Topic has come up while discussing our likely to be enacted new laws here in Virginia. Are there any rimfire rounds worthy of consideration for self defense? Pistols clearly have better ballistic options that will still be legal, but considering if there are any centerfire rounds that would be usable in a carbine type platform to get the accuracy benefit of a stocked weapon.

Original Post

Why down grade all the way to rimfire just to use a stock?

Why not run a Ruger Gunsite  Scout Rifle or something? Or an 870? Semi auto and standard capacity mags ain't the end all, be all. Full power hits on target still is...

If the 2A hits keep coming, someone is going to come out with a straight pull rifle that uses 5 and 10 round AR 15 or 10 mags. It will be fast, accurate, light, powerful and for awhile.... 50 state legal.

Regardless of why/why not, I like this topic. Cuz why not?

 

I've got an M&P15 in .22. It's really fun to shoot, very accurate, and cheap to feed. Self defense?  It's not my first choice for rim fire.  I really want to find an AR platform in .17 HMR. 

 

I've got a bolt gun in .17 and it's extremely accurate a bit past 200 yards, turns ground squirrels into a very satisfying pink mist, and is more than adequate for coyotes.  People ain't much tougher. It's sends a 17 grn bullet out around 2500 fps.  Inside of 100 yards, I'd trust it to do some serious damage, especially several rounds. 

 

I haven't dove head first into rim fire really. I've got a handful, but they're trainers/plinkers.  Been thinking of getting into it more just for fun. 

 

I know there are obviously better options for self defense, but variety is the spice of life right?

If there would be a ban on centerfire-semiauto rifles, why not go back to the American classic lever action rifles? In .357 it holds 10 rounds of a lot more powerful ammo than a .22 which in a lever action holds 14 (I think)

 

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I’ve seen enough misfires and read enough to believe that rimfires aren’t the best choice from a reliability standpoint.  Apparently the priming mix is squirted into the rim and gaps aren’t unusual.  Once upon a time I believe someone made a rimfire with two firing pins to double the chances of  success.   Having said that KelTec’s CMR-30 looks like a good way to send some .22WMR grief downrange. 

My fall back if my AR shaped rifles all dissolve is a .44 Mag Marlin levergun.  I can reload ammo for that cartridge for years with what I have on my shelf. 

I've shot a ton of .44/.357 in lever guns (never more than 100 yds), but almost nothing in a .22 long gun. Which is less affected at distance, .22 with wind or pistol calibers with drop?

Wind applies force proportional to the surface area of the bullet (more complex than that since it is a curved surface, etc.)  Bullet weight resists the force (inertia).  The heavier .44 or .357 bullet has a lot more inertia, and while usually slower than a hot .22, not by much.  Velocity determines how long the wind exerts force at a given range.   The .22 suffers more wind effect at 100 yds than the pistol bullets because of the huge difference in inertia and momentum.

Not a ballistician, but your bullet drop should be fairly consistent especially in the ranges we are dealing with. I had 1-2 mil swings on wind last weekend inside 100 yards with my .22.

I would rather have the pistol caliber carbine.

I wouldn't want to go up against  someone who knew what they were doing with a Ruger 10/22 and some mags loaded with CCI Mini-Mags.

I can't remember ever having a bad round of Mini-Mags, others yes but not them.

I've often thought if I could only have one gun for survival in the apocalypse it would be a Winchester 94/22 in 22mag and an assortment of different loads.  The loading a tubular mag thing would be a pain.

I still kick myself for passing on a used 94/22 in 22mag with a 16" barrel at a good price shortly after they were discontinued.   Did I mention  recurring bouts of stupid?

stray round posted:

I wouldn't want to go up against  someone who knew what they were doing with a Ruger 10/22 and some mags loaded with CCI Mini-Mags.

I can't remember ever having a bad round of Mini-Mags, others yes but not them.

I've often thought if I could only have one gun for survival in the apocalypse it would be a Winchester 94/22 in 22mag and an assortment of different loads.  The loading a tubular mag thing would be a pain.

I still kick myself for passing on a used 94/22 in 22mag with a 16" barrel at a good price shortly after they were discontinued.   Did I mention  recurring bouts of stupid?

Yea I have a Ruger 96/22Mag and it's a keeper. Sold it to a friend in a moment of weakness, then got it back. Stupid accurate with ammo it likes - 5 shots in an inch at 100 yards, off a bag. Only issue I have with it is the stock. It's a bit short in the LOP, and the drop is a bit low for scope use. Thinking of just adding a aftermarket buttpad that might add a bit to the length. Secondary prices on these rifles are crazy right now. Always wondered how the .44 Mag version shot.

 

I pretty much went with what STRAY ROUND posted when a friend asked. She has a 10-22 she takes camping. So the .22 LR can only do so much, number of rounds on target is important. Made sure to get some quality 25 round mags to go with the CCI Mini Mags.

Dave

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I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

I have leverguns in .30/30, .45/70 and .44, the pistol caliber rifle is a bit quicker on follow up shots.  The .45/70 rarely needs followup shots.  

Rick R2 posted:
Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I would recommend a 30-30  lever gun.  Reasonably flat to 200 yards. Or, If you're willing to get into hand-loading,  45-70. Both cartridges have been used quite successfully for self defense. The only advantage I see with .357/.44 mag is of you are carrying a handgun same caliber. It is not hard to reload a lever gun as you go with practice.

The difference is follow up shots. I've owned a lot of hyphenated lever guns, .30-30, .38-55, .45-70. They absolutely have distance and trajectory over the pistol calibers, but I could always put three to five shots on target with my .357 and .44 faster than two with the others. Now I've run thousands of rounds through them, so that makes a difference as well, it's a lot harder to practice with those larger calibers.

I have leverguns in .30/30, .45/70 and .44, the pistol caliber rifle is a bit quicker on follow up shots.  The .45/70 rarely needs followup shots.  

For hunting, definitely. The topic is self defense, which I have no experience in, so that was speculation based on my use of the square range.

I agree,  my two .45/70 rifles only hold 4(+1), that round was designed to take a horse out from under an enemy soldier over 100 years ago and recovery can be a bit slow.  

My .44 holds 10(+1) and would be my “bump in the night” rifle if semiautos were forbidden.  Unless I lived somewhere that 600 lb predators bumped around in the dark. 

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

CAE5 posted:

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

Following that logic, high cap mags in an AR aren't necessary if you have a larger caliber. Would you rather a 5 round mag in a .308 or a 10 round mag in 5.56?

Not particularly but I think hes mostly talking about pistol vs rifle caliber for defense.  

I've owned a .44 Mag Marlin. Personally I'd roll with a .357 loaded with 180s, even then it's very low recoil. If I needed more,  .30-30.

The new Henry X, or Marlin dark series, show how one can be set up without going the Full Costa Ludus version.

 

XS sights, a light, and a small bit of rail for a LPVO or dot. Side mounted sling is nice but optional. Slick up the lever though I'm not a large loop guy.

22F's Mistress and Cheerleader are good examples. 

MrMurphy posted:
(edited some for brevity)

”I've owned a .44 Mag Marlin. Personally I'd roll with a .357 loaded with 180s, even then it's very low recoil. If I needed more,  .30-30.”

There is a well thought out argument out there in the Internet for just that setup.

I already shoot, load and cast bullets for the .44 Mag.  A 270gr WFN or the same bullet hollow pointed as 250gr gets 1600+fps out of my carbine.  I’ve hit steel out to nearly 200 yards with that load using XS sights.  I’d propose that “Magnum” revolver cartridges in a carbine are different animals than auto cartridges like the 9mm or .45acp in a carbine.

.357 from a rifle length bbl. gets a real boost and good .38 spl loads get into 357 handgun levels.    

Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I'd like to see a reintroduction of the Savage 99s.  One sized down for handgun cartridges  or 223 length rounds would be  too much to wish for.

Theres a Marlin 357 lever at the local shop calling my name hard. 16" barrel, XS rail and sight, large loop, and mimics my 45-70  set up the same way.  It would work well for many problems that need solved. Fast, light, and durable.  That being said, my 18" in 45-70 is what my wife calls the problem solver, as in "It will take care of most problems, and the truck they were driving. 505 Hammerheads out of it have a way of making things change configuration in a rather drastic manor. 

Malpaso posted:
CAE5 posted:

I guess the way I look at it is, if you know you're going to a gunfight, take a rifle/carbine. If you're taking a rifle, take one that has the power and range of a rifle. If I were doing cowboy matches, I'd take a .357/.44 for the speed and capacity for the game.

 Self-defense isn't regular hunting, it's dangerous game hunting. If you're taking a long gun, why take something less than you would hunting a deer? 

 

Following that logic, high cap mags in an AR aren't necessary if you have a larger caliber. Would you rather a 5 round mag in a .308 or a 10 round mag in 5.56?

MALPASO, Given that choice, roughly same size platform, I'd prefer the  5 round.308. Like LONGEYE mentioned a Ruger Gunsite Scout would be very good.

Magazine capacity isn't everything. Especially, with a lever gun. Easy to feed on the fly like a shotgun. A handgun caliber lever gun will certainly work.  But, for roughly the same size carbine I'd go with the longer reach and give up a few rounds in the tube. I have a Winchester .44 mag lever gun. Lots of fun and I would not feel outgunned out to 75-100 yards. Beyond a 100, the .44 starts to not only drop but lose velocity. In fairness, it is hard to justify self defense beyond 100 yards.

I think 30-30 is overlooked  these days. When I was younger it was considered adequate to solve most problems with minimal recoil.  Pretty close to 7.62x39. 

My carbine of choice, if semi-auto is not an option, is my Marlin 45-70 SBL. I hand load, so I can go with soft shooting trapdoor loads or up to heavy Marlin loads. To me, it gives more options than the .44 mag. That said, to the OP, rim fire would definitely not be a first choice.

stray round posted:

.357 from a rifle length bbl. gets a real boost and good .38 spl loads get into 357 handgun levels.    

Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I'd like to see a reintroduction of the Savage 99s.  One sized down for handgun cartridges  or 223 length rounds would be  too much to wish for.

While I have not timed it, I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 that is quite handy. After I saw Kit Badger's mods on his I threw mine over to Brockmans Rifles to get some irons installed on it. Sadly after I received it from them I never did receive a single response from multiple attempts in regards to some work for a Ruger M77/357. Sometime this year I aim to get a Marlin 1894 CST and maybe with some friends can do a comparison in terms of speed between the two. 

In regards to this topic I also have two Ruger 10/22s with Magpul backpacker stocks on them. So long as I feed them CCI MiniMags I've never had any issues with them, however I wholeheartedly agree with what's been said here. They're great, but not the ideal primary choice for self-defense. I suppose better than nothing, but I really don't want to bet on rimfire reliability for real life solutions. 

It was possibly posted in another thread regarding the use of rimfire for self-defense here, but here was some sample testing of a variety of rimfire rounds. Nothing NIJ or scientific, but head to head comparisons found one that consistently penetrated on average 12 inches of ballistic gelatin. Not recommending the OP or anyone get this, but it was just interesting to see how the different rounds varied in terms of performance even if limited to gelatin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...11&v=CyR1K92pyq4

stray round posted:

   Another idea, some bolt actions can be cycled quickly with a little practice.  The CZ 527s and the Howa minis can be ran fast  and come in 223 and 7.62x39.   I've never put them on a timer but I think they are faster than the longer stroke levers like the 336 action.

I entered the NZ 2020 IPSC Rifle championships in the manual action rifle category a few weeks ago. There was an interesting mix of rifles and pump actions were well represented.

Results with rifle.

1st had a Troy PAR 

2nd BLR Lever (with Lucky 13 magazine)

3rd Ruger Ranch AR

4th Ruger Ranch AR

I think the rifle type is less important than mindset and taking the time to master it.

 

com cam guy posted:

Theres a Marlin 357 lever at the local shop calling my name hard. 16" barrel, XS rail and sight, large loop, and mimics my 45-70  set up the same way.  It would work well for many problems that need solved. Fast, light, and durable.  That being said, my 18" in 45-70 is what my wife calls the problem solver, as in "It will take care of most problems, and the truck they were driving. 505 Hammerheads out of it have a way of making things change configuration in a rather drastic manor. 

If you want to raise some eyebrows...

Pick up a "decomissioned" or "out of date" vest, put a chicken plate in the carrier and set it up on a clay body or ballistic mannequin.

Hammer the plate one time with a 45/70 or 450 Marlin load from Underwood or Buffalo Bore @50 meters and then take a look at the backface deformation and then picture the effects on a human chest / torso.

That test will give anyone that sees the results pause to consider their mortality.

Btw... I have done this test with an IBA and SAPI as well.

I did it to prove a point to some guys getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan early on who were "not worried" about the "ancient relics" (martini, mauser, enfield, H&H, etc) found all over the country- with ammo.

To say that it took the wind out of their sails- well-- that almost covers it.

I appreciate all the comments; definitely some options out there. 

Fortunately we've gotten a year reprieve from this bill.

Note to self...go get something once the buying frenzy dies down, lay in a stock of ammo, practice, and be a little less concerned the next time a ban is proposed.

Rick R2 posted:

I agree,  my two .45/70 rifles only hold 4(+1), that round was designed to take a horse out from under an enemy soldier over 100 years ago and recovery can be a bit slow.  

My .44 holds 10(+1) and would be my “bump in the night” rifle if semiautos were forbidden.  Unless I lived somewhere that 600 lb predators bumped around in the dark. 

...Walmart..lol

In a feeble attempt to lean back toward the OP, I would imagine a handful of well grouped .22LR rounds would get a person's attention.  I don't know how much difference there would be in using hollow point .22LRs.  In my extremely humble opinion (with a capitol E),  if a guy could gather at least a handful of hits into a relatively small area, me thinks it would get someone's attention.  One or two, not-so-much. But a handful------a fair shade better. 

 Obviously nowhere near as effective as a bigger centerfire round, but way better than nothing.   The lack of recoil would make for quicker/more accurate follow-up shots.  That's got to count for something, huh?

I have a couple of Holosun sights on various AR rigs. I cannot attest to them being duty-worthy, but they appear to be doing quite nicely  for me.  I have dropped one a couple of times, banged them around more than others would probably would, and have had zero "zero" issues.   A short AR platform .22LR with a RDS could be a viable option-------------in very limited cases-------------maybe. A person could rattle off a handful of .22LR rounds right-quick-and-in-a-hurry with minimal noise, recoil, and muzzle rise.  Granted, the receiving end would have less than optimum results, but again, a bunch of them would add up to a considerable amount of drama.  A very important consideration is one would have to be damn-near at bad-breath-distance in order to get whatever effectiveness there is (relatively speaking.)  More than a handful of yards and.....well....things would go from barely good enough to really not good enough.

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David Reeves posted:

It has been said many times before... but.... the .22lr you have with you is better than the .45 that you don't.

David

I was part of two investigations of self defense shootings involving NAA mini revolvers. Both one shot, both stopped the aggression.  One was a fatality, the other an intentional shot in the kneecap that made the attacker decide he badly needed to be elsewhere. 

I remember reading a spy novel years ago where the hero was assisted by a HUMINT type that produced a Baby Browning .25acp and explained that no body wants to get shot so the loud noise of a gun shot was all that was needed. 
Kind of a Biden approach to self defense...

The Mossad team avenging Munich reputedly used .22s in double taps because they gave zero fucks if it took a while for them to die... just so they died. Point blank, 4 to 6 .22s penetrating all kinds of organs meant high probability they would.

Rick R2 posted:

I was part of two investigations of self defense shootings involving NAA mini revolvers. .. the other an intentional shot in the kneecap ...

Unless it was a contact shot, that dude deserves a trophy.  I doubt I could hit the ground with one of those little guns.

I have a lot of respect for the .22rf.   The first person that I knew who was killed was a kid I went to high school with. The daddy didn't want him to be around his daughter and being a dirtbag,  threatened the father and tried to get in the door of  the house.

Daddy put one round in the X-ring with a .22 rifle and the kid made about three steps and fell off the porch dead.    I imagine the girls wasn't asked on a date any time soon thereafter.

Seeing full grown steers hit the ground like a rock from one of those little bullets will make it look like a death ray.

 

Context is important.  Anything is better than nothing and a .22LR still beats a sharp stick most of the time.  Hunting is different than self defense.  Bullet placement is important.  Most of us remember when Guns and Ammo would print those big special magazines on narrow topics.  I remember one about the .22.  One story in particular.  It took place in Kenya during the Mau Mau uprising 1952-1960.  The Mau Maus were attacking white (British) ranches and farmsteads so the police, constabulary and military units were going out to all of the isolated ranches to warn and evacuate the residents.  In this account, they were headed to a ranch house where they knew the wife was normally alone during the day while her husband and sons were out working.  As they approached the house, they found bodies.  9 or 10 dead Mau Mau.  Each of them with a single .22 hole to the forehead.  It seems that  the woman commonly entertained herself after her work was done, by shooting leaves off the trees with her .22LR Colt Woodsman pistol.  Suffice to say, she got pretty good and she headshot the approaching Mau Mau until the survivors decided their magic that turned bullets into water wasn't working and went someplace easier.

The second is personal to a degree.  I grew up in Alaska and every once in awhile, there was a report of dead moose being found in town after being shot with a .22.  That same Guns and Ammo also had a story of an Indian hunter who routinely killed moose and bear with a .22.  He would stalk them carefully, and shoot them through the side, between the ribs.  The story said that he got lung hits, so I have to assume that if he got a rib, he'd take another shot until he saw some foamy blood from the nostrils.  He didn't get quick kills, but eventually the animal would bleed out internally, fall over, and die.  He used a .22 because it didn't make enough noise to annoy them and the wound felt like a sting to them.  Again, context is important.  He didn't shoot a charging animal to defend himself, and these were not quick, humane kills. 

Finally, the same magazine discussed the effectiveness of the .22 bullet.  Take it for what it's worth, but they said that .22 should not be underrated because the bullet did unexpected things.  It would bounce off bones and change direction.  The long, soft bullet would bend when it glanced off, and a shot to the chest could exit near the hip, hitting lots of stuff on the way.  With regards to the aforementioned Israeli kills, velocity from a short barreled pistol would usually get through the skull, but not through the other side.  So there could be some internal ricochet brain damage.

I have a  professional relationship and friendship with a former LAPD SWAT Officer at the SLA shootout, Intel LT  for LA Olympics later a METRO Platoon LT,  ended up a Dep. Chief and never forgot his roots. 

At one point he taught an anti-terrorism course with IACP.  I was at his course in Silver Springs, MD.  While I suspect he had something more effective along on the trip, he had an NAA five shot .22 in his checked baggage.  At Wash National Airport, after getting his bag, he uploaded the little shooter.  Got a cab and headed north. At a deserted spot along the Potomac, the FN driver pulled over and asked him is he had the cash for the ride. He responded yes.  The guy (no good at reading the body language that said don't fuck with me) asked if he had any more cash and flashed a knife . 

He pulled the NAA 5 shot .22 into the guys ear and said take him to the hotel.  Short of the destination, it occurred to him that this could go wrong. So he paid  asshole cab driver the meter, had him write him a receipt for the ride, got out and walked the last blocks.   Dumb shit never knew how close he was to being dead. 

Any gun beats just harsh language. Rule 1. 

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Israelis like their .22s. Several stories here: https://www.tactical-life.com/...raeli-mossad-22-lrs/ But I like this set (wordily described and spread out): 

One of the most famous incidents involving the use of a .22 caliber Beretta 70 “Jaguar” pistol occurred in February of 1969. After the 1968 hijacking of an El Al airliner by Palestinian terrorists, the Israeli government decided to dramatically increase aviation security by placing sky marshals on board. Eventually, the decision was made to place armed veteran Israeli soldiers aboard El Al aircraft. This Israeli sky marshal program was top secret and never publicized.

beretta2.jpgDuring the incident that took place in February of 1969, Israeli Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim engaged several heavily armed Arab terrorists as they attacked an EL Al airliner on a snow covered runway in Zurich. Despite the odds against him, the young Israeli sky marshal expertly used his issued Beretta Model 70 pistol to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists, moments before the Zurich Police arrived and took the remaining terrorists into custody. The three surviving male Palestinian terrorists received 12-year jail sentences for attacking a commercial airliner with machine guns and explosives that resulted in the killing and wounding of several passengers and crew. Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim became an instant hero at home in Israel.

Rachamim told the author that during this engagement at least two of the rounds fired from his Model 70 hit the mark and were responsible for one of the male terrorists being KIA—pretty good shooting, considering that Rachamim single-handedly charged the enemy position while he emptied his .22 caliber pistol at the heavily armed terrorists. Even though Israeli Sky Marshal Rachamim was only armed with a .22, far too much was at stake for him to miss his target. Failure was not on option.

In May of 1972, Rachamim participated in another daring and equally dangerous tactical operation involving aviation security when he and other members of Israel’s elite Sayert Matkal commando unit rescued passengers and crewmembers onboard a hijacked Sabena Airline flight at Lod Airport (now, Ben-Gurion) in Tel Aviv. At the time, this unit was under the command of Ehud Barak, a future Prime Minister of Israel.

Effective, Compact Tools
During this operation, Rachamim and other Israeli commandos assigned to Sayeret Matkal disguised themselves as airline mechanics before storming the hijacked Belgian airliner. As the signal to move was given, Rachamim once again used his issued Model 70 to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists. A second male Palestinian terrorist was also gunned down.

Once again the Israeli sky marshals and Sayert Matkal commandos proved that you do not necessarily need to be heavily armed with sub-machine guns and major-caliber pistols to stop terrorists and criminals. Just like David killed Goliath with a slingshot and a small rock, the Israelis in more modern times used .22s to eliminate a different type of monster from the field of battle.

beretta.jpgRanhamim recently advised Tactical Weapons that during the commando raid on the Sabena Airline jet in 1972, he carried two spare magazines for his issued Beretta. After drawing his pistol and racking the slide, Rachamim recalls charging at one of the male terrorists while he “stabbed” his pistol out in front of him toward his target as he “released rounds.” As he fired his pistol, Rachamim remembered being close enough to see some of his bullets hit the mark. The sight of blood draining from the dead hijacker’s mouth confirmed that the terrorist that he engaged inside the crowded cabin would no longer pose a threat.

I carried that exact same pistol in the Military 32 years ago, along with an Uzi. Couldn't always tote the Uzi due to circumstances, but always had the Beretta with me.

I also had a suppressed version that was modified so that the safety kept the slide locked shut when firing, and was manually cycled, and with subs, it was exceptionally quiet, like Hollywood quiet.

Regards.

Mark

Based on the number of failures to fire of .22 ammo I have experienced,  I would be hard pressed to carry a .22 for self defense.   QC varies by manufacturer of course, but even CCI has given me enough failures (2 I think) to make me uncomfortable.     I would be curious to hear what ammo is used for any “professional applications”.     (Thunderbolts.... anyone anyone???)

I have fired bricks upon bricks of Eley over the years, and NEVER had a single fail-to-fire.  Granted a brick of .22lr Eley cost as much as a box of good defense 9mm.........

Bill, Idaho posted:

I have fired bricks upon bricks of Eley over the years, and NEVER had a single fail-to-fire.  Granted a brick of .22lr Eley cost as much as a box of good defense 9mm.........

I have the same experience with Eley and the Aguilla 60grain subsonics. 

I couldn't even begin to total up the number of bricks between the two...

I just has a DOA. Attempted assault and robbery of a 65y/o F. She had some sort of short barreled revolver. First load was snake/bird shot the rest were FMJ.

She said she carried it this way to initially wound/deter anyone or thing, and if they kept coming she'd unload the rest. Her attacker, 6ft 200lb meathead on something. Snake shot took him in the face (R eye was a mess) but nothing penetrated deep. The rest were throat, nasal cavity, R eye and above the R eyebrow (traveled under the skin but over the skull and lodged at the base of his skull), fifth shot was a miss. No exit wounds so I am sure those little rounds bounced around. Guy was deader than shit and messed up. Initial shot was from about five feet. the rest were around ten to twelve.

Moral, anything is better than nothing and 22lr kills a lot of things/people. This dude didn't even have agonal respirations.

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