Topic has come up while discussing our likely to be enacted new laws here in Virginia. Are there any rimfire rounds worthy of consideration for self defense? Pistols clearly have better ballistic options that will still be legal, but considering if there are any centerfire rounds that would be usable in a carbine type platform to get the accuracy benefit of a stocked weapon.

Original Post

Why down grade all the way to rimfire just to use a stock?

Why not run a Ruger Gunsite  Scout Rifle or something? Or an 870? Semi auto and standard capacity mags ain't the end all, be all. Full power hits on target still is...

If the 2A hits keep coming, someone is going to come out with a straight pull rifle that uses 5 and 10 round AR 15 or 10 mags. It will be fast, accurate, light, powerful and for awhile.... 50 state legal.

Regardless of why/why not, I like this topic. Cuz why not?

 

I've got an M&P15 in .22. It's really fun to shoot, very accurate, and cheap to feed. Self defense?  It's not my first choice for rim fire.  I really want to find an AR platform in .17 HMR. 

 

I've got a bolt gun in .17 and it's extremely accurate a bit past 200 yards, turns ground squirrels into a very satisfying pink mist, and is more than adequate for coyotes.  People ain't much tougher. It's sends a 17 grn bullet out around 2500 fps.  Inside of 100 yards, I'd trust it to do some serious damage, especially several rounds. 

 

I haven't dove head first into rim fire really. I've got a handful, but they're trainers/plinkers.  Been thinking of getting into it more just for fun. 

 

I know there are obviously better options for self defense, but variety is the spice of life right?

If there would be a ban on centerfire-semiauto rifles, why not go back to the American classic lever action rifles? In .357 it holds 10 rounds of a lot more powerful ammo than a .22 which in a lever action holds 14 (I think)

 

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I’ve seen enough misfires and read enough to believe that rimfires aren’t the best choice from a reliability standpoint.  Apparently the priming mix is squirted into the rim and gaps aren’t unusual.  Once upon a time I believe someone made a rimfire with two firing pins to double the chances of  success.   Having said that KelTec’s CMR-30 looks like a good way to send some .22WMR grief downrange. 

My fall back if my AR shaped rifles all dissolve is a .44 Mag Marlin levergun.  I can reload ammo for that cartridge for years with what I have on my shelf. 

I've shot a ton of .44/.357 in lever guns (never more than 100 yds), but almost nothing in a .22 long gun. Which is less affected at distance, .22 with wind or pistol calibers with drop?

Wind applies force proportional to the surface area of the bullet (more complex than that since it is a curved surface, etc.)  Bullet weight resists the force (inertia).  The heavier .44 or .357 bullet has a lot more inertia, and while usually slower than a hot .22, not by much.  Velocity determines how long the wind exerts force at a given range.   The .22 suffers more wind effect at 100 yds than the pistol bullets because of the huge difference in inertia and momentum.

Not a ballistician, but your bullet drop should be fairly consistent especially in the ranges we are dealing with. I had 1-2 mil swings on wind last weekend inside 100 yards with my .22.

I would rather have the pistol caliber carbine.

I wouldn't want to go up against  someone who knew what they were doing with a Ruger 10/22 and some mags loaded with CCI Mini-Mags.

I can't remember ever having a bad round of Mini-Mags, others yes but not them.

I've often thought if I could only have one gun for survival in the apocalypse it would be a Winchester 94/22 in 22mag and an assortment of different loads.  The loading a tubular mag thing would be a pain.

I still kick myself for passing on a used 94/22 in 22mag with a 16" barrel at a good price shortly after they were discontinued.   Did I mention  recurring bouts of stupid?

stray round posted:

I wouldn't want to go up against  someone who knew what they were doing with a Ruger 10/22 and some mags loaded with CCI Mini-Mags.

I can't remember ever having a bad round of Mini-Mags, others yes but not them.

I've often thought if I could only have one gun for survival in the apocalypse it would be a Winchester 94/22 in 22mag and an assortment of different loads.  The loading a tubular mag thing would be a pain.

I still kick myself for passing on a used 94/22 in 22mag with a 16" barrel at a good price shortly after they were discontinued.   Did I mention  recurring bouts of stupid?

Yea I have a Ruger 96/22Mag and it's a keeper. Sold it to a friend in a moment of weakness, then got it back. Stupid accurate with ammo it likes - 5 shots in an inch at 100 yards, off a bag. Only issue I have with it is the stock. It's a bit short in the LOP, and the drop is a bit low for scope use. Thinking of just adding a aftermarket buttpad that might add a bit to the length. Secondary prices on these rifles are crazy right now. Always wondered how the .44 Mag version shot.

 

I pretty much went with what STRAY ROUND posted when a friend asked. She has a 10-22 she takes camping. So the .22 LR can only do so much, number of rounds on target is important. Made sure to get some quality 25 round mags to go with the CCI Mini Mags.

Dave

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I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

I have leverguns in .30/30, .45/70 and .44, the pistol caliber rifle is a bit quicker on follow up shots.  The .45/70 rarely needs followup shots.  

Rick R2 posted:
Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

I have leverguns in .30/30, .45/70 and .44, the pistol caliber rifle is a bit quicker on follow up shots.  The .45/70 rarely needs followup shots.  

For hunting, definitely. The topic is self defense, which I have no experience in, so that was speculation based on my use of the square range.

I agree,  my two .45/70 rifles only hold 4(+1), that round was designed to take a horse out from under an enemy soldier over 100 years ago and recovery can be a bit slow.  

My .44 holds 10(+1) and would be my “bump in the night” rifle if semiautos were forbidden.  Unless I lived somewhere that 600 lb predators bumped around in the dark. 

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

CAE5 posted:

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

Following that logic, high cap mags in an AR aren't necessary if you have a larger caliber. Would you rather a 5 round mag in a .308 or a 10 round mag in 5.56?

Not particularly but I think hes mostly talking about pistol vs rifle caliber for defense.  

I've owned a .44 Mag Marlin. Personally I'd roll with a .357 loaded with 180s, even then it's very low recoil. If I needed more,  .30-30.

The new Henry X, or Marlin dark series, show how one can be set up without going the Full Costa Ludus version.

 

XS sights, a light, and a small bit of rail for a LPVO or dot. Side mounted sling is nice but optional. Slick up the lever though I'm not a large loop guy.

22F's Mistress and Cheerleader are good examples. 

MrMurphy posted:
(edited some for brevity)

”I've owned a .44 Mag Marlin. Personally I'd roll with a .357 loaded with 180s, even then it's very low recoil. If I needed more,  .30-30.”

There is a well thought out argument out there in the Internet for just that setup.

I already shoot, load and cast bullets for the .44 Mag.  A 270gr WFN or the same bullet hollow pointed as 250gr gets 1600+fps out of my carbine.  I’ve hit steel out to nearly 200 yards with that load using XS sights.  I’d propose that “Magnum” revolver cartridges in a carbine are different animals than auto cartridges like the 9mm or .45acp in a carbine.

.357 from a rifle length bbl. gets a real boost and good .38 spl loads get into 357 handgun levels.    

Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I'd like to see a reintroduction of the Savage 99s.  One sized down for handgun cartridges  or 223 length rounds would be  too much to wish for.

Theres a Marlin 357 lever at the local shop calling my name hard. 16" barrel, XS rail and sight, large loop, and mimics my 45-70  set up the same way.  It would work well for many problems that need solved. Fast, light, and durable.  That being said, my 18" in 45-70 is what my wife calls the problem solver, as in "It will take care of most problems, and the truck they were driving. 505 Hammerheads out of it have a way of making things change configuration in a rather drastic manor. 

Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

Following that logic, high cap mags in an AR aren't necessary if you have a larger caliber. Would you rather a 5 round mag in a .308 or a 10 round mag in 5.56?

MALPASO, Given that choice, roughly same size platform, I'd prefer the  5 round.308. Like LONGEYE mentioned a Ruger Gunsite Scout would be very good.

Magazine capacity isn't everything. Especially, with a lever gun. Easy to feed on the fly like a shotgun. A handgun caliber lever gun will certainly work.  But, for roughly the same size carbine I'd go with the longer reach and give up a few rounds in the tube. I have a Winchester .44 mag lever gun. Lots of fun and I would not feel outgunned out to 75-100 yards. Beyond a 100, the .44 starts to not only drop but lose velocity. In fairness, it is hard to justify self defense beyond 100 yards.

I think 30-30 is overlooked  these days. When I was younger it was considered adequate to solve most problems with minimal recoil.  Pretty close to 7.62x39. 

My carbine of choice, if semi-auto is not an option, is my Marlin 45-70 SBL. I hand load, so I can go with soft shooting trapdoor loads or up to heavy Marlin loads. To me, it gives more options than the .44 mag. That said, to the OP, rim fire would definitely not be a first choice.

stray round posted:

.357 from a rifle length bbl. gets a real boost and good .38 spl loads get into 357 handgun levels.    

Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I'd like to see a reintroduction of the Savage 99s.  One sized down for handgun cartridges  or 223 length rounds would be  too much to wish for.

While I have not timed it, I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 that is quite handy. After I saw Kit Badger's mods on his I threw mine over to Brockmans Rifles to get some irons installed on it. Sadly after I received it from them I never did receive a single response from multiple attempts in regards to some work for a Ruger M77/357. Sometime this year I aim to get a Marlin 1894 CST and maybe with some friends can do a comparison in terms of speed between the two. 

In regards to this topic I also have two Ruger 10/22s with Magpul backpacker stocks on them. So long as I feed them CCI MiniMags I've never had any issues with them, however I wholeheartedly agree with what's been said here. They're great, but not the ideal primary choice for self-defense. I suppose better than nothing, but I really don't want to bet on rimfire reliability for real life solutions. 

It was possibly posted in another thread regarding the use of rimfire for self-defense here, but here was some sample testing of a variety of rimfire rounds. Nothing NIJ or scientific, but head to head comparisons found one that consistently penetrated on average 12 inches of ballistic gelatin. Not recommending the OP or anyone get this, but it was just interesting to see how the different rounds varied in terms of performance even if limited to gelatin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...11&v=CyR1K92pyq4

stray round posted:

   Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I entered the NZ 2020 IPSC Rifle championships in the manual action rifle category a few weeks ago. There was an interesting mix of rifles and pump actions were well represented.

Results with rifle.

1st had a Troy PAR 

2nd BLR Lever (with Lucky 13 magazine)

3rd Ruger Ranch AR

4th Ruger Ranch AR

I think the rifle type is less important than mindset and taking the time to master it.

 

com cam guy posted:

Theres a Marlin 357 lever at the local shop calling my name hard. 16" barrel, XS rail and sight, large loop, and mimics my 45-70  set up the same way.  It would work well for many problems that need solved. Fast, light, and durable.  That being said, my 18" in 45-70 is what my wife calls the problem solver, as in "It will take care of most problems, and the truck they were driving. 505 Hammerheads out of it have a way of making things change configuration in a rather drastic manor. 

If you want to raise some eyebrows...

Pick up a "decomissioned" or "out of date" vest, put a chicken plate in the carrier and set it up on a clay body or ballistic mannequin.

Hammer the plate one time with a 45/70 or 450 Marlin load from Underwood or Buffalo Bore @50 meters and then take a look at the backface deformation and then picture the effects on a human chest / torso.

That test will give anyone that sees the results pause to consider their mortality.

Btw... I have done this test with an IBA and SAPI as well.

I did it to prove a point to some guys getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan early on who were "not worried" about the "ancient relics" (martini, mauser, enfield, H&H, etc) found all over the country- with ammo.

To say that it took the wind out of their sails- well-- that almost covers it.

I appreciate all the comments; definitely some options out there. 

Fortunately we've gotten a year reprieve from this bill.

Note to self...go get something once the buying frenzy dies down, lay in a stock of ammo, practice, and be a little less concerned the next time a ban is proposed.

Rick R2 posted:

I agree,  my two .45/70 rifles only hold 4(+1), that round was designed to take a horse out from under an enemy soldier over 100 years ago and recovery can be a bit slow.  

My .44 holds 10(+1) and would be my “bump in the night” rifle if semiautos were forbidden.  Unless I lived somewhere that 600 lb predators bumped around in the dark. 

...Walmart..lol

In a feeble attempt to lean back toward the OP, I would imagine a handful of well grouped .22LR rounds would get a person's attention.  I don't know how much difference there would be in using hollow point .22LRs.  In my extremely humble opinion (with a capitol E),  if a guy could gather at least a handful of hits into a relatively small area, me thinks it would get someone's attention.  One or two, not-so-much. But a handful------a fair shade better. 

 Obviously nowhere near as effective as a bigger centerfire round, but way better than nothing.   The lack of recoil would make for quicker/more accurate follow-up shots.  That's got to count for something, huh?

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