It seems our issue Glocks are nearing the end of their service life.  I was selected, along with about 60 others, to participate in the evaluation.  It's not anything scientific, it's basically spending whatever time you wish shooting them, then completing an evaluation.  The cross section of Officers is diverse, intentionally.  I expect it's going to be a circus full of wild monkeys, and I am gleefully looking forward to it. 

**Drum roll**

We will be evaluating the Glock model 45, the Sig P320, the S&W M&P, and the FNH 509, all in 9mm.  Additionally, we will be evaluating the DeltaPoint, Aimpoint ACRO, and the Romeo 1 Pro RDS.

I deliberately scheduled my date for 1/28/20, as I intend to do a lot of research and ask a lot of questions while at SHOT Show, then I can come into the evaluation educated.

Either way, I am looking forward to a full day, or two, of shooting for free (actually, while getting paid), and finger-effing guns.  A complete win situation.

Input is welcome.

 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

Original Post

You could explore the chances of getting Glock to sell you the CBP versions of the 19 and 17.  That will give you the option to configure the guns as a 17, 19, 19L, or 45.  

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai posted:

You could explore the chances of getting Glock to sell you the CBP versions of the 19 and 17.  That will give you the option to configure the guns as a 17, 19, 19L, or 45.  

Right?  But, that probably isn't going to happen...   This evaluation is basically going to be a gauge of how people like the platforms.  My personal feelings on what will happen?  SPD will go with whichever one offers the best sweetheart deal. 

I wish they would just authorize a selection of guns, and let us choose our preference.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

DirtySanchez posted:
Dorsai posted:

You could explore the chances of getting Glock to sell you the CBP versions of the 19 and 17.  That will give you the option to configure the guns as a 17, 19, 19L, or 45.  

...I wish they would just authorize a selection of guns, and let us choose our preference.

I agree, but cop admins are gonna cop admin.  If I was in charge of a Department-wide issue program, I’d look at what CBP went with.  But we don’t issue; we own, which is not without its own headaches.

Sanchez, how does your department handle sidearms?  Is it a combination of issue and optional purchases, or one or the other?

Have fun at SHOT, and good luck with the process; my team is doing an “upgrade”process right now, too.

Things you don’t hear in the private sector: “Damn.  I left my tea mug in the armory.”

Bill, Idaho posted:

By "completing an evaluation" do you mean they are going to give you some type of criteria or categories in which you are to give your opinion of each item?  Specific tests?  

It is my understanding that...no.  Actually, there is a form we are to complete, but of course they didn't give it to us ahead of time.  Information flow has been very limited.  Pretty standard, especially when it comes to firearms stuff...

 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

Chameleox posted:
DirtySanchez posted:
Dorsai posted:

You could explore the chances of getting Glock to sell you the CBP versions of the 19 and 17.  That will give you the option to configure the guns as a 17, 19, 19L, or 45.  

...I wish they would just authorize a selection of guns, and let us choose our preference.

I agree, but cop admins are gonna cop admin.  If I was in charge of a Department-wide issue program, I’d look at what CBP went with.  But we don’t issue; we own, which is not without its own headaches.

Sanchez, how does your department handle sidearms?  Is it a combination of issue and optional purchases, or one or the other?

Have fun at SHOT, and good luck with the process; my team is doing an “upgrade”process right now, too.

Issued.  Currently, it is a variety of Glock sizes, and choice of .45, .40, or 9mm.  I carry a G17.  Some of the older Officers are grandfathered from the old revolver days when you could carry an issued wheel gun (VERY wide range on what you got) or you could buy your own semi-auto.  Most of us now have issued Glocks.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

What's wrong with the Gen4 G17 and G19's they're issuing now? I was hoping if they were going to "upgrade" it'd just be to the Gen5's. At least they're all 9mm, I still know a guy that carries a G22 in West Precinct (his BUG is a G27 and he likes the idea of using his primary mags for reloads). 

I'm at the (hopefully) tail end of the hiring process of SPD, so I kinda have skin in the game. 

PRAISE THE FALLEN

SSG Kevin Roberts KIA 7-May-08         SPC Peter Courcy KIA 10-Feb-09

1Lt Nick Dewhirst KIA 20-July-08          PFC Jason Watson KIA 10-Feb-09

CPL Charles Gaffney KIA 24-Dec-08

 

Joined: 2/21/04          Location: Seattle,  WA

kaltesherz posted:

What's wrong with the Gen4 G17 and G19's they're issuing now? I was hoping if they were going to "upgrade" it'd just be to the Gen5's. At least they're all 9mm, I still know a guy that carries a G22 in West Precinct (his BUG is a G27 and he likes the idea of using his primary mags for reloads). 

I'm at the (hopefully) tail end of the hiring process of SPD, so I kinda have skin in the game. 

I honestly don't know, other than approaching service life end as per what SPD may have assigned them.  We had our previous G22s for a loooooong time before they replaced them.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

So, the Glocks are at the end of their service life?

You guys must be doing a whole lotta shooting in your weapons quals, what like 50,000 per years worth?

I only shoot about 1-1,500 rnds a month, I gotta step up my A game...

 

All joking aside, they just want a shiny new toy to justify the budget? Could you keep the current weapons and roll the money saved onto the training budget and bonuses for officers who exceed the required minimum standards?

Sorry for dreaming out loud.

Location: in SE Idaho, the birthplace of television.  And Epstein didn't kill himself...

M. Wilson posted:

So, the Glocks are at the end of their service life?

You guys must be doing a whole lotta shooting in your weapons quals, what like 50,000 per years worth?

I only shoot about 1-1,500 rnds a month, I gotta step up my A game...

 

All joking aside, they just want a shiny new toy to justify the budget? Could you keep the current weapons and roll the money saved onto the training budget and bonuses for officers who exceed the required minimum standards?

Sorry for dreaming out loud.

That is what has been said....  I thought the same as you.   No way our round count is that high.

I think that they are looking at the next step.  I have heard talk about RDS s being looked at pretty hard. 

My thought?  Unless there is some package sweetie deal, a couple RDS will be "authorized" for purchase, just like our handgun lights are.  I also believe it is a mistake to move away from Glocks.  The Officers are used to them, and since we always have to take into consideration the lowest common denominator, well, you know.  It is an easy platform for lazy Officers to be competent-ish with.  And, it is a very reliable platform.  I can't really beef about it, other than some personal preferences.

I'm going to have a lot of fun doing this. 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

Sanchez, I know how you feel about the FBI but their BRF has a slide deck on pistols, mostly Glocks, and the service life of various components. It’ll show how the Gen5 came to exist and why it is the most durable for lack of a better word handgun available today. The MRBF figures on it are significant, even/specifically compared to 40 caliber Glocks.  Not sure your role encompasses any analysis but I hope someone seeks that sort of information. 

RyanScott posted:

Sanchez, I know how you feel about the FBI but their BRF has a slide deck on pistols, mostly Glocks, and the service life of various components. It’ll show how the Gen5 came to exist and why it is the most durable for lack of a better word handgun available today. The MRBF figures on it are significant, even/specifically compared to 40 caliber Glocks.  Not sure your role encompasses any analysis but I hope someone seeks that sort of information. 

When it comes to that type of analysis, the FBI is at the top of the heap.  At my old agency, I relied on their research for ammunition choices, etc.

This isn't really a technical analysis, more of a solicitation of feels from the end users, and who likes what, and why.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

DirtySanchez posted:

...We will be evaluating the Glock model 45, the Sig P320, the S&W M&P, and the FNH 509, all in 9mm.  Additionally, we will be evaluating the DeltaPoint, Aimpoint ACRO, and the Romeo 1 Pro RDS.

…. 

My agency completed an assessment of many of the same pistols last year or so, taking into consideration platform maturity, reliability, OEM support/customer service, and aftermarket/accessory support. (the 509 was highly regarded by some 'shooters', but finding holsters at the time was challenging; not sure if changed since...?)  Anything was going to be a move away from our current issued platform (DA/SA), and expected pricing for our quantities was all in same ballpark.

In the end, what we saw and experienced in durability testing echoed the FBI and others - the Glock Gen5 was tough to beat.  I think we put a ~10k rounds apiece thru 6 pistols (3x 19, 3x 17)... MRBF was hard to ignore (1 malf - that we couldn't attribute to shooter - across the 60k rounds).  Bonus that Glock already offers a full suite of factory Simunition, UTM, and inert (ie great for classroom and DT) variants.  No need for conversion kits or armorer magic.

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"Of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there; Eighty are nothing but targets; Nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them... They make the battle. Ah; but One; One of them is a Warrior... And he will bring the others back." - Heraclitus (Circa 500 B.C.)

 

Joined:  6/10/09          Location:  WDC area  (most of the time...)

 

I think all of the pistols listed were submitted to our selection process. The 320 and the Glock were the 2 finalists. The Glock is what we ended up choosing...the Gen 5’s I bought personally seem to be good shooters and probably the best choice for us as an Agency. You guys may be able to reach out and get some data about all of the pistols you’re considering, may save some time & $...

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

Dirty...

question for you,

 

your PD webpage shows a list of authorized manufacturers and calibers is: Beretta, SIG, SW etc

is this just for veteran officers or are lateral hires able to chooses from the list?

Thanks

GP

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

Optics wise I would only usa a Trijicon RMr Gen 2. The others would be ok for hobby guns. Aaron Cowen of Sage Dynamics has a very informative white paper on pistol mounted optics. He even document Optics that failed and at what round count. His you tube channel has a great torture test of the trijicon rmr ymmv

Totally off topic, but I will do it anyway.

Were you personally involved in that gang shooting at 3rd and Pine on Wednesday?  Trying to find the shooters in that crowd with a buttload of people who each saw a different thing, must have been damned hard.

I will say this. I have been through this process recently. Narrow your choice to Glock 45 and M&P 2.0. Both are solid. I would not touch the other two for a number of good organizational reasons. Personal purchase? Sure. Organizational? Forget it.

The M&P 2.0 is a totally different pistol from the legacy M&P. If you have a prior opinion on M&P stow it until after you shoot the 2.0. It is completely different. S&W should have named it something else. The only parts which interchange BTW legacy M&P and M&P 2.0 are the sights, recoil spring and grips. The M&P 2.0 CORE is available to LE only at this time. Ours came in the other day.

As an aside the CBP pistol is not available outside CBP. I chased that pretty hard up through Glock company leadership when we looked at new pistols. Glock is not budging. CBP only at least until that contract is filled.

Why is RMR06 not on the list of possible optics?

I wouldn’t worry about trying to get the G47...it’s just a G45MOS with a 1/3”ish  longer barrel/slide (17 length). I wish we would’ve just did the G19&45MOS as it would have made issuing holsters simpler. 

Joined: 13AUG2010        

Location: Southern Arizona 

DirtySanchez posted:
M. Wilson posted:

So, the Glocks are at the end of their service life?

 

All joking aside, they just want a shiny new toy to justify the budget? 

Sorry for dreaming out loud.

That is what has been said....  I thought the same as you.   No way our round count is that high.

I think that they are looking at the next step.  I have heard talk about RDS s being looked at pretty hard. 

When you are the armorer or a fly on the wall in the weapons section, you find that "worn out" really is a thing, even if round counts are low by gunfighter standards.

One thing that comes up is how often armorers are seeing certain common breakages. At some point, the risk of having a bad pistol out in the fleet becomes great enough to justify buying new. Our M&P .40 fleet was probably in the 5-6k range. We started to see cracked frames, and little incidental parts failures at around the 10 year mark, and they seemed to be accelerating by the 13 year mark. The cracked frames are likely .40 related. But the other breakages were inexplicable.
Somehow putting a fleet of guns on the street with indifferent, infrequent, and variable maintenance is just hard on guns in a way that merely shooting them is not.

I am not dogging any brand, the reality is that service weapons (like magazines) are ultimately serial numbered disposable wear items. Don't get attached, buy in bulk and DX/toss as needed.

I have a personally owned G45 and love it. We are using G21s at work right now and I plan to push G45 to admin soon. I lead the range/firearms staff but they (admin) do not like change. 

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. You will meet them doing various things with resolve, but their interest rarely holds because after the other thing ordinary life is as flat as the taste of wine when the taste buds have been burned off your tongue." -Ernest Hemingway

Check out the blackhawk T series...developed by some pretty serious guys, and actually done right by Blackhawk and made in America.  Most intuitive and natural draw ive ever seen from a level 2/3 holster.

"I'll try means I'll fail, you either can or you can't, and can't never got anything done".

M. Wilson posted:

So, the Glocks are at the end of their service life?

You guys must be doing a whole lotta shooting in your weapons quals, what like 50,000 per years worth?

I only shoot about 1-1,500 rnds a month, I gotta step up my A game...

 

All joking aside, they just want a shiny new toy to justify the budget? Could you keep the current weapons and roll the money saved onto the training budget and bonuses for officers who exceed the required minimum standards?

Sorry for dreaming out loud.

No.  LE guns get beat up in ways you could never imagine.  The right side of every grip on every right-handed officer looks like shit, obverse for wrong0handed, sinstral-types.  If your agency is good at armorer stuff, guns can last 10-15 years.  If not, it's cheaper to trade them in and get new ones.  Having me change out the springs and inspect the extractor, plus change out the mag springs, is more expensive than trading in the old glocks for $300 apiece and buying new glocks for $420.  Also, uniform holsters and magazine pouches last, at most, five years on patrol.  So, it is better, and cheaper for the taxpayers, to trade out guns and duty gear every five years, for about $300 per officer, rather paying a cop armorer to update used pistols.  Most of the cops buy their old duty pistols and it's a win-win.

Not directed at you Dirty.

I’m no fan of Glock as a corporation, but it doesn’t make sense for the agency to try to spend the resources into finding the next best pistol since it realistically (considering you already have Glocks, parts, armorers, Sims, magazines, pouches, holsters, aftermarket support, member familiarity and proficiency) exists in the next generation of Glocks. I can’t imagine they aren’t willing to “upgrade” your inventory since your agency has a lot of leverage.

Collecting data points when there’s a disagreement on which direction to go may be your only solution, but it’s going to take resources and time better spent on other priorities (training) or narrowing what will help the agency as a whole (which rdo to authorize) rather then someone’s agenda other than Glock.

If the agency really has the resources and believes they will discover a platform that universally makes everyone distinctly better, then put me on the list to drink some of the koolaid. 

Some objective testing based on timed live fire or reliability would be better then any rating based on evaluations from subjective shooters.

My teeth were clenched the entire time typing this out from past experience (mostly from my inexperience). Have fun in Vegas and enjoy being paid to shoot!

 

 

Bart Noir posted:

Totally off topic, but I will do it anyway.

Were you personally involved in that gang shooting at 3rd and Pine on Wednesday?  Trying to find the shooters in that crowd with a buttload of people who each saw a different thing, must have been damned hard.

No, I was in Vegas.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

arcticlightfighter posted:

Dirty...

question for you,

 

your PD webpage shows a list of authorized manufacturers and calibers is: Beretta, SIG, SW etc

is this just for veteran officers or are lateral hires able to chooses from the list?

Thanks

GP

That is a holdover for grandfathering.  When SPD issued revolvers, Officers could buy their own semi-auto, if they wanted.  Then, when SPD began issuing Glocks, the old guns were grandfathered.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

I got a lot of good information at SHOT.  I'll be actually shooting these guns on Tuesday at our range.

I will say, I don't like what I felt on the FN trigger.  The reset was far too long.  Duty holsters for an FN will be a problem, and their rep agreed.  I do like the grip on the FN, and I think a lot of Officers with smaller hands will, too.  FNs RDS mounting system seems to be well thought out.

Sig, I really hate the grip.  The trigger wasn't the best, either. 

M&P, good gun.

Glock, it's a Glock, same as before, with just a couple differences, like the ambi slide release.

I think we are going to have a lot of opinions on this thing.  I think Glock has the edge, since they have been issued since the late 80s.  Plus, all of our UTM stuff is for Glocks.  And we have a lot of it.

A side note, I sought out and looked at the Alien Gear duty holster.  It caught my attention after watching a video of it.  It meets all of the criteria for my agency, such as securing the pistol with light attached and not attached.  It is RDS compatible.  The bail is spring loaded and moves similar to the G-Code bail.  The material feels like the hard material Serpas are made of, but the rep said it is proprietary, and explained some of the testing it went through.  It appears to be a robust holster, and I made arrangements for us to get some for testing.  I've never owned an Alien gear holster.  RDS compatible duty holsters are behind the curve right now, and it appears that Alien gear has surged forward on this.  I'm curious to see how it turns out.

 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

DirtySanchez posted:

 

A side note, I sought out and looked at the Alien Gear duty holster.  It caught my attention after watching a video of it.  It meets all of the criteria for my agency, such as securing the pistol with light attached and not attached.  It is RDS compatible.  The bail is spring loaded and moves similar to the G-Code bail.  The material feels like the hard material Serpas are made of, but the rep said it is proprietary, and explained some of the testing it went through.  It appears to be a robust holster, and I made arrangements for us to get some for testing.  I've never owned an Alien gear holster.  RDS compatible duty holsters are behind the curve right now, and it appears that Alien gear has surged forward on this.  I'm curious to see how it turns out.

 

Alien Gear is local to my agency; we have two holsters for T&E currently.  We intend to buy ten+ of them to give to the kids headed to the academy next month to see if we can ring them out.  They do look promising, and I'll keep y'all updated on the findings.  

Interested to see what the top choice is as well as RMR T&R 

A Gen 5 17/19 with RMR would be an excellent choice for a large PD that already issues GLOCK. 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

I asked a bunch of questions at SHOT with the LE reps for the guns.  The RDS, not so much.  I shot the guns this past week at our range, with the exception of the FN, as we didn't have it yet.

Admittedly, I went into it a bit cringy about the Sig.  By the time I was done, my opinion had changed.

M&P was the Core 2.0.  Nice overall, but, oddly, the felt recoil was more than I expected.  Most officers gave it high marks.

G45 MOS was, well, a Glock.  The trigger was the best Glock factory trigger I have experienced, crisp reset and break.  I really liked it.  The full size frame and compact size slide really was not that huge of a change, or really noticeable.  The ambi slide stop/release is new, but still not really a big deal, as it is still about the same low profile, and being a lefty, I have adapted to using strictly right handed guns. A Glock is a Glock is a Glock.  Meh.  The average shooter officers like it because it is what they know.

Sig P320 Pro.  Our sample had the full size, small grip size frame, full length slide, flat trigger.  The trigger will take some training time to get used to, but I liked it.   I was very happy with it, overall.  I am pretty consistent with my shooting, and my groups with the Sig were  about 1/3 smaller than with the other two.  I haven't used any Sigs since 2005, and I had forgotten how easy they are to shoot accurately.  The 320 is very friendly, and I was impressed.  About my only complaint is the magazines need more witness holes.

I had forgotten just how much the Glock feels like a brick in your hand, until I shot it side by side with guns that are actually ergonomic.  It was glaringly more uncomfortable.  If I had been told to choose one, and leave with it (with no other metrics), I would have chosen the Sig. 

I also shot the Sig Romeo 2 and the Aimpoint ACRO.  This was my first hands on with RDS, and I don't feel comfortable giving any input about them without much more extensive training.  They left out the DP Pro, saying the new Romeo 2 is basically the same, only beefier.

Personally, I think the Sig will appeal more to the diverse sizes/shapes of Officers simply due to the modularity.  But, it's all going to boil down to money.  Our UTM program is set up for Glocks.  Switching may get spendy, as we use the UTM system extensively.  I'm pretty sure that will be a factor.

Nobody has any idea of what direction this will go.  Regardless, whatever we get will be my last issued duty gun, as I plan to retire in a little over 5 years.

 

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

DirtySanchez

Your friends across the lake in Bellevue seem to like their P320 Pro 

Apparently they issue it with the Romeo MRDS and tac light although the SIG Romeo MRDS seems to be an abysmal failure and not even close to a duty grade optic so I’m sure they have plenty on hand for replacements 

not a whole lot compares to the Trij RMR 

I would imagine your PD would be more inclined to stick with GLOCK for all the reasons already stated 

 

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

“Go as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and then quit.”

 

Joined: October 2, 2007

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