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I have a couple of Holosun sights on various AR rigs. I cannot attest to them being duty-worthy, but they appear to be doing quite nicely  for me.  I have dropped one a couple of times, banged them around more than others would probably would, and have had zero "zero" issues.   A short AR platform .22LR with a RDS could be a viable option-------------in very limited cases-------------maybe. A person could rattle off a handful of .22LR rounds right-quick-and-in-a-hurry with minimal noise, recoil, and muzzle rise.  Granted, the receiving end would have less than optimum results, but again, a bunch of them would add up to a considerable amount of drama.  A very important consideration is one would have to be damn-near at bad-breath-distance in order to get whatever effectiveness there is (relatively speaking.)  More than a handful of yards and.....well....things would go from barely good enough to really not good enough.

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David Reeves posted:

It has been said many times before... but.... the .22lr you have with you is better than the .45 that you don't.


I was part of two investigations of self defense shootings involving NAA mini revolvers. Both one shot, both stopped the aggression.  One was a fatality, the other an intentional shot in the kneecap that made the attacker decide he badly needed to be elsewhere. 

I remember reading a spy novel years ago where the hero was assisted by a HUMINT type that produced a Baby Browning .25acp and explained that no body wants to get shot so the loud noise of a gun shot was all that was needed. 
Kind of a Biden approach to self defense...

Rick R2 posted:

I was part of two investigations of self defense shootings involving NAA mini revolvers. .. the other an intentional shot in the kneecap ...

Unless it was a contact shot, that dude deserves a trophy.  I doubt I could hit the ground with one of those little guns.

I have a lot of respect for the .22rf.   The first person that I knew who was killed was a kid I went to high school with. The daddy didn't want him to be around his daughter and being a dirtbag,  threatened the father and tried to get in the door of  the house.

Daddy put one round in the X-ring with a .22 rifle and the kid made about three steps and fell off the porch dead.    I imagine the girls wasn't asked on a date any time soon thereafter.

Seeing full grown steers hit the ground like a rock from one of those little bullets will make it look like a death ray.


Context is important.  Anything is better than nothing and a .22LR still beats a sharp stick most of the time.  Hunting is different than self defense.  Bullet placement is important.  Most of us remember when Guns and Ammo would print those big special magazines on narrow topics.  I remember one about the .22.  One story in particular.  It took place in Kenya during the Mau Mau uprising 1952-1960.  The Mau Maus were attacking white (British) ranches and farmsteads so the police, constabulary and military units were going out to all of the isolated ranches to warn and evacuate the residents.  In this account, they were headed to a ranch house where they knew the wife was normally alone during the day while her husband and sons were out working.  As they approached the house, they found bodies.  9 or 10 dead Mau Mau.  Each of them with a single .22 hole to the forehead.  It seems that  the woman commonly entertained herself after her work was done, by shooting leaves off the trees with her .22LR Colt Woodsman pistol.  Suffice to say, she got pretty good and she headshot the approaching Mau Mau until the survivors decided their magic that turned bullets into water wasn't working and went someplace easier.

The second is personal to a degree.  I grew up in Alaska and every once in awhile, there was a report of dead moose being found in town after being shot with a .22.  That same Guns and Ammo also had a story of an Indian hunter who routinely killed moose and bear with a .22.  He would stalk them carefully, and shoot them through the side, between the ribs.  The story said that he got lung hits, so I have to assume that if he got a rib, he'd take another shot until he saw some foamy blood from the nostrils.  He didn't get quick kills, but eventually the animal would bleed out internally, fall over, and die.  He used a .22 because it didn't make enough noise to annoy them and the wound felt like a sting to them.  Again, context is important.  He didn't shoot a charging animal to defend himself, and these were not quick, humane kills. 

Finally, the same magazine discussed the effectiveness of the .22 bullet.  Take it for what it's worth, but they said that .22 should not be underrated because the bullet did unexpected things.  It would bounce off bones and change direction.  The long, soft bullet would bend when it glanced off, and a shot to the chest could exit near the hip, hitting lots of stuff on the way.  With regards to the aforementioned Israeli kills, velocity from a short barreled pistol would usually get through the skull, but not through the other side.  So there could be some internal ricochet brain damage.

I have a  professional relationship and friendship with a former LAPD SWAT Officer at the SLA shootout, Intel LT  for LA Olympics later a METRO Platoon LT,  ended up a Dep. Chief and never forgot his roots. 

At one point he taught an anti-terrorism course with IACP.  I was at his course in Silver Springs, MD.  While I suspect he had something more effective along on the trip, he had an NAA five shot .22 in his checked baggage.  At Wash National Airport, after getting his bag, he uploaded the little shooter.  Got a cab and headed north. At a deserted spot along the Potomac, the FN driver pulled over and asked him is he had the cash for the ride. He responded yes.  The guy (no good at reading the body language that said don't fuck with me) asked if he had any more cash and flashed a knife . 

He pulled the NAA 5 shot .22 into the guys ear and said take him to the hotel.  Short of the destination, it occurred to him that this could go wrong. So he paid  asshole cab driver the meter, had him write him a receipt for the ride, got out and walked the last blocks.   Dumb shit never knew how close he was to being dead. 

Any gun beats just harsh language. Rule 1. 

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Israelis like their .22s. Several stories here: But I like this set (wordily described and spread out): 

One of the most famous incidents involving the use of a .22 caliber Beretta 70 “Jaguar” pistol occurred in February of 1969. After the 1968 hijacking of an El Al airliner by Palestinian terrorists, the Israeli government decided to dramatically increase aviation security by placing sky marshals on board. Eventually, the decision was made to place armed veteran Israeli soldiers aboard El Al aircraft. This Israeli sky marshal program was top secret and never publicized.

beretta2.jpgDuring the incident that took place in February of 1969, Israeli Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim engaged several heavily armed Arab terrorists as they attacked an EL Al airliner on a snow covered runway in Zurich. Despite the odds against him, the young Israeli sky marshal expertly used his issued Beretta Model 70 pistol to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists, moments before the Zurich Police arrived and took the remaining terrorists into custody. The three surviving male Palestinian terrorists received 12-year jail sentences for attacking a commercial airliner with machine guns and explosives that resulted in the killing and wounding of several passengers and crew. Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim became an instant hero at home in Israel.

Rachamim told the author that during this engagement at least two of the rounds fired from his Model 70 hit the mark and were responsible for one of the male terrorists being KIA—pretty good shooting, considering that Rachamim single-handedly charged the enemy position while he emptied his .22 caliber pistol at the heavily armed terrorists. Even though Israeli Sky Marshal Rachamim was only armed with a .22, far too much was at stake for him to miss his target. Failure was not on option.

In May of 1972, Rachamim participated in another daring and equally dangerous tactical operation involving aviation security when he and other members of Israel’s elite Sayert Matkal commando unit rescued passengers and crewmembers onboard a hijacked Sabena Airline flight at Lod Airport (now, Ben-Gurion) in Tel Aviv. At the time, this unit was under the command of Ehud Barak, a future Prime Minister of Israel.

Effective, Compact Tools
During this operation, Rachamim and other Israeli commandos assigned to Sayeret Matkal disguised themselves as airline mechanics before storming the hijacked Belgian airliner. As the signal to move was given, Rachamim once again used his issued Model 70 to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists. A second male Palestinian terrorist was also gunned down.

Once again the Israeli sky marshals and Sayert Matkal commandos proved that you do not necessarily need to be heavily armed with sub-machine guns and major-caliber pistols to stop terrorists and criminals. Just like David killed Goliath with a slingshot and a small rock, the Israelis in more modern times used .22s to eliminate a different type of monster from the field of battle.

beretta.jpgRanhamim recently advised Tactical Weapons that during the commando raid on the Sabena Airline jet in 1972, he carried two spare magazines for his issued Beretta. After drawing his pistol and racking the slide, Rachamim recalls charging at one of the male terrorists while he “stabbed” his pistol out in front of him toward his target as he “released rounds.” As he fired his pistol, Rachamim remembered being close enough to see some of his bullets hit the mark. The sight of blood draining from the dead hijacker’s mouth confirmed that the terrorist that he engaged inside the crowded cabin would no longer pose a threat.

I carried that exact same pistol in the Military 32 years ago, along with an Uzi. Couldn't always tote the Uzi due to circumstances, but always had the Beretta with me.

I also had a suppressed version that was modified so that the safety kept the slide locked shut when firing, and was manually cycled, and with subs, it was exceptionally quiet, like Hollywood quiet.



Based on the number of failures to fire of .22 ammo I have experienced,  I would be hard pressed to carry a .22 for self defense.   QC varies by manufacturer of course, but even CCI has given me enough failures (2 I think) to make me uncomfortable.     I would be curious to hear what ammo is used for any “professional applications”.     (Thunderbolts.... anyone anyone???)

I just has a DOA. Attempted assault and robbery of a 65y/o F. She had some sort of short barreled revolver. First load was snake/bird shot the rest were FMJ.

She said she carried it this way to initially wound/deter anyone or thing, and if they kept coming she'd unload the rest. Her attacker, 6ft 200lb meathead on something. Snake shot took him in the face (R eye was a mess) but nothing penetrated deep. The rest were throat, nasal cavity, R eye and above the R eyebrow (traveled under the skin but over the skull and lodged at the base of his skull), fifth shot was a miss. No exit wounds so I am sure those little rounds bounced around. Guy was deader than shit and messed up. Initial shot was from about five feet. the rest were around ten to twelve.

Moral, anything is better than nothing and 22lr kills a lot of things/people. This dude didn't even have agonal respirations.

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