Self Defense Game Changer?

This caught my eye from SHOT 2019.  Those are some BIG bullets they're pushing around.  Granted, sub sonic velocity, but if what they're saying about ballistic gel Penetration is correct, definitely Game changing rounds.  I would love to hear what DocGKR has to say about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1xY2-C0BM


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

Original Post

I think waiting for Doc to have the chance to wring these out and write up the results is a good plan. 

I would imagine his ballistics testing lineup gets pretty deep every year after SHOT though. 

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

What is old becomes new again.  There was the 38spl Police with a 200gr and a Webley  38 Super Police with a 200 gr. 

Interested to see DocGKR's results  and a lot of rounds go down range but until then I see a trick bullet with a trick casing coupled with the possibility of too deep a penetration when it doesn't expand.

Everyone has good ideas until it is tried for real.

 

 

And don't forget..

Once a break thru is made, there will be a hue-and-cry for its banning.

Remember the Black Talon (which was a decent product mixed with a bit of marketing genius albeit at the wrong time..) 

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

Yeah, I'm waiting for Doc. Or not. Why? These are the questions I asked multiple vendors in my former life in procuring weapons and ammo for my agency. These same questions apply to the individual end user as well:

1. What does this do that my current round doesnt?

2. What us your production capacity?

3. What is s your delivery time?

4. What is your QC?

5. Who are your backers?

I also would make this comment: In order for me to consider your product, it has to perform exactly like my current issue at a significantly lower price, with the same availability OR it has to be truly revolutionary and outperform everything else available by every known metric. The problem with these new ammo start ups and their claims is that until the sci-fi recoiless plasma blaster is a reality, we are pretty much there as far as the metallic cartridge is concerned. I can't recall all of the "innovative/revolutionary/game changer ammo guys that have come and gone over the years long on promise and short on delivery. Dude may have a Ph.D. and be super smart, but he used the old "knockdown power" saw, which is contrary to the laws of physics. Whenever an ammo maker uses that terminology, they lose me. From the performance they described, I'm not seeing or hearing anything better than my current carry ammo. 

Another mini peeve I'm going to rant about (and I used to be guilty as hell of it) is the "I'm going to T&E it" Really? Are you HP White Labs or a trained scientist? I'm not, not even in my imagination. Do I want to shoot it/try it? Yes. Do I want to see gel shoots (with properly calibrated BG, not clear gel/water jugs/soaked phone books)? Yes. Am I going to base my decision solely on what I see and do? Hell no. I'm going to read the scientific data compiled by wound ballistcians, engineers, and physicists who've forgotten more about the subject than I'll ever know, and who conducted their testing  in  controlled labs with precision instruments.

Don't know of the guy who shot the video, but the "expert" he mentioned whose testing he is looking forward to is a fucking far cry from that title. I pretty much ignore everything they have to say after reading some of their articles and bio. 

Not bagging on the maker, and I hope he does well IF his stuff is reliable. I won't buy it, and doubt many others will either, primarily because it's not going to do anything we don't already have, and as a small boutique maker it will probably be significantly more expensive than proven and readily available products.


 

Location: North Carolina

There have been a couple trends that seem to repeat.. 

Light projectile, crazy high MV. 

Heavy projectile, high MV

Super Heavy projectile, moderate MV

What NO ONE talks about is how getting these combinations jacks with chamber pressures at near danger levels and how rough that is on pistol components.

I'll give you an example.. I can handload new nickle brass with a 200gr projectile to 1700fps for 10mm. As long as I am willing to ignore all the over pressure signs, throw the now unsafe to reload brass away and beat the hell out of my barrel, extractor, ejector and frame.  Just because I can, doesn't mean I should. 

Do this to a duty weapon? No way in hell... 

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

Never heard of it either (bolla) but can see a few issues, and some scenarios where stating it is "non lethal" could bite you in the ass:

Aim high in a stressful situation and bolla wrap some dude around the neck? Hello garrote wrap.

Wrap some dude up and they fall just right and die (happened in at least one taser case) or they get wrapped up at height and fall to their death (another taser case)

Intermediate barrier/unseen object interference with the line

Damn thing sounded like a gunshot when discharged. Opens the possibility  of sympathetic fire by cover officers who didn't get the deployment word or were to amped up to hear it.

Miss and have to go to plan blaster? We've seen that movie too.

Just a few possibilities  off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

It looked to me like everyone "stopped" by it was a stationary volunteer subject. Also telling is the "testimonials" were chiefs (do we really need to go there) or paid spokesmen and sales guys. 

 

Location: North Carolina

I'm actually hopeful that the Bola Wrap may have some value if--and I heavily emphasize if--used in the right circumstances.

When the Air Taser (predecessor of the Taser M-26, X-26, and later versions) was introduced, it seemed to work every time.  Now we have a 50-60% success rate with what are theoretically better products.

I will posit that the Taser started as a specialized tool carried by officers who likely volunteered for the program and had an interest in less-lethal weapons.  We were also likely tasering people who stood stationary and flexing while growling "Me Hulk! Me angry! Me smash!".  Add to this the surprise factor of a new weapon and its effects and a healthy fear of electricity.

Fast forward to today.  In some agencies, everyone is required to wear a taser.  In my former agency, an officer took a fifteen day rip for tackling a suspect when tasering him would presumably have been OK.  Cops are much more taser-dependent and tasers are deployed in more dynamic situations with moving suspects and crowded environments.  Add to this that suspects know we have tasers.  While they may fear tasers, they know that five second ride isn't going to kill them.

If the Bola Wrap is deployed the way Tasers were originally deployed, it may prove to be a highly useful tool  in some circumstances.  It will prove ineffective in many circumstances and will probably be a waste of money if it becomes a go-to default for uncooperative suspects (though I fully anticipate watching some cop on "Live PD" screaming "Stop or I'll Bola Wrap you! if the thing catches on).  As with the Taser, however, it will work great in some circumstances where a suspect is stationary and apparently resistant. For the moment, at least, it also avoids the restrictions placed the Taser by the courts and liability-conscious Axon attorneys.

And hey, it'll be more useful than that net gun that caught "The Running Man" that the chief had me research back in the day.

libertarian45 posted:

...so, what happened to the Bolla-Wrap in the video?  I'd never heard of it.  Epic fail? 

It is still in the market, the "gun" is $925.   Price plus CWM11B's post is probably why it will wither on the vine.

I will admit during foot pursuits or situations that were about to develop into one, wanting a light portable  device that would shoot a net to capture the suspect.

wraptechnologies.com

 

We, no shit, had a "capture net" back in the day. Don't know who bought it. We actually tried to set it up once to see how it worked.  What a clusterfuck. Think monkey capture scene in "Hatari" (Google it you youngsters. I loved it when I was a kid and still watch it occasionally) only without the desired effect.

Location: North Carolina

CWM11B posted:

Never heard of it either (bolla) but can see a few issues, and some scenarios where stating it is "non lethal" could bite you in the ass:

Aim high in a stressful situation and bolla wrap some dude around the neck? Hello garrote wrap.

Wrap some dude up and they fall just right and die (happened in at least one taser case) or they get wrapped up at height and fall to their death (another taser case)

Intermediate barrier/unseen object interference with the line

Damn thing sounded like a gunshot when discharged. Opens the possibility  of sympathetic fire by cover officers who didn't get the deployment word or were to amped up to hear it.

Miss and have to go to plan blaster? We've seen that movie too.

Just a few possibilities  off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.

It looked to me like everyone "stopped" by it was a stationary volunteer subject. Also telling is the "testimonials" were chiefs (do we really need to go there) or paid spokesmen and sales guys. 

 

Same arguments were used against the TASER and most impact munitions.  Every less lethal tool requires training and policy.  Otherwise stupid happens.

Full disclosure: my agency is T&Eing the Bolawrap, and I’ve taken 2 deployments, including one in shorts to see how the barb/weights penetrate and bruise (it does both).  We’re still figuring out where it’s going to fit, if anywhere.  Not perfect, but we are seeing if it can fill a gap.   It is loud, though.

"Absorb what is useful.  Discard what is useless.  Add what is specifically your own." -Bruce Lee

CWM11B posted:

 "Hatari" (Google it you youngsters. I loved it when I was a kid and still watch it occasionally) only without the desired effect.

Oh, loved that movie when I was a youngster too.

You guys had a net!  That is too cool.  I know of a few street corners where that could have been used to good effect.

Hmmm, thinking about "Hatari" there might be a use for a seat mounted on one of the front quarter panels of a cruiser  and a long pole with a loop...

 

I’ve been wanting a net gun for years, pretty much all we do is foot pursuits. I’ve also offered to buy our horse patrol guys a big net so that they can go all Planet of the Apes on groups...as long as they let me watch. 

Joined: 13AUG2010         Location: Southern Arizona 

I don't disagree Chamelox, but the issues need to be discussed. All of the LL options you mentioned were also touted as "lifesavers" which would all but end the need for deadly force. They generally reduced injuries, and were good tools, right up until the agenda driven decided they weren't, facts be damned. 

One of the huge problems we face with these tools is the laymen believe they are a panacea, and that there should be zero injuries to arrestees. Ever. Another issue I see is regional. I live and policed (still do, technically, though my sworn status is unpaid and my role is primarily that of an instructor) in the 4th circuit. This device will most likely fall into the parameters of the Pinehurst case. From what I see, I'm not convinced it will work that well against an actively assaultive subject. I am open minded, however, and could be convinced of its viability with study. 

If it does prove viable, it will only be a matter of time before the usual suspects condemn it, and the average blue welfare type cops use it as a crutch. Time will tell.

Location: North Carolina

Baltimore City had a less-lethal car in each district if I recall correctly.  The unit was armed with a net-gun, a fire-extinguisher sized OC can, a Tasertron taser, and some type of a projectile launcher.  (PostCar or others, it's been years since I did the research.  If you know better, please join in.)  Some of these things work well in some circumstances, but they are not "Phasers on stun"  As CWM11B posits, they are less likely to be effective against an actively resisting subject.

In the sales pitch for Bola Wrap, I heard, once again, a media shill refer to the less-lethal product as something to be used instead of a gun or Taser.  (Good grief, wasn't the Taser the be-all/end-all replacement for firearms back in the day?)  The less lethal tools are great and they are important.  Every agency needs to have someone like me who is fascinated by these things and is willing to play with them.That said, even when they work, they only work in a limited range of situations.   You can't outfit every cop with every tool, hope they can carry all of them without going out on disability, and expect them to be practical in tense , uncertain, and rapidly evolving situations.  I started my training track as a pepper spray instructor.  I think OC is the often the best and most effective LL tool with the right training, circumstances,  and equipment, but we all know going hands on or impact weapons is the heart and sole of our business.

All this said, if I were still working, I'd definitely want to T&E a Bola Wrap. What?  I T&E'ed a Phazzer.

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