Skip to main content

I'm sure there are others that are compiling precedence against the use of the SERPA system for evaluation by their command/dept.

Here are some official/unofficial statements on the subject:

Larry Vickers: Serpas banned from training courses
source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showp...043371&postcount=112

Gunsite: Serpas not officially banned, but not recommended
source: Cory Trapp of Gunsite
http://www.snipershide.com/for...wflat&Number=2714778

ToddG/Pistol Training: Serpas banned as of this year (2012)
Source: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5361

FLETC: Pending verification, Serpas are banned
Source: Pending

Pat Rogers: "serpas suck"
Source: http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...008371/m/38620833663

 

Updated to add:   LAPD.  Since posted years ago, countless other instructors have added to the list (Defoor, Jeff Gonzales, and more).   At this point it's probably easier to name the few that will still allow it.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017...khawk-serpa-holster/

 

 

Last edited by Community Member
Original Post
One thing I learned when the policy for the OCSO was implemented was that to simply say "no BLACKHAWK! brand SHERPA holsters" is not enough.

There is always that stud out there that then shows up with something like this-

http://www.hkperfection.com/ca...177-HK_Holsters.aspx

and tries to drop the "it's not a SHERPA holster" BS on you.

The way I word things now is-

"No holsters are allowed who's release mechanism is activated with index finger applying pressure towards the body (example, BLACKHAWK! SHERPA brand hosters) UNLESS you are LE or military and this is your duty holster."

I had a phone conversation yesterday in fact with a potential student about this standard and while he was not happy about it at first, learning occurred.
quote:
Originally posted by yetibob:
Lots of Soldiers and Marines walking around Kandahar with shiney new Serpas. But what surprises me are the type of troops wearing them. Thick bearded troops that have certain skill sets and should know better...


That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.
quote:
That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.


Really it's because even in Special Ops, not that many folks are well educated concerning holster nuance. Many view their holster as nothing more than a "gun holder".

And cheaply priced Serpas hang from the racks of every .mil store in the world like apples on a low branch.

Simple laziness. "It's there, it's cheap, I've seen other guys wearing them, I don't have to order on-line and wait for delivery...I'll buy it."

Holster? Check. On to the next thing...
quote:
Originally posted by Airborne_Cookie:
quote:
FLETC: Pending verification, Serpas are banned
Source: Pending


I'd be particularly interested in hearing more about this. Coming from them, it may well be the eye opener my agency needs to switch to the Safariland ALS series.


I got an e-mail from our FLETC agency armorer today that said the center has had 3 ADs, including 2 with injury to upper leg of student.
Just got back from days off. Here's a little clarification on the FLETC position:

"There have been three accidental discharges of a firearm by students at FLETC using Blackhawk SERPA holsters. These were not NPS students. Two closely occurring incidents have resulted in the student shooting themselves in the upper leg. Luckily both were shallow in and out bullet wounds. FLETC is currently investigating these incidents."

Continuing (some of this is old news):

"As part of the investigation FLETC will be conducting tests on the holster to see if it may have been a contributing factor to the AD's. What I expect they may find is that an incorrect technique was used in the act of drawing the gun from the Serpa holster because of a very unique tension device (see #1 below). Meanwhile, let me point out three safety concerns with these holsters.

1. Index finger pressure on the tension device on the outside of the holster releases an internal lock on the trigger guard (one of the retentions). The index finger should remain straight as you draw the gun. If you curl you finger and push the button with your fingertip, and retain the curl and pressure as you draw, your finger could end up inside the trigger guard and potentially result in an AD.

2. Dirt in the tension device can lead to the jamming of the internal locking system leaving the firearm stuck in the holster.

3 . The firearm can get stuck in the holster if it is placed in backwards - yet this is one step in a commonly taught and used support-hand only drawing technique. Blackhawk includes a "recommendation" against inserting a firearm backward in their holsters in the FAQ section of their website.


That's it, it's just a review at this point. I wouldn't expect a total FLETC ban any time soon but we'll have to wait and see.

The last point is one that I'd not thought of - since I've never really drawn from a Serpa holster. I have done support hand reload drills where the weapon is stuck in the holster backwards though and it would sure suck if the gun got irretrievably stuck.
quote:
Originally posted by Astronomy:
quote:
That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.


Really it's because even in Special Ops, not that many folks are well educated concerning holster nuance. Many view their holster as nothing more than a "gun holder".

And cheaply priced Serpas hang from the racks of every .mil store in the world like apples on a low branch.

Simple laziness. "It's there, it's cheap, I've seen other guys wearing them, I don't have to order on-line and wait for delivery...I'll buy it."

Holster? Check. On to the next thing...


or they are issued and the only thing that the soldier can use is issued equipment .
quote:
Originally posted by palacial:
The firearm can get stuck in the holster if it is placed in backwards - yet this is one step in a commonly taught and used support-hand only drawing technique. Blackhawk includes a "recommendation" against inserting a firearm backward in their holsters in the FAQ section of their website.

The last point is one that I'd not thought of - since I've never really drawn from a Serpa holster. I have done support hand reload drills where the weapon is stuck in the holster backwards though and it would sure suck if the gun got irretrievably stuck.


When I visited NFTTU at Ft. Benning in 2010 they had a flyer about this, and quite a bit of discussion followed. Essentially, firearm can only be removed by destroying holster. Don't think they had an "official" stance on it, but they sure were not recommending it....
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by cartier007:
I work with several guys that wear the serpa, and I think sgts and Lts get them issued. I try to warn them, but its like talking to a rock, most of the time. Most of the guys don't get why I spend my own $ to get gear that works and I can count on.



I hear ya on all of the above.



Yeap same issue. there are far too many people that are willing to save money then buy gear that is proven.
"...how would they enforce it..."

If FLETC bans something, look for even CBP and ICE (the two largest federal components to issue SERPA holsters to their personnel) to bend. They rely on FLETC facilities for most of their training, after all. Yes, personnel in the field could continue to utilize them, but anyone needing firearms training conducted at FLETC facilities would have to comply with any equipment bans; new hires, certain instructors, etc.
Apparently you can sort of add Kyle Defoors to the list.
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012...s-in-my-classes.html
quote:
Instead of an outright ban, I have a solution. There are many military units that have been issued/chosen/been told they are using this absurdly dangerous holster. For you guys here is what I've got-

With the holster empty take a long sharp knife, reach down inside the SERPA and cut/saw the plastic piece that rests inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered. You may need to use a set of needle nose pliers to help rip that nub off. This will make the push button a non issue and the tension screw can be used for retention.

Whoever chose this piece of shit to be issued to anyone- you're an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk.
Not to double post, but as I can't edit my last post, Wilson Tactical Training can also be added to the list of those who have banned SERPA's from their courses.
http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326
I'm only quoting the conclusion for brevity, the entire article is an interesting and informative read.
quote:
Conclusion:

As an instructor, a shooter with 30 years of experience, and a person who has twelve years of market testing and evaluation experience, I do not recommend the Blackhawk Serpa Holster to anyone. In my opinion, this holster creates a range safety issue due to having to use force to press a button, which falls in close proximity to the trigger group; and the space between the trigger group and the index point not being sufficient to prevent the shooter from prematurely engaging the trigger. As a result of my experience with the Serpa holster, and this test, the Serpa holster is now banned from my classes. The Serpa holster is becoming such a problem that other training companies are starting to ban the use of it as well.
I was chatting with some of the Range guys the other day and I casually mentioned this topic...Holy crap...the shit storm erupted (and they started beating on the messenger !!!) as these SERPA's are issued to all the plain clothes guys and detectives. The range guys are onboard with getting rid of the SERPA, but they need something official to bring upstairs to the bosses. An announcement from FLETC would be great. I realize that lots of links have been posted, but, unfortunately, management here will only listen to official memos from govt agencies, policies from contractors/independent schools/trainers/etc, will be ignored.

Does anybody have direct links (not just a cut and paste of text) to any of these Fed memo's banning the SERPA? A quick search through the FLETC site didn't turn up any. Links to any other PD policy?



.
I've spoken to people in Firearms training at FLETC about this. I was told that serpas are not officially banned, but that, because of recent ADs at FLETC, they are doing an investigation into holsters whose retention is de-activated using the trigger finger. There is nothing official on paper about any holster the last I heard although they are aware that their safety bulletin is making the rounds of the internet
Looks like you can add Trident Concepts to that ban list.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...100756/m/70120589863

quote:
Jeff Gonzales:
We have decided to ban the use of Serpa style holsters due the higher chance of negligent discharges during the draw stroke. Yet, that didn’t stop us from seeing one in class. I didn’t have a replacement holster so we had to run with it, but in the future we will be very specific about not allowing them in classes.
Took an advanced handgun course with Ken Hackathorn a couple of years back. He hadn't banned them at that point but regaled us with the stories of the five different people who had a ND and/or shot themselves in his classes. He effectively made his point. He did suggest that if you were going to use one, put a piece of skate tape over the button to give you a tactile response that you were actually pushing the button. Great class, great instruction. I did not make it to the exalted position of window licker on the short bus. Cool A couple in the class did.
The top guy at work is talking of buying holsters not too long from now (so we are all the same). I am afraid he has his mind set to get SERPA, being of many reasons. I would like to educate him on the troubles accociated with the SERPA holster, especially any official documentation. Since we are a Fed type job, I believe the more official the documentation and recordings, the better (ie: any agency or academy out there Fed or State) as apposed to cut and pasting from various sites.

I have contacted a few folks through PM and would like to hit up on here also. Please PM for work email to send any official docs.


Tracer

Add Reply

Post
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2020
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×