Short back rucks and belt kits

Diz posted:

It may well be the wave of the future, but we're not there yet.  Until we get the technology to weld in tight corners/complex structures, and join stacks of dissimilar materials/ thicknesses, or the glue that will remained bonded indefinitely, sewing will reign supreme.     

To paraphrase the Bard: 'Now indeed thrive the seamstresses'

OK to demonstrate what the fuck I've been trying to say the past few weeks.  Here is the DG-16 frameset, with LBT mod, with the Velocity/Mayflower jungle kit.  Yes I realize it's a little big on my scrawny ass, but notice instead how well the ruck fits into the top of the belt kit.

  

That's how it supposed to be.  If I cinched it up, it would fit even better.  But the takeaway is how well the ruck and frame fit right in with a properly designed belt kit.  Props to Crossfire and Velocity/Mayflower.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Here you can see how the ruck rides on top of the Brit canteens.  The frame just catches the canteens so a butt pack will work in lieu of sustainment pouches if that's what you prefer.   

This was just an initial fit-up, but I can tell you, I've never felt a better fit between a ruck and a belt kit.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

So, wearing it even in the office, how much of the load is taken off by the buttpack on the LBE? 

Awaiting report from you crawling around, climbing into and out of things, etc. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Some of you may have noticed that Mayflower uses a double strap from the front strap, vice the double strap on the rear as used in Brit kit.  They also use a direct attachment to the pouches themselves, vice the belt.   Now I don't know if one system is superior to the other, but I do know the Mayflower set up felt really good with a ruck on it.  The weight is more evenly distributed with those two extra points of support (versus the std 4), with each mag pouch getting a strap and your choice around back, whether you want to attach to butt pack or canteens. You get the same feeling form Jay Jays belt kit, but this is slightly better.  And certainly a lot lighter.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

You can really feel the weight sink into the belt line.  As opposed to just hanging off your back.  

Yeah we will be rucking this stuff shortly.  As soon as my buddy recovers! 

And after AUSA I should have my Crossfire system, which is a DG-3/Mk-6 type design, so I will have a complete system to test out, in conjunction with a complete Mayflower type belt kit.

Gonna be a great fall.  Lotsa good R&D. 

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

Some of you may have noticed that Mayflower uses a double strap from the front strap, vice the double strap on the rear as used in Brit kit.  They also use a direct attachment to the pouches themselves, vice the belt.   Now I don't know if one system is superior to the other, but I do know the Mayflower set up felt really good with a ruck on it.  The weight is more evenly distributed with those two extra points of support (versus the std 4), with each mag pouch getting a strap and your choice around back, whether you want to attach to butt pack or canteens. You get the same feeling form Jay Jays belt kit, but this is slightly better.  And certainly a lot lighter.   

If you have four points in the rear and four points in the front the battle belt balances very evenly, much like the old LBV.  It doesn't add additional weight, being just 1-inch Type IV tape.

This rig balances best when you have live weight in the ammo pouches and water in the canteens, otherwise it's like wearing a FLC with canteen/Camelbak weight and no ammo -- the damn thing rides up high in the front.

Yeah pretty much except that these rigs have 6 points of support total; you may have either two points per side in front, or two points per side in the rear, but not both for 8 total.  Not that 8 might not be a good idea just nobody is doing that right now that I know of.

But to your point, yeah with full ammo load out it does balance better.  If you have 12 lbs of mags and another 4-6 lbs of grenades, that is a substantial counter-balance.  If I have a 40 lb ruck and try to get at least half of that on the belt, then you bet, very good counter-balance.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz posted:

OK to demonstrate what the fuck I've been trying to say the past few weeks.  Here is the DG-16 frameset, with LBT mod, with the Velocity/Mayflower jungle kit.  Yes I realize it's a little big on my scrawny ass, but notice instead how well the ruck fits into the top of the belt kit.

   

That's how it supposed to be.  If I cinched it up, it would fit even better.  But the takeaway is how well the ruck and frame fit right in with a properly designed belt kit.  Props to Crossfire and Velocity/Mayflower.  

Who's the slim, super fit-looking guy you hired to model it? 

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

It actually looks REALLY good.  I like how the two seem to "mate" together (for lack of a better word).  And I still see an opening between the frag and the canteen pouch, but I'm stubborn like that. 


If it's a Pain in the Ass....you're doing it WRONG

I don't make policy, only suggestions, take them as such.

 

Joined: 8/5/05    Location: 20 miles west of Gettysburg, PA

 

 

libertarian45 posted:
Diz posted:
 

Who's the slim, super fit-looking guy you hired to model it? 

22F is moonlighting again while coal prices are down.

Seriously though, that frame/strap assy is on my Xmas list.  I'd like to see an evaluation after a few months of hard use or a deployment...but what I have now needs replacement.

The jungle rig...perhaps a group buy via Nelson & Co?

Yeah man I'm pretty stoked with this combination.  Some observations.

We did notice that gap as well.  There is definitely room on the curve for more shit.  Thinking of doing a "double-triple pouch", Brit style to close the gap, and make room for a radio.  See pic.  

My thinking is if the two pouches are on the same base, they will flex open less, leaving room for a radio pouch behind.

I don't have any SADF canteens.  Anybody got a source on them? 

That would be me as my buddy doesn't like to be caught on camera.  But I bet you say that to all the guys.  Training for the fan dance the last two years will tend to do that.  

Yeah too true, the proof is in the pudding so we will be putting the hard miles in very soon.  But sometimes it's like a good boot; you just know when you put it on it's gonna work really well.   

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yeah OK, I'll post up in the DIY section.  But be fore-warned, I'm going in a slightly different direction, so I wouldn't recommend doing a few things, but yeah, I can point that out and explain why-for I'm doing things differently next time.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I watched a couple of you tube videos(now I am an expert) on packing British belt kit and noticed they put their canteens cap side down bottom up in their pouches. No reason was given. Does this make a better "shelf"?

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Well yeah since you live in Maine this is a good technique for you.  They do that for cold weather, so the ice forms on the bottom first, not in the neck.  Also they fill up with hot water/tea so it takes longer to freeze.

As far as a shelf, it's the same, either way.     

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I knew about the freezing but they didn't mention that in either video so was wondering if it was SOP for the Brits. Only one of the canteens/water bottle had a cup so I was wondering if that was why to make a more uniform shelf. Thanks.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Ah, OK, most guys I've seen use two; one for scoff (food) and the other for brew (usually tea).   A separate mess tin is used for heating stuff, although most yanks have a metal cup for this.  So yeah in that case, it will make a better shelf, as well as keep the neck clear of ice longer.  

You can run US GI canteen and cup that way; either with the cup on top of the canteen or the canteen upside down with the cup underneath.  Doesn't nest quite as good as the Brit stuff, but doable.   I'm changing over to 1 qt Nalgene GI style canteens, which are a bit quieter, but I still put a cloth cook rag in there as a silencer.  With a few packets of coffee and cocoa stuffed in around it, leaving a hole for the neck, you're GTG.        

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Diz,

 

I bought a couple SADF 2L canteens off of an ebay seller. They are being shipped from Australia and will hopefully arrive within the next 1-2 weeks.

I also just received a Velocity Systems Jungle General Purpose pouch. I'm really liking the design and materials used. I was surprised how light weight it was, and the extended drawstring collar could come in handy when trying to stuff a jacket or other snivel gear into the pouch. 

Once the canteens come in, I'll take some photos of the fit. My goal is to use one of the Source Tactical Hydration "convertube" kits and turn the 2L canteen into a "hydration system".  

Linz posted:
domestique posted:

Diz,

 

I bought a couple SADF 2L canteens off of an ebay seller. They are being shipped from Australia and will hopefully arrive within the next 1-2 weeks.

Watch for poorly made copies of the SADF 2l canteen.

Any thing specific to look out for?

They claim BPA free, Australian made, and the seller sells only higher end Australian military gear. 

Hey nice, now I can see why they are desirable.  Fit right in a ruck pocket.

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Yes, swear I have never seen those. Nice rectangle shape. 

I've been using Pedialyte bottles for a bit here for lightweight but sturdier than other reused bottle types, good lids, and square. I am surprised after 30 years of Nalgene how much I like packing squares. 

I already have so many water bottles I don't have room to store them so totally just ordered a 2 pack of these. Naturally. Bastards. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

My old Gerry pack is about the same height as the ALICE frame so the stays end up at the same area as the bottom of the ALICE frame. I was wondering if it gets you anything in a shorter bag. Looks just like rivets holding them on.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

Yeah that's one way to go, and yeah I would do an "X" pattern over parallel or "V" stays.

I think the new Crossfire frame coming out would work nicely with the Medium as well.  The advantage here would be to get the ruck off your back for ventilation, for those that need that.  Also would certainly allow more weight to be carried.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

Not following where you are putting these stays, but there are other options if it's in sleeves and you aren't riveting or whatever. A favorite for other pack hackers is to get carbon fiber arrow shafts. Apparently, cheap by the 10 pack or whatever they come in at the arrow stores. Rigid enough, but flexes a bit to be more comfy, fits in stay sleeves, and weighs nothing at all. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

2L canteens arrived today.

 

The next step is to take a spare USGI canteen lid and use food grade epoxy to attach a Source Tactical "Convertube" kit to the lid so it becomes a bottled hydration kit with bite valve and tube. 

I may cut and sew an elastic "door" in the top of the pouch to allow the lid to stick out the top.

 I do wish the buckle and strap were longer, but the 2L canteen slides in and out perfectly! Overall I'm really happy with this setup.

 

 

Velocity Systems General Purpose Pouch pictured.

 

 

 

Australian water bottles arrived. Top threads are USGI, but caps and retainers are (subtly) not to US pattern (ever noticed it's easier to loose than tighten canteens, etc). 

Relative sizes: 

500ml Nalgene, 1000ml Nalgene, 1000ml Pedialyte, USGI 1 qt, USGI 2qt, 2000ml Aussie SADF knockoffs 

 

PS if anyone else likes the idea of the Pedialyte bottles, ask and I can save them for you. I have plenty, but also a toddler. He keeps making empties. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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Those look like the 1 liter normal saline irrigation bottles.

Am I right?

_____________________________________________

 

Doug

If I mention Corona, I ain't talking about beer.

 

"It's your turn to do until it's not."  TA

 

"Afterall.... if you get yourself into a fair fight.. you really haven't learned anything in all the time you have spent on Lightfighter, your tactics suck, and you don't deserve to breed."  David Reeves

 

JOINED:  9/20/09     LOCATION:  Outside of KSA Finally!

The clear one I assume you mean: They are Pedialyte (or knockoff) bottles. Not identical to the Baxter saline bottles (used to have one of those but do not now) but similar. Caps are cheaper, like any consumer grade cap but they do seal well, and do not have the separate gasket material so seem to be holding up so far. 

Basically I use them because: square, stable when set down, light weight, more rigid and has more grooves to not drop than most other reuse bottles like Gatorade which somehow too many UL people are enamoured with. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

On the thread thing, yeah noticed that on some 1 qt "US GI" canteens I ordered awhile back.  The threads were not quite right.  Lots of crap out there these days.  

I like the Nalgene 1 qt GI style canteens; kinda have your cake and eat it too.  

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine where a person claims all the benefits of the body politic, without any of the responsibilities, and then claims a halo for their dishonesty." Heinlein

I might have to grab up some of those Mayflower pouches, between those and some Tyr pouches I already have, I think it would work pretty well.  Wish the Army would have moved forward on this.  My only serious complaint about the ALICE frame is it is a little to long for my body.  

ruck frames

"A pirate is not the sort of a man who generally cares to pay his bills...and after a time the work of endeavoring to collect debts from pirates was given up."

          -Frank R. Stockton

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Forgot to follow up on the water bottles. Carried these around a bit, and when tightened to the same degree as USGI canteens, they are perfectly water tight. But, takes some deliberate effort to get to the same tightness. That minor difference I mentioned above in the shape of the lid grooves matters. Who knew design mattered?!

When next I see some dirt cheap surplus canteens somewhere, with good lids, gonna grab two and toss the bottles, trade the lids out. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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