I'm sure there are others that are compiling precedence against the use of the SERPA system for evaluation by their command/dept.

Here are some official/unofficial statements on the subject:

Larry Vickers: Serpas banned from training courses
source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showp...043371&postcount=112

Gunsite: Serpas not officially banned, but not recommended
source: Cory Trapp of Gunsite
http://www.snipershide.com/for...wflat&Number=2714778

ToddG/Pistol Training: Serpas banned as of this year (2012)
Source: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5361

FLETC: Pending verification, Serpas are banned
Source: Pending

Pat Rogers: "serpas suck"
Source: http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...008371/m/38620833663

 

Updated to add:   LAPD.  Since posted years ago, countless other instructors have added to the list (Defoor, Jeff Gonzales, and more).   At this point it's probably easier to name the few that will still allow it.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017...khawk-serpa-holster/

 

 

Original Post
The Okanogan Co Sheriff's Office in WA State does not allow them for any students attending training at our range UNLESS they are duty holsters for LE or MIL members. As much as I would like to see them all go away, I am not going to keep someone from using their duty gear in a class.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
"Why did I shoot the God Damned Cow?  Because it was a God Damed Threat!!!"-Rhino
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
Yesterday i destroyed two brand new in the bag shlurpas.


You could have scored up some airsofter cash from them.

 

Duty, Honor, Country.

1LT Williams & SPC Hosford, 33rd IBCT ILARNG, SGT Chavers & SPC Johnson, 48th IBCT GAARNG - KIA 06JUL09 FOB Kunduz, Afghanistan. RIP Warriors, you are not forgotten.

One thing I learned when the policy for the OCSO was implemented was that to simply say "no BLACKHAWK! brand SHERPA holsters" is not enough.

There is always that stud out there that then shows up with something like this-

http://www.hkperfection.com/ca...177-HK_Holsters.aspx

and tries to drop the "it's not a SHERPA holster" BS on you.

The way I word things now is-

"No holsters are allowed who's release mechanism is activated with index finger applying pressure towards the body (example, BLACKHAWK! SHERPA brand hosters) UNLESS you are LE or military and this is your duty holster."

I had a phone conversation yesterday in fact with a potential student about this standard and while he was not happy about it at first, learning occurred.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
"Why did I shoot the God Damned Cow?  Because it was a God Damed Threat!!!"-Rhino
quote:
Originally posted by yetibob:
Lots of Soldiers and Marines walking around Kandahar with shiney new Serpas. But what surprises me are the type of troops wearing them. Thick bearded troops that have certain skill sets and should know better...


That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.


Really it's because even in Special Ops, not that many folks are well educated concerning holster nuance. Many view their holster as nothing more than a "gun holder".

And cheaply priced Serpas hang from the racks of every .mil store in the world like apples on a low branch.

Simple laziness. "It's there, it's cheap, I've seen other guys wearing them, I don't have to order on-line and wait for delivery...I'll buy it."

Holster? Check. On to the next thing...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The moral high ground is sometimes just a head on a long pike... - Astronomy

 

A new Plt Ldr is like a first time new mother. The Plt Sgt is a lifelong midwife and nanny. It's your baby, but he knows a lot about changing diapers and other ugly things. - Astronomy

quote:
Originally posted by Airborne_Cookie:
quote:
FLETC: Pending verification, Serpas are banned
Source: Pending


I'd be particularly interested in hearing more about this. Coming from them, it may well be the eye opener my agency needs to switch to the Safariland ALS series.


I got an e-mail from our FLETC agency armorer today that said the center has had 3 ADs, including 2 with injury to upper leg of student.

______________________________________

"First with the head, then with the heart"

 

Joined: 1/12/04              Location: Southern Arizona

They are deciding on outcome pending results of the investigation. A couple of the Agencies here (Artesia) issue them, so the results should be "interesting". Pesonaly witnessed one ND last year. Luckily no serious injuries, but he blew out a cargo pocket and got a burn.
Just got back from days off. Here's a little clarification on the FLETC position:

"There have been three accidental discharges of a firearm by students at FLETC using Blackhawk SERPA holsters. These were not NPS students. Two closely occurring incidents have resulted in the student shooting themselves in the upper leg. Luckily both were shallow in and out bullet wounds. FLETC is currently investigating these incidents."

Continuing (some of this is old news):

"As part of the investigation FLETC will be conducting tests on the holster to see if it may have been a contributing factor to the AD's. What I expect they may find is that an incorrect technique was used in the act of drawing the gun from the Serpa holster because of a very unique tension device (see #1 below). Meanwhile, let me point out three safety concerns with these holsters.

1. Index finger pressure on the tension device on the outside of the holster releases an internal lock on the trigger guard (one of the retentions). The index finger should remain straight as you draw the gun. If you curl you finger and push the button with your fingertip, and retain the curl and pressure as you draw, your finger could end up inside the trigger guard and potentially result in an AD.

2. Dirt in the tension device can lead to the jamming of the internal locking system leaving the firearm stuck in the holster.

3 . The firearm can get stuck in the holster if it is placed in backwards - yet this is one step in a commonly taught and used support-hand only drawing technique. Blackhawk includes a "recommendation" against inserting a firearm backward in their holsters in the FAQ section of their website.


That's it, it's just a review at this point. I wouldn't expect a total FLETC ban any time soon but we'll have to wait and see.

The last point is one that I'd not thought of - since I've never really drawn from a Serpa holster. I have done support hand reload drills where the weapon is stuck in the holster backwards though and it would sure suck if the gun got irretrievably stuck.

SPF

 

"No hope gives me guts." D. Boon

quote:
Originally posted by Astronomy:
quote:
That might be because many special people (not just .mil) come to think that certain rules don't apply to them, or they are immune to shit that gets stuck to the little people.


Really it's because even in Special Ops, not that many folks are well educated concerning holster nuance. Many view their holster as nothing more than a "gun holder".

And cheaply priced Serpas hang from the racks of every .mil store in the world like apples on a low branch.

Simple laziness. "It's there, it's cheap, I've seen other guys wearing them, I don't have to order on-line and wait for delivery...I'll buy it."

Holster? Check. On to the next thing...


or they are issued and the only thing that the soldier can use is issued equipment .

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

quote:
Originally posted by palacial:
The firearm can get stuck in the holster if it is placed in backwards - yet this is one step in a commonly taught and used support-hand only drawing technique. Blackhawk includes a "recommendation" against inserting a firearm backward in their holsters in the FAQ section of their website.

The last point is one that I'd not thought of - since I've never really drawn from a Serpa holster. I have done support hand reload drills where the weapon is stuck in the holster backwards though and it would sure suck if the gun got irretrievably stuck.


When I visited NFTTU at Ft. Benning in 2010 they had a flyer about this, and quite a bit of discussion followed. Essentially, firearm can only be removed by destroying holster. Don't think they had an "official" stance on it, but they sure were not recommending it....
I work with several guys that wear the serpa, and I think sgts and Lts get them issued. I try to warn them, but its like talking to a rock, most of the time. Most of the guys don't get why I spend my own $ to get gear that works and I can count on.
quote:
Originally posted by cartier007:
I work with several guys that wear the serpa, and I think sgts and Lts get them issued. I try to warn them, but its like talking to a rock, most of the time. Most of the guys don't get why I spend my own $ to get gear that works and I can count on.


I hear ya on all of the above.

There's no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness.

 

Join Date: 11/18/07

Location: Northern Utah

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by cartier007:
I work with several guys that wear the serpa, and I think sgts and Lts get them issued. I try to warn them, but its like talking to a rock, most of the time. Most of the guys don't get why I spend my own $ to get gear that works and I can count on.



I hear ya on all of the above.



Yeap same issue. there are far too many people that are willing to save money then buy gear that is proven.
As a follow up to the pending Serpa ban at FLETC, how would they enforce it, when its issue is agency mandated (BP). They just switched from Safariland 6000's to Serpas and spent millions about 18 months ago. Just don't see that happening
"...how would they enforce it..."

If FLETC bans something, look for even CBP and ICE (the two largest federal components to issue SERPA holsters to their personnel) to bend. They rely on FLETC facilities for most of their training, after all. Yes, personnel in the field could continue to utilize them, but anyone needing firearms training conducted at FLETC facilities would have to comply with any equipment bans; new hires, certain instructors, etc.

God, country, family

Right before I left Afghanistan, the unit on the ground at my base banned the serpa holster from use since the afghan "police" figured out how to get it out of the holster. They replaced it with the Safariland 6004. So at least the word is getting out to the military...

Is it better to out monster the monster, or be quietly devoured?

It has come to my attention that SERPA is an acronym. Turns out it stands for Sucks Extra Repugnant Pustulent Ass.

Those of us who know must save those that don't from those that think they do.

"If you count 'three', mister, you'll never hear the man count 'ten'".-John Wayne as Sean Thornton in The Quiet Man

My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.-Exodus 22:24

Apparently you can sort of add Kyle Defoors to the list.
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012...s-in-my-classes.html
quote:
Instead of an outright ban, I have a solution. There are many military units that have been issued/chosen/been told they are using this absurdly dangerous holster. For you guys here is what I've got-

With the holster empty take a long sharp knife, reach down inside the SERPA and cut/saw the plastic piece that rests inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered. You may need to use a set of needle nose pliers to help rip that nub off. This will make the push button a non issue and the tension screw can be used for retention.

Whoever chose this piece of shit to be issued to anyone- you're an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk.

------------------------------------------ 260

Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.

- Dr. Richard Feynman

Dan187, he'll fishhook your butthole to win a fight.

Not to double post, but as I can't edit my last post, Wilson Tactical Training can also be added to the list of those who have banned SERPA's from their courses.
http://www.wilsontacticaltraining.com/?p=326
I'm only quoting the conclusion for brevity, the entire article is an interesting and informative read.
quote:
Conclusion:

As an instructor, a shooter with 30 years of experience, and a person who has twelve years of market testing and evaluation experience, I do not recommend the Blackhawk Serpa Holster to anyone. In my opinion, this holster creates a range safety issue due to having to use force to press a button, which falls in close proximity to the trigger group; and the space between the trigger group and the index point not being sufficient to prevent the shooter from prematurely engaging the trigger. As a result of my experience with the Serpa holster, and this test, the Serpa holster is now banned from my classes. The Serpa holster is becoming such a problem that other training companies are starting to ban the use of it as well.

------------------------------------------ 260

Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.

- Dr. Richard Feynman

Dan187, he'll fishhook your butthole to win a fight.

quote:
If FLETC bans something, look for even CBP and ICE (the two largest federal components to issue SERPA holsters to their personnel) to bend.


Unless this was a very recent change, neither CBP or ICE actually issues SERPA holsters. However, they may allow them to be personally purchased and used. There still are a good number of agencies that issue them though.

"I was born in the 80's, dude. We just went out and did shit, not go out and do things just to document them having occurred." - MickFury

Both CBP Office of Air and Marine and Office of Border Patrol issue SERPAs... and have for over five years.

OBP has a version with an additional hood (so it requires both thumb and trigger finger manipulation to release Roll Eyes )

I have way too many holsters for a bloody P2000 at this point. I truly dislike that weapon...

v/r
Geoff

--------------------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Heinlein

quote:
Both CBP Office of Air and Marine and Office of Border Patrol issue SERPAs... and have for over five years.

Durrr, forgot about all the components under CBP, was only thinking of Field Ops.

quote:
I have way too many holsters for a bloody P2000 at this point
Not usually something you hear when talking abut the P2000!

"I was born in the 80's, dude. We just went out and did shit, not go out and do things just to document them having occurred." - MickFury

I was chatting with some of the Range guys the other day and I casually mentioned this topic...Holy crap...the shit storm erupted (and they started beating on the messenger !!!) as these SERPA's are issued to all the plain clothes guys and detectives. The range guys are onboard with getting rid of the SERPA, but they need something official to bring upstairs to the bosses. An announcement from FLETC would be great. I realize that lots of links have been posted, but, unfortunately, management here will only listen to official memos from govt agencies, policies from contractors/independent schools/trainers/etc, will be ignored.

Does anybody have direct links (not just a cut and paste of text) to any of these Fed memo's banning the SERPA? A quick search through the FLETC site didn't turn up any. Links to any other PD policy?



.
I've spoken to people in Firearms training at FLETC about this. I was told that serpas are not officially banned, but that, because of recent ADs at FLETC, they are doing an investigation into holsters whose retention is de-activated using the trigger finger. There is nothing official on paper about any holster the last I heard although they are aware that their safety bulletin is making the rounds of the internet

------------------------------------

In the night, when the town is to be asleep, and it is the especial duty of these watchman, and other officers, to guard against malefactors, it is highly necessary that they should have such a power of detention....We should be very sorry if the law were otherwise. Lawrence v. Hedger, 1810.

quote:
Originally posted by strummer:
<snip>

Does anybody have direct links (not just a cut and paste of text) to any of these Fed memo's banning the SERPA? A quick search through the FLETC site didn't turn up any. Links to any other PD policy?

.


I may have a copy. Let me check the inbox on Monday and I'll let you know.
Looks like you can add Trident Concepts to that ban list.

http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...100756/m/70120589863

quote:
Jeff Gonzales:
We have decided to ban the use of Serpa style holsters due the higher chance of negligent discharges during the draw stroke. Yet, that didn’t stop us from seeing one in class. I didn’t have a replacement holster so we had to run with it, but in the future we will be very specific about not allowing them in classes.

________________________

“The will to survive is not as important as the will to prevail... the answer to criminal aggression is retaliation.” -Jeff Cooper

Took an advanced handgun course with Ken Hackathorn a couple of years back. He hadn't banned them at that point but regaled us with the stories of the five different people who had a ND and/or shot themselves in his classes. He effectively made his point. He did suggest that if you were going to use one, put a piece of skate tape over the button to give you a tactile response that you were actually pushing the button. Great class, great instruction. I did not make it to the exalted position of window licker on the short bus. Cool A couple in the class did.
The top guy at work is talking of buying holsters not too long from now (so we are all the same). I am afraid he has his mind set to get SERPA, being of many reasons. I would like to educate him on the troubles accociated with the SERPA holster, especially any official documentation. Since we are a Fed type job, I believe the more official the documentation and recordings, the better (ie: any agency or academy out there Fed or State) as apposed to cut and pasting from various sites.

I have contacted a few folks through PM and would like to hit up on here also. Please PM for work email to send any official docs.


Tracer

LOCATION: UTAH    JOINED: Jan 06

I don't have the official memo yet, but FLETC is going to ban Serpa holsters from all FLETC training sites.

______________________________________

"First with the head, then with the heart"

 

Joined: 1/12/04              Location: Southern Arizona

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