life has been good over the last several months, I have not done extensive unit testing with the battery life. The red dot maintains very good visibility when transitioning from dark to light but sometimes appears too bright from light to dark. Battery replacement requires you to lift the entire unit and replace the magnetized battery beneath it, not something that can be done on the fly and will also require re-zeroing. If you notice I have index marks all over my RMR, another caveat of the setup is the introduction of multiple failure points (mounting screws) to your handgun. Loctite IS required to mount the red dot without problems and obviously contradicts any quick battery replacement ideas.

"Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you."

quote:
Originally posted by STS45:
What about for someone who is not a shooter, and has no intention on spending the time to get good with irons.


STS45,

When first "reteaching" my wife trigger control I used a RDS equipped .22 pistol. My thought process being that I could minimize the problems she was having with sight alignment and work one issue at a time.

That of course was on a square range with all the time in the world. Without putting in the required reps I think it would cause more harm than good when trying to hunt for the dot under stress.

__________________________ Those kids need some fucking mentors. The beating stops when the bleeding stops. How fucking hard is that?-DZ Folk don't like the Bible until its time wipe every bad guy from the face of the Earth, and suddenly, its The Playbook. -Duke

Sweatpants, thanks brother. I'm thinking the dual illum RMR is the most reliable setup. My problem is the amber dot, I don't think it'll be easy enough to pick up. I'd love to see a model with a green dot, green FO front sights are so incredibly easy to spot it's great.

Is the jpoint a viable option? I firmly believe this concept has merit, as much as running a red dot on a carbine does. And I want to try it out, without breaking the bank.
Did you read the other thread?

The Trijicon 8 MOA LED RMR is the best of the current options and has a battery life approaching 2 years. We have removed ours and replaced them several times without any major shifts in zero. Unless you are some sick twisted soul who loved the Reflex, you're way better off skipping the less than ideal dual illuminated RMR. The next best appears to be the Leupold DeltaPoint, although we just started using them, so don't have enough time with them or rounds down range to conclusively tell. After that I'd place the ITI MRDS. Then much further down the curve the DrOptic, followed the J-Point, Burris Fastfire, etc...
Here is my current carry setup:



At first I was slower with it, but after 2-3k rounds, I am to the point where I just bought two more RMR's for my G34 and G21. I just cant see using irons anymore, this is just much quicker. There is definately a learning curve, and I am just now starting to see the real benefits of it. I am still slightly quicker with irons, but way more precise with the dot. I dont think it will be long before my speed catches up and surpasses that of irons. Still the biggest drawback is acquiring a sight picture on presentation. There is no frame of reference, you either see the dot or you dont. With irons, you can always see the relationship.

A couple of other notes:

Battery life is good. I keep this gun in the safe, so most of the time, the dot is dimmed all the way down. I will probably replace every year.

I have a 4MOA dot on this gun, my next two will be 8MOA, and eventually I will move the 4MOA to something else and have all 8MOA.

If you get crud on the inside of the lens (Where the dot projects), its a big deal (Say full of mud or dirt). Then you have no dot and no irons. Its also fairly hard to clean out.

If you get mud on the outside of the lens, its fine, like shooting an aimpoint with the front lens cap on.

The biggest drawback I see is drawing a gun thinking the dot is on. If the dot is dead for whatever reason, it messes with your OODA loop. Because you either see the dot or you dont, you spend precious time looking for it until you realize its dead and revert to irons. Close in, its probably not a huge deal since you can ghost the shot, but farther out it may be an issue. I always check three things when I put this gun on. Chambered, light, and dot.

The RMR is incredibly robust, it makes one handed manipulations much easier, ive racked it on barricades, tables, holster, heck you can even do it in soil if you have to. It will take a beating.

I have had no issues carrying it, doesnt print anymore than a regular gun, isnt any heavier, and doesnt dig into me. Off the shelf holster selection may be difficult.

Overall I am happy with it as evidenced by buying dots for all my glocks (except the 26). I will get even more exposure and hopefully be just as happy with them as I am with this one.

But I know as soon as I receive these two other RMR's aimpoint will release the uber handgun dot.

_________________________
Unity Tactical

quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:


I can see lots of pros to this, just not at my skill level.


Really wanna to try this set up. I'd have to try it first before making such a $$$$ as the optics and the milling etc costs more then the gun from what I seen for costs.

- Will

 

General Performance/Fitness/Health Advice for all: www.BrinkZone.com

 

“Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

After increasingly experimenting with pistol mounted RDS systems over the past year, the consensus around here seems to be that either the Trijicon 8 MOA LED RMR or the Leupold Deltapoint 7.5 MOA triangle milled into the slide in conjunction with tall iron suppressor height sights are the best current options for mounting an RDS on a duty/CCW pistol. I am using 9 mm Glocks and M&P45's currently set-up like this and am in the process of getting some 1911’s set-up with RDS’s.

As I have stated before, it does take a lot of dry firing/drawing and several thousand live rounds to become proficient with an RDS. I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. Shooting at moving targets and when I am moving is substantially easier with the RDS. In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor!

If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with iron sights due to the speed advantage; however, given the vision changes following my bicycle accident induced basilar skull fracture last year, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons.

I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up iron sights. With BIS, I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there.

Holsters for pistols with a slide mounted RDS require a bit of thought; the best I have used so far for off-duty/CCW use are the Fricke Seraphim for AIWB & IWB, along with the Fricke Gideon Elite for OWB. Another good OWB holster is the Alessi DOJ-open port. A relatively cheap and easy to acquire holster that works with RDS equipped pistols is the Comp Tac Belt Holster. The Raven RCS and CCC Looper work very well after minor modification to the front edges of the shirt guard and area over the ejection port. For overt tactical/duty carry of RDS equipped pistols, the Safariland 6004 and other SLS variants work well, but require more substantial holster modifications. Unfortunately, the Safariland ALS holsters do not work with RDS sights at this time. The Holsters Plus Sure-Lock OWB retention holster does work with RDS sights.

Below are some Glocks with 8 MOA RMR’s and tall Ameriglo suppressor type back-up iron sights milled by Mark Housel of L&M Precision Gunworks in Prescott, AZ:

Are those sights reliable enough? more than an EOTech?

What about installation? gunsmith needed?

I guess Micro T-1 is discarded by its dimensions, though it seems to run properly. I shot a G18 with a Micro T-1 and it was easy and effective, but size was a problem for daily carry, as somebody has already said before.

Joined: 30DEC08      Location: SPAIN

Take care, keep safe, stay frosty, brother!

tirotactico.net

I just had this conversation with DOcGKR last night. The RMR milled into the slide is a much cleaner set up and the easiest to use. The Aimpoint Micro is by far the must durable way to go, but harder to actually learn to use, and you are more limited as to mounting and carrying them. On anything with an actual butttock, the Aimpoint Micro rules the day (the HK MP7 is a good example), but for a inside the waistband rig, the RMR milled into the slide seems to be the best option.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

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