Just thought I'd add this for completeness, and in no uncertain terms: Wink

http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012...s-in-my-classes.html

quote:

Sunday, February 5, 2012

No more SERPA holsters in my classes

Instead of an outright ban, I have a solution. There are many military units that have been issued/chosen/been told they are using this absurdly dangerous holster. For you guys here is what I've got-

With the holster empty take a long sharp knife, reach down inside the SERPA and cut/saw the plastic piece that rests inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered. You may need to use a set of needle nose pliers to help rip that nub off. This will make the push button a non issue and the tension screw can be used for retention.

Whoever chose this piece of shit to be issued to anyone- you're an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk.

Posted by Kyle at 6:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by welbly:
quote:
Originally posted by DNW:
I don't have the official memo yet, but FLETC is going to ban Serpa holsters from all FLETC training sites.

Already done, that is what prompted DOE's banning of the Serpa.


If someone has a PDF of this policy, please PM me... I just got back from CBP's facility at Harper's Ferry and most of the guys I saw had SERPAs...

--------------------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Heinlein

quote:
Apparently you can sort of add Kyle Defoors to the list.
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2012...s-in-my-classes.html
quote:
Instead of an outright ban, I have a solution. There are many military units that have been issued/chosen/been told they are using this absurdly dangerous holster. For you guys here is what I've got-

With the holster empty take a long sharp knife, reach down inside the SERPA and cut/saw the plastic piece that rests inside the trigger guard when the weapon is holstered. You may need to use a set of needle nose pliers to help rip that nub off. This will make the push button a non issue and the tension screw can be used for retention.

Whoever chose this piece of shit to be issued to anyone- you're an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk.

I like this idea Big Grin
Also, for what it is worth, the email I recently got from Grey Group regarding a John McPhee rifle class starts with:"***Absolutely no Blackhawk Serpa Holsters***"
Since it is exclusively a rifle course, I am thinking that this is a Grey Group policy, and not just John McPhee's standards for this course.
I have personally had a pistol lock itself into a serpa when dirt and rocks got under the release. I had to take a soldering iron and burn off the release paddle to remove the pistol. On a positive note, that serpa is now a good tension holster, doesn't have any of the safety issues with the intact serpa, and still passes the 600-CSM. I did this to my personal holster, can't really recommend anybody modify a military/department issued holster unless you want to pay for it.
Through my agency's channels, personnel arriving at FLETC campuses for select advanced firearms and tactical training have been told that SERPA holsters are not allowed. Replacement holsters are being evaluated. That's code for "where do we get the money for that many Safarilands?"

God, country, family

quote:
Originally posted by ati1027:I had to take a soldering iron and burn off the release paddle to remove the pistol.


That might be a good solution for those that are issued and mandated to carry the thing. Burn off the interior latch of the trigger finger release button. No one would ever notice. Problem is you would take it down one retention level. I guess thats better than shooting your thigh or having a locked up gun when you need it.



.

But every once in a while, you get to take a bad guy off the streets for good... and that, my friend, is God's work.----Ofc John Cooper, Southland

This in from a state academy rule book on firearms training: This in from a state academy rule book on firearms training:

"SHOULDER HOLSTERS, CROSS DRAW HOLSTERS, AND HOLSTERS HAVING AN UNLOCKING DEVICE OPERATED BY THE TRIGGER FINGER, ARE PROHIBITED."

It is used to specifically exclude the Blackhawk Serpa holster from being used on their range. As with many rules, it is based on incidents that have taken place on the range during training. They observed that proper technique for this holster, finger pad used to operate the "finger activation platform," would degrade as the amount of shooter stress increased causing the finger tip to press on the platform and have a higher liklihood of causing the pistol to fire. After having this happen, this academy did a Risk Management review which resulted in the rule.


Follow up information from my source was that the rule has been changed. Due to a handgun manufacturer, in an effort to sell their handgun, gave away free Serpa holsters to law enforcement purchasers. Several larger agencies in that state were equipped with the Serpa. At the agencies insistence, the rule was changed so as to permit the Serpa holster again.

________________________________________________________________

 

Kilroy... ...was here.

 

Telling ain't training........listening is not learning.

 

Can somebody tell me exactly what is failing on a Serpa holster? I personally do not carry one, I run a Safariland, but I'm trying to explain to some other officers why Serpas suck. They keep asking me exactly how these failures are occurring and what part is breaking to cause the holster to not release the gun.

I am not trying to challenge the fact that they are bad bolstered, I just want facts and good info, not opinions.

Thank you.
heytat,

Read this thread:


http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...008371/m/38620833663

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of “loyalty” and “duty.” Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute – get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed.”

- Robert A. Heinlein

 

Joined: 4/22/09          Location: WI

Nothing is breaking.

Issue #1 - trigger finger, which is used to unlock the pistol, then finds its way into the trigger guard before the pistol is brought to bear on the target, causing people to pull the trigger before the pistol is even all the way out of the holster (had this happen to myself while doing draw practice, would've shot myself if I had bullets in the gun. Scared me enough I bought a raven right away)

Issue #2 - if dirt, or even snow, gets underneath the activating end of the button lever, it locks the pistol in, because on the other end of the button lever, there is a little nub that protrudes into the trigger guard of the holstered pistol. (I don't roll around on the ground, so I've never had this happen to me). If you can't press the button, you basically have to saw the holster off the pistol.

The holster isn't breaking, there's dangerous design flaws inherent in the button release system.

And in that thread, I think that there are videos demonstrating the pistol locking into the holster.
Heytat-

I'm in Colorado also (I-70 Corridor), more than happy to demonstrate the issues with the SERPA in person if you'd like. Not sure where exactly you are in the state but I'm sure we could figure a way to meet up.

Just be advised, I do not own a SERPA (and never will). Also if we do demonstrate this I would anticipate having to cut the gun out of the holster (we can use a redgun) so don't borrow one if they want it back afterwards.

Drop me a PM if you're interested, I'm going to be on vacation soon traveling across the state and might be able to make a detour.
XGEP,
Im closer to Pueblo, but I have three old Serpas and a redgun. I have read the other thread on Serpas and I plan on doing an experiment which I will photograph. If I get some useful photos I will find out a way to post them. Thanks for the offer though!
quote:
Originally posted by QB:
Nothing is breaking.

Issue #1 - trigger finger, which is used to unlock the pistol, then finds its way into the trigger guard before the pistol is brought to bear on the target, causing people to pull the trigger before the pistol is even all the way out of the holster (had this happen to myself while doing draw practice, would've shot myself if I had bullets in the gun. Scared me enough I bought a raven right away)

Issue #2 - if dirt, or even snow, gets underneath the activating end of the button lever, it locks the pistol in, because on the other end of the button lever, there is a little nub that protrudes into the trigger guard of the holstered pistol. (I don't roll around on the ground, so I've never had this happen to me). If you can't press the button, you basically have to saw the holster off the pistol.

The holster isn't breaking, there's dangerous design flaws inherent in the button release system.

And in that thread, I think that there are videos demonstrating the pistol locking into the holster.


Yes, they are breaking. The holster seperates from the belt mount or paddle with little effort. I have seen the lock break on one where the lock sheared right off. One officer had his break off the paddle the very first time he was putting it on to qualify at our range for off duty. I saw him take it out of the package and break while I stood facing him.

Garden State

How about......

NFE!

They are dangerous, can get locked up, fall off, and break.

I hate to see students running them. This is especially true with beginning shooters. They scare the shit out of me as an instructor.

I have seen several ND's with baby shooters with that piece of crap.

They are not the only shitty holster out there, but they represent the pinnacle of crappy holsters in my book.

Friends don't let friends do Sherpa.....
"War is the forge that hardens us" Archpriest N'Gathan
The whle SERA this still does not sound corredt. So does the holster have the problem or is it the shooter that is not trained correctly. We have everyone in out deartment (mix of Sigs and Glocks)issed with a SERHA and have no issues for several years now.

So the question is Holster or shooter?

divided we all fall

Spectacular. You managed to spell the same word (the subject of this thread no less) in three different ways.

Go back and read the email you got when you signed up for the forum and apply that newfound knowledge ASAP. Then come back and read this thread in its entirety. You may find your question has been answered.

The chief firearms instructor at the Georgia Public Safety Training Center banned them for a time on the GPSTC range.  However, enough people got to the Director, and the Director overruled the chief instructor.

 

I haven't banned them officially in my agency, but I reserve the right to mercilessly heckle anyone that I see wearing one.

just spoke with a fletc firearms instructor a month ago. he said that after much analysis that the decision to down the serpa was administrative. the instructors weren't wild about the serpa, but the shortcomings have to do with training more than design. I have no judgment on this statement, just passing on info.

While this story is here-say a SF soldier reportedly had a SERPA fail to extract downrange because the latch had frozen shut.  There is also rumor that a number of people running hair trigger guns had ADs while pulling out of their holster because the finger was already resting on the trigger at the point of extraction.  What we can tell you is SERPA holsters have now become somewhat taboo in a lot of the SOF community.

I have personally seen two SERPAs break apart during training. Several of the guys on our team continue to use them even after being witness to this. As for me, I use Safariland and don't worry about those problems.  I believe you get what you pay for, buy once cry once.  Go for quality the first time.

Isaiah 6:8

The scariest shit I've ever seen was in Afghanistan, where Navy docs, nurses and psychologists a) had weapons, but b) mounted SERPA holster to the Molle webbing of their MTV's, with the muzzle of the weapon pointed either a) at the guy next to them, or b) at their own faces. I saw one O-6 with his pointed straight up (at his own chin), and was about to address this tactfully (I was an O-3 at the time), when the FOB First Sergeant went ballistic on him in a less tactful manner.

 

Scary shit.  

Jacob Mearse LCDR, NC, USN ER/Trauma Nurse

i'm low-speed, high-drag male nurse POG, but I'd gladly die for my Marines, and they know that. 

If someone could provide me with advice on handling an issue involving this holster I would appreciate input. I'm not an agent but work support for CBP in west Texas and have witnessed actions by a certain agent that freaks me the fuck out.

 

The agent in question is short, chubby, and I suspect had a hard time with bullying as a youngster, he has the walk and attitude of a mall cop not a professional. The problem is that when this guy wants to make a point or display disagreement with support personnel he will either, a. unholster and deploy his baton or b. release and partially draw his sidearm, I know the weapon has been released as it has the distinctive "click" as he re-holsters. I think it bolsters his self image as a cool guy.

 

HTH did this loose cannon hire on and WTF do I need to do to address this? Before anyone suggests I take this to my supervisor, he has witnessed this and finds it humorous. I retired in 12 as an E-8, six years as a 1SG and have been tempted to take care of it my way but it would not be good for career progression, I'm at the bottom of the food chain now.

Originally Posted by Miraclejoe:

So I have this plain clothes gig coming up. Never mind that no training is provided, but I am being issued a Serpa as the holster to use. I died a little inside when they showed me the new holster they decided on.

Will they let you use a personally owned holster that isn't dripping with fail?

____________________________________________________

 

"I have the political sense of a wolverine and should not be considered a role model." - Doug Mitchell

Anybody catch the buzz about G&A stepping on their own dick regarding the serpa?  Basically, they tried to justify the Serpa, but end up proving against it perfectly.  The leg work was done by Nick Drak.  Here's his video:

cut from:

My complements to Nick for helping to put one more nail in the coffin of the piece of garbage known as serpa.  

"Pain, we endure...faulty weaponry, we do not."

"oh his going to shoot himself" is what I said repeatedly as I watched that. 

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

Did you catch what he was said right after watching him almost blow a hole in his thigh?

"The difference is, I make it look good."

Priceless. 

____________________"Requiring the police to do and be everything for everyone at any time doesn’t make sense. If you expect cops to be able to stop bleeding; start hearts; change tires; calm the irrational; comfort the heartbroken; control schizophrenics when doctors can’t; straighten out unruly students when five teachers can’t; make life-and-death decisions in split seconds; learn city, state and federal case laws and be able to understand, remember and execute the intricacies of over 2,000 general orders in the blink of an eye while engaged in bizarrely chaotic and dangerous situations in the middle of the night …We may, as a society, be nuts." - Jim Glennon

Add Reply

Likes (1)
MOJONIXON
Post
Copyright Lightfighter Tactical Forum 2002-2019
×
×
×
×
×