Originally Posted by Mark Housel:
quote:
Originally posted by Keebsley:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Housel:
There will also be Tritium sights of the proper height in about 8 weeks from Trijicon.

I have them on order and will be stocking them for the ATOM installs and other projects.


Just curious but for those of us that need/are looking for new BUIS, will the new Trijicon tritiums be a "plug and play" with ATOM mounts or will they need to be modified to be installed and work?


While they will need to be modified due to the shallow dovetail once that is done they will then be "plug and play".

At long last the taller Trijicon Tritium suppressor sights have arrived.  Unfortunately they are Yellow Rear and Green Front rather than the Green all around that I thought I ordered.

 

So for ATOM installations that want both taller and Tritium BUIS I have these available.  They will be modified for the shallower ATOM dovetail.

$130 for the set.

 

 

 

================================================

FFL Type 01

"I have learned that wisdom can be as simple as substituting facts for assumptions."

10. Batteries and shit. Yeah, some are solar powered, and some have battery life for years and years, but they can reddotstill break, and then you’re left with trying to co-witness through the thing with iron sights you can barely see.

9. It’s only a faster and more accurate way to aim. If your grip and trigger pull cause you to shoot low left with iron sights, guess what? You will shoot low left with a dot. You can’t just buy talent. Ok, you can, but it’s expensive and at some point someone is going to tease you for bolting all that crap to your Glock.

8. Glare, wetness, and other naughty words. If the sun catches your optic right you really can’t see much through it, and seeing the dot may be nearly impossible. If it gets wet you’re going to see little dots on all of the water droplets. Does that sound awesome and tactical? It doesn’t to me, either.

7. Everyone knows size matters: If it’s too big, you won’t carry it. I’ll expand that to say if your holster sucks you also won’t carry it. So adding size to your defensive gun while limiting holster options doesn’t seem like the greatest idea.

6. You ever try shooting sideways “gangsta” style with a red dot? It’s really hard.

5. Cell phones give off radiation. Batteries may not be great to put next to your junk. Do you really want to put yet one more electronic piece of equipment next to the family jewels? Haven’t they suffered enough already? I mean, unless you want some of that performance-enhancing Chemo so you can win some bike races, you may want to limit the number of gadgets you park next to your rod and tackle all day.

4. You know that whatever red dot you buy today will be replaced by a newer, better, cheaper version in a year. So milling your slide to accept this year’s version doesn’t seem like a great idea, and you would be faced with the same dilemma next year as well. Going on into perpetuity, you would be advised to never install a red dot on your defensive gun.

3. All of the top competitors use frame-mounted red dot sights, yet all of the defensive versions seem to be slide-mounted. What’s the difference? Slide-mounted optics move with the slide every time it reciprocates. That means it’s even harder to track the dot, and it also means your optic receives more abuse than if it were mounted to the frame and it didn’t move. There is a reason competitors don’t use slide-mounted optics: They suck compared to the alternative.

2. Have you ever gone to a public shooting range with a new toy? It’s the worst. Every dumbass with a Hi-Point claims they left their good pistol at home and wants to engage you in conversation and even squeeze off a few of your rounds with your pistol. It’s the worst. You think to yourself, “I bothered to take a shower this morning and I was courteous enough to pretend you don’t exist, how about returning the favor, Cletus?” If you put a red dot on your defensive pistol you will have to deal with that every time you go to a public range. Pass!

1. The field of view on the defensive models is tiny. Even the best competition shooters with red dots sometimesreddot3struggle to find the dot, and their field of view is huge compared to the tactical models. They also have compensators and ammo designed to mitigate recoil – and their dot still goes out of the field of view for every shot. Good luck keeping track of the dot on your little slide-mounted Trijicon shooting a Glock 19 with defensive ammo. And if you have to shoot one handed it’s even harder! On the other hand, the front sight is easy to find. It’s always in the same place!

 

http://thefirearmreport.com/20...-a-defensive-pistol/

 

Probably the dumbest thing I've ever read in regards to firearms. I get the feeling the author has never even held an optic equipped handgun.

XGEP -  thanks for posting that.  I read it earlier today and my brain just now recovered from the staggering retardedness.

 

#6 and #2 made me hope - even for an instant - that it was satire, but I really DO think the author might be that clueless....

 

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"Of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there; Eighty are nothing but targets; Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them... They make the battle. Ah; but One; One of them is a Warrior... And he will bring the others back." - Heraclitus (Circa 500 B.C.)

 

Joined:  6/10/09          Location:  WDC area  (most of the time...)

 

Originally Posted by XGEP:
(Link to SUPER RETARDED ARTICLE)

Yeah...here's the problem.
10 - Iron sights fall off guns too, dipshit.
9 - Why would anyone want a faster and more accurate way to aim?  Hmm...maybe because it's a FASTER AND MORE ACCURATE WAY TO AIM.
8 - Yeah, screens can get wet/muddy/glare, etc.  You know what else does?  Windshields...rifle optics...glasses...man, it's a good thing, nobody uses any of THOSE things downrange.
7 - Limiting holster options doesn't mean limiting QUALITY holster options.  I can name a dozen companies right off-hand that make holsters that work with RMRs, and they're all way better holsters than I usually see in use by Joe Average.
6 - You know what else is really hard?  Imagining WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE THINKING ADVOCATING THAT.  Pardon me, I had to channel some Mr. Torgue Flexington.  Seriously, "It doesn't work well shooting gangster style, so it's bad" has now become an acceptable reason for anything?
5 - A, this is appendix-specific, which makes it a bad general reason (as "specific" and "general" don't mesh well).  B, the writer doesn't wear a wristwatch, carry a cell phone, use a laptop/tablet, etc.?  It must have been a holy bitch to post this to the internet from his motherfucking Underwood No. 5.
4 - You know that handgun you buy will have a better version released at some point in the future, so don't buy one at all!
3 - It's hard to carry a frame-mounted optic in a concealed holster, pal. Yeah, frame-mounted optics are nice compared to slide-mounted...but they're both nice compared to irons.  Just because one's better doesn't mean the other's worthless.
2 - OH MY GOD WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL TALK TO US!
1 -The field of view on my iron sights is tiny, too.  I mean, you can really only see the sights lined up if you line up the sights...AT WHICH POINT YOU CAN SEE YOUR DOT.

This article should have been in the FAIL thread, not this one.  I wish I knew the person who wrote it, so I could make sure never to let them within 50 feet of me.

"Rule #1: Use your good judgment in all situations. There will be no additional rules." - Nordstrom's Employee Handbook

I am quite certain the editor screwed up a few words in that blog entry. I think it's supposed to read "The top 10 reasons I am an uninformed asshat." Jesus.  

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

As was pointed out to me by someone much wiser. "These are a lot of the same arguements that were used for carbine mounted red dots."

 

I wasnt around for that, but I am sure its true.

 

I believe that dots will be common on pistols in 5 years, and downright required in 10.

_________________________
Unity Tactical

Hmm, strange ... as mentioned the arguments against them are the same as in '98, '99 when we started working with them at the Office.

 

Got an RDS 'd pistol into the hands of two other coppers at the Office. One in his fifties and the other doing a pretty amazing recovery from a stroke - now having sight issues. Both shoot noticably better with a RDS than iron sights. 

I will agree with one thing....I think until we get to where the slide is moving and the optic isn't we aren't "there" yet.  I also think at that point we will see pistols designed around everyday carry with a RDS equipped pistol.  This is probably a few years out, but when it happens, I see the day where all of our carbines, shotguns, and pistols are all using the same sight.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

I still think its a good thing that these stopgaps (on slide) are gaining traction, as it will encourage better solutions. The 1990s had a lot of bad optic mounts. Top of the carry handle was bad enough, but look at everyone else's rifles, and mounts were almost universally heavy, bulky, unreliable or practically unavailable. 

 

I don't have a dotted up pistol, but am happily following this and waiting for you all to evolve it to the point I'll try it out. But it's already getting there; I am old enough that if I carried a non-concealed gun for a living, I'd probably try one out very seriously. I can't imagine what we'll have in just 2-3 years. 

 

This is what innovation looks like. Keep it up. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I wonder how much faster these are than say a set of XS big dots.  I've been wanting to try a pistol with one on it for awhile.  I've heard some opinions both positive and not negative from people I know that have run a RDS on a pistol.  I feel like its up to the shooter.

I dont see where mr sticker bothered to credit Jeff Gonzales for that 2nd picture.

 

"11th reason I'm a handjob."

 

 

 

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"Of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there; Eighty are nothing but targets; Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them... They make the battle. Ah; but One; One of them is a Warrior... And he will bring the others back." - Heraclitus (Circa 500 B.C.)

 

Joined:  6/10/09          Location:  WDC area  (most of the time...)

 

Originally Posted by Runcible:

"Dismissive opinions of things you don't have first hand experience with aren't too constructive."

That should be tattooed across the foreheads of about 70% of the general public.

"Rule #1: Use your good judgment in all situations. There will be no additional rules." - Nordstrom's Employee Handbook

I finally got my Unity Atom slide set up this weekend on my Glock 17, then I read this tool's article. So fad I'm loving a RDS on my pistol and was just shaking my head when I saw this article on FB earlier. Has he even tried one out?

Like others, I've heard these same arguments when it comes to RDS on carbines or shotguns. Twice from cheap cops at work that are really just trying to justify not spending cash to make there weapon more effective.

 

 

 

Joined: 10/16/10  Location: WA

Ha I just saw this article on a friends facebook wall I think my response was about the same as here. I think RDS for handguns are like the aimpoints of the late 90's. They were on the right track and as they were used more and more they got better each generation afterwards till what we got now. They will only get better. I would still rock a generation 1 m68 from the late 90's. I think my battery consumption would irritate me though.

Witch

Those sound like dumbass reasons. Can't take your cool piece of kit to the range? Stop shooting at ass-hat ranges on public days.

 

It sounds a LOT like the arguments used against polymer framed pistols. Against the introduction of the M16 vs the M14. Of the M14 vs the M1, of the M1 vs the Krag, of the metallic cartridge over the paper ones, of the introduction of caps over flintlocks......

 

I wish more people would use RDS on pistols, the more that do the better the RDS will have to become lest they lose market share to the better RDS.

 

KBK

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

Location Cape Town, South Africa

 

Originally Posted by goteron:

As was pointed out to me by someone much wiser. "These are a lot of the same arguements that were used for carbine mounted red dots."

 

I wasnt around for that, but I am sure its true.

 

I believe that dots will be common on pistols in 5 years, and downright required in 10.

Oh, it's true...

There are still are large number of Followers of Ned who still believe the carbine RDS is the anti Christ, unnecessary, and detrimental to "marksmanship"

Assclowns abound...

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:
 I have a significant increase in accuracy past 25yds, with no negatives noted...

I don't have a RDS on my G23 but run Crimson Trace Lasergrips (I know, apples-to-oranges comparison but bear with me). Bifocals make iron sights & even tritium iron sights harder to use. The laser & the RDS put the aiming point in the same focal plane as the target.

 

When the lighting is perfect & my eyes aren't tired the irons give good groups. The laser gives smaller groups the rest of the time.

 

Biggest gripe about the laser is that it aims the frame where the RDS aims the barrel-slide. If slide to frame fit isn't consistent the laser introduces more potential for error & larger groups.

 


Joined: 6SEPT2012 from Benton, Illinois Website: www.Precision.Works

Chief Tecumseh "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart"

I run both the RDS and CT Laser Grips.

The Laser made my initial dry practice significantly easier.
I run the laser on the carbine and the pistol for a great number of reasons and for a long period of time. 

 

The endstate is not "Marksmanship* but winning the fucking Gunfight.
Anything that makes me more efficient is what I want to use.

Pretty fucking simple...

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

I run both the RDS and CT Laser Grips.

The Laser made my initial dry practice significantly easier.
I run the laser on the carbine and the pistol for a great number of reasons and for a long period of time. 

 

The endstate is not "Marksmanship* but winning the fucking Gunfight.
Anything that makes me more efficient is what I want to use.

Pretty fucking simple...

That's a fantastic setup. The odds of both the laser & the RDS failing at the same time are pretty small. And the irons are always available no matter what.

 


Joined: 6SEPT2012 from Benton, Illinois Website: www.Precision.Works

Chief Tecumseh "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart"

Speaking to lasers used in conjunction with...

I want to put a laser on my RMR'd glocks. I don't particularly Ike the X400, and the crimson trace emitter doesn't work for my gigantor hands and the way I grip the gun. Is there anyone else that makes a quality laser that works, or should I just deal with the X400, since I already run a U boat anyway?

If you can't F@#* it, frag it ~ Dad

I've been looking at one of the Lasermax guide rods (esp now that they have a green version out) but the reports I've read are kind of iffy and I'm not 100% on the idea of changing a Glock internal component like that unless the replacement is confirmed reliable...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Now with more death power!"

 

Joined: 3/22/09     Location:  'nooga

Originally Posted by Steven Beall:

Speaking to lasers used in conjunction with...

I want to put a laser on my RMR'd glocks. I don't particularly Ike the X400, and the crimson trace emitter doesn't work for my gigantor hands and the way I grip the gun. Is there anyone else that makes a quality laser that works, or should I just deal with the X400, since I already run a U boat anyway?

I've heard good things about Viridian, but only from civilian CCW conditions, not under duty conditions. You could also try the Crimson Trace Rail Master series, although that would force you to give up the WML. What's your beef with the X400? Size? Laser offset?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

Laser offset, plain and simple. 

I have given consideration to the Viridians, but the lack of lumen output turns me off. It would primarily be a CCW.

As to the lasermax, I have never heard anything good, and I also run aftermarket guiderods/springs.

If you can't F@#* it, frag it ~ Dad

Originally Posted by jvencius:
I've been looking at one of the Lasermax guide rods (esp now that they have a green version out) but the reports I've read are kind of iffy and I'm not 100% on the idea of changing a Glock internal component like that unless the replacement is confirmed reliable...


Plus, don't fall for the idea that a strobing aim laser is some kind of capital idea. 

 

Yeah, it'll grab your attention just the way they say...

 

...but it'll KEEP grabbing it on every pulse and can make the eye jitterbug trying to keep track of the spot where the dot fell on the last of the 4+/sec pulses...but then the dot goes away and ends up somewhere else due to natural wobble-zone PLUS whatever movement brought on by "Shit, the dot's not where I want it, better move the....HEY WHERE THE FUCK DID THE DOT GO!!??...oh, there it....WTF!!?....aha....DAMMIT...there...!!"  *BANG*  and it's snatched because the shooter ambushed the trigger.

 

Granted, that's particularly in the hands of a less experienced practitioner, and it's not a game-stopper any more than retention shooting at bad-breath distances is, and it can be trained through with some concerted effort....but it's both there AND totally avoidable by sticking with a continuous-beam emitter, vice a repetitive-pulse. 

 

Pulse is great for C&C/signal in an IR illuminator, or a nonlethal ocular interruption device, but D-U-M dumb as an aim laser.

 

Clue:  What other reticle on what other optic PULSES, except as something like a low-batt indicator?

Joined:  11/17/09          Location:  Fredericksburg, VA

We need a whole separate thread for WML and Lasers. I could get a lefty rant on in those. 

 

Anyone got a significant round count using one of the new, more durable RDS? I'm holding off , but still squirreling away money , on getting my M&P set up just to hear feed back.

Originally Posted by PrecisionWorks:
<snip>
 
 Bifocals make iron sights & even tritium iron sights harder to use.

 

When you get to the point where you need trifocals to see the computer screen, this problem will be fixed too.  The useful area to see through is small, but the clarity of the front sight is excellent.

 

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“The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of “loyalty” and “duty.” Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute – get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed.”

- Robert A. Heinlein

 

Joined: 4/22/09          Location: WI

Being 55 years old with bifocals I have noticed much more difficulty lately being able to focus on the front sight and get consistent groups with open sights out beyond 15 yrds. 

After taking a Combative Pistol 2 course from Jeff Gonzales in August and trying out one of his RMR equipped Glocks and reading through this thread, I decided it was time to take the red-dot-sight plunge.

 

I exchanged a few e-mails with Mark at L&M Precision GunWorks and ended up ordering a G17 gen3 with a Trijicon RMR RM06 using the ATOM mount and plain black suppressor height BUIS mounted in front of the RMR from him.  I was very pleasantly surprised to receive the completed gun from Mark after only a week from the day I ordered it!

 

I did some very minor modifications to a Raven Concealment Phantom holster I had to get the BUIS and RMR to clear the body shield and top lip of the holster.  Once this was complete I began doing some practice draws and dry firing with the new set-up.  Like a number of other folks have said, it does take a little getting used to finding the dot while presenting the gun to the target.  I used a trick that I had heard helped others in this regard by looking for the front sight while presenting the gun to the target and sure enough this helped greatly in finding the red dot.  So it was time to head to the range to try the new set-up out.  I began at 5 yrds just to get the feeling of finding the dot through the draw cycle and after going through a few magazines of one shot draws finding the dot was becoming more natural.  Moving progressively out to the 25yrd line I made some very minor adjustments on the RMR to get it zeroed at 25yrds.  Once this was completed I put about a total of 200 rds downrange from 25yrds and was amazed at the noticeable improvement in my groups compared to open sights.  The RDS lets you maintain your focus on the target and not worry about focusing on the front sight (which for me with my eyesight is an issue).

 

I look forward to continuing to get comfortable with the new set-up and like others have said; feel that red-dot-sight equipped handguns are a blessing to those of us with “old man eyes”.

Thanks again to Mark at L&M Precision GunWorks for his quality craftsmanship and unbelievably fast service

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

 

Thomas Jefferson

I ran "Wonder Gun" (credit on naming goes to Jason Falla, and you need to sing it)  at the recent RedBackOne Advanced Hostage course at ITI last week.  I know have slightly over 2,800 rds thru it now.  Its a S&W M&P 9mm CORE with Leupold DeltaPoint.

  It's also my daily carry gun now.  It survived the class and for some aspect a total godsend (shoot irons in a gas mask in a smoke/gas filled room -- not fun so much).  It also survived combatives on the class.   

 

My plan is to find someone (hint) to work on a M&P 9C so I can put a MRDS on it as well).

 

I've shot it in the rain as well and after this class some of my concerns about using it on a duty holster have been alleviated.  Just need winter to role into NOVA and I will see about snow issues.

 

 

 

______________________________

Kevin S. Boland

Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

Originally Posted by Mark Housel:
Originally Posted by KevinB

My plan is to find someone (hint) to work on a M&P 9C so I can put a MRDS on it as well).

 

Something along the lines of this?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17795349@N08/sets/72157632650381939/

 

Broken link -- but yeah I think so.

______________________________

Kevin S. Boland

Director of R&D

Law Tactical LLC

 

Mobile: 407-451-4544 

www.lawtactical.com

 

Joined: 10/8/03  

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