Red Dot Sights for Handguns

I have had this thought for a while, but it's just a thought as I do not have the facilities (or contacts) to build anything like this. But sitting way too long with Foxdie yesterday, somehow it came up, he thought I wasn't stupid, so, here: 

One thing that bugs me about RDS on a pistol is how much, and in which dimension, it changes the package size. It even causes issues for holstering, etc. But there are other spaces on the gun where adding stuff wouldn't matter as much. 

So that and other ideas make me think, what about an occluded sight on the BACK of the slide. You could mount it much like this: 

Here I have postulated an RMR-like sight to the rear, retained by the rear striker plate mounting bits, AND the rear sight dovetail, all used to retain the unit. Without actually measuring too much I also have distributed the bits to keep size down so that the battery is in the lump forward of the rear sights for example. The optics could even intrude into the gun by using some of the volume of the striker plate, etc. 

The sight picture is then like this: 

Or of course, occluded. You open both eyes to use your brain as the collimator, and get a red dot on the target just like a windowed RDS.

Yes, there are (probably normal height) irons above for backup, and if you could arrange it as such, you could get the "sight window" high enough to get the dot to be placed very high, not much below the iron sights. Which may be helpful.  

It might then have parallax differences between center of window, but who cares if you zero for your preferred sight position. 

I would try it myself, but think this would be hard to back yard gunsmith on. While an RMR could certainly be mounted here, it would be an awful big mount by the time it got solidly attached. So sadly, this needs a complete design by someone reputable.

Still 1) we did crazier ideas in the first few pages of the thread  and 2) crazy ideas come to market!. After playing with one, I have ordered a Bullseye FT to try on the Kahr (too small for an RDS IMO, anyway).

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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https://www.m4carbine.net/show...ccluded-Eye-Gunsight

I feel like an occluded eye sight doesn't really have the precision that an actual RDS would for many folks, given those results that Molon found.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

Even addressed at the end of that thread, people have varying response to this sort of stuff. I for one used to be awful at it, learned that the semi-pro name for one set of optical symptoms is non-coincidental vision. I used to not even be able to use binoculars (had to close one eye) and shot slower because I was one-eyed all the time. Dunno if that part changed as my eyes fluctuated or I trained myself but I have eliminated most of it, can use binocular NODS and shoot both eyes open now, etc. 

BUT: note the link brings up a deviation when switching from seeing through to forcing occlusion due to closing a lenscap. If you can only use it occluded, it wouldn't matter as that's the only way the system is set up. You zero occluded, and shoot occluded, so: no variation possible. Much as I mentioned how you can zero well to the side even if there is much parallax, as long as consistent, no problem. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I was referring more to the 7" groups that Molon shot; 7" ES at 25 yards, benched slow fire, seems pretty unacceptable to me.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。


Joined: 2008-07-16

I was hoping I misread or misunderstood that bit. If reproducible that IS harder to explain esp from what I know of human vision, previous reading/experience with occluded sights. 

The best info I have is applicable to all sorts of sights, not just occluded dots. Wandering reticles can happen to anyone, more so for phoria/non-coincidental vision. The group size may have been because he is prone to this issue AND took his time to aim. At first alignment, things are predictable so more accurate. After 2-4 seconds (varies by person, time of day...) you can start wandering. 

Would be interesting to explore, find how much real world handgun use would affect this. I bet little, as even gun-out for a while seems to usually  be below the eyeline, then you snap up to actually aim and fire. I can imagine how to measure it, but I don't have the equipment myself as it's expensive. Someone get me an investor! 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

K.O.A.M. posted:

Has anyone dropped a Leupold Delta Point Pro onto a Sig M17 yet?  If so, was it a direct drop in fit and what type of front sight did you put on to accommodate the optic?  Thanks.

You’ll need a front sight nearly a 1/2-inch tall. Dawson makes them. 

For those using DPP, what kind of battery life are you getting on every day carry guns?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

PM07 posted:

For those using DPP, what kind of battery life are you getting on every day carry guns?

The Leupold DPP is the EOTech of MRDS’, as far as battery life is concerned.

I’ve got a few of them on pistols. Daily carry they last 2-3 months in my experience.

 

WoodlandSOU posted:

.455 height to be exact. This might create holster fitment issues, depending on the manufacturer. It’s tall. SIG’s OE suppressor sights WILL NOT work. 

That's part of the reason I switched to RMR from the DPP I had originally bought. With the Dawson cowitness sights, I couldn't even fit the G34 into a 6384RDS ALS holster because the front sight would bind.

Joined: 30 May 2003                  Location: SE PA

Shield is taking pre-orders on a beefed up, supposedly waterproof version of the RMS.

Looks like they beefed up the frame/housing, improved the (still) polymer lens, and of course made it (allegedly) waterproof.

Anxious to see a review as I would be willing to spend the coin to try it out, but don't really want to mill a slide for a T&E project.

K.O.A.M. posted:

Has anyone dropped a Leupold Delta Point Pro onto a Sig M17 yet?  If so, was it a direct drop in fit and what type of front sight did you put on to accommodate the optic?  Thanks.

If it's anything like the X5, which it appears to be, a .40" tall front from Dawson is what I'm using. Runs about $20 from Dawson, I'm using the $8 Galloway rear as well. Fits in Safariland 6360rds no problem.

In Valor There Is Hope

PM07 posted:

For those using DPP, what kind of battery life are you getting on every day carry guns?

I find it to be battery dependent, I first used a Panasonic and it only lasted a little over a month in my X-carry which I carry appendix daily. I replaced it with a duracell on 7/19 and it's still going strong. My duty gun is an x5 with DPP and has been running on the original duracell since 8/20. I have both set to be visible when using an x300u 600 lumen light for brightness reference. I've had a total of 0 issues with either, I currently have a 3rd X slide with Mark Housel being milled for a training gun. I actually sold one of my 320c RMR slides so I could add the 3rd DPP on another X5 slide.

In Valor There Is Hope

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