Question about the Select-Slug drill … does anyone have a source to it being used in a shooting? Absent that, anyone who has done it in preparation for a shooting only to have gained the BadGuy’s compliance in another way?

 

Starting with Gunsite’s shotgun class in ’95 & Bill Jeans, I was taught it – it was reinforced during shotgun classes by both Awerbuck and Reitz.

 

I am looking for an instance of it being used, like the tactical reload and Dean Caputo’s experience.

 

Just to confirm we are on the same page, I am referring to (and this starts off with a fully loaded magazine tube) a) chambering a round of 00Buck, b) loading a slug into the tube’s open space, c) running the action to eject the 00Buck shell and chamber the slug, d) engage with the slug at distance or on a high percentage target.

 

In advance, thank you. (I’ll be posting it in several places).

 

Erick

Original Post

I'm curious about this too. If he posts info somewhere else, would you please relay that info here?

Thanks.

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"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

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Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

As we discussed on the phone, but as a public post for the membership.  Short answer, yes.  I actually set our Vang guns in every car up with a plus one mag tube, 4 rounds of 00 buck and 6 rounds of slug on the sidesaddle.  This made it very simple and much less complex handling of a traditionally taught select slug drill.  An immediate loading of slug in the chamber an drew the first round up was done fairly often for dealing with felons in vehicles.  Every case I know of resulted in surrender. I did this regularly.  As far as I know, it was never used in a shooting....but we did have a massive failure after I retired when it was no longer emphasized in training and slugs would have easily solved a vehicle problem that was not with pistol and 5.56 rounds.

I had performed the traditionally taught versions with our older stock four round tube and bead sight 870's.  In one case I did remove a street light at a scene that was fairly critical during a response to a gang ambush on a police sergeant.  The light that needed killing was over twenty five yards away.  I performed a select slug transition from buckshot and hit it twice with brenekke slugs.  

Personally, 12 ga. is my "thing".  A huge benefit, especially for those in many ban states is the ability to tailor ammunition for the problem or mission.  With that said, it needs to be taught as efficiently as possible as it is a unique case where we are trying to perform an administrative function in what is often a tactical environment.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Question I have been mulling over...

If you have the ability to carry slugs and 00 (or #1, or whatever buckshot you are  issued) why not load with slugs and the  select 00 if that's the appropriate load for the job at hand?

It seems to me that slugs are the more versatile round capable of sorting both near and far threats, as well as intermediate barrier penetration, while 00 can really only service close threats.

When responding to a situation where 00 is the answer, you can always download and plus up the 00.

Or am I all upside down on this....

ETA: And welcome back. You have been missed.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

We had a "use" of the select a slug during a shooting.  Sort of.  I'll try to abbreviate this as much as possible.

Call was a dude in town in a trailer park area shooting wildly.  This was in the middle of the city limits, with apartments, trailers, and houses all around.  This trailer park went away in the last few years (long overdue).  But it was located adjacent to a really weird intersection that is hard to get to. 

So, several cops respond. This is Oklahoma.  People shoot in town more than they should, as most "guy with a gun shooting" calls are a car backfiring or a kid with a BB gun. It was dark out, and the trailer park area was badly overgrown. A creek right behind it, and an apartment complex behind that.  

The first two cops come in from different directions to try to hem the dude in if he was shooting.  The officer that gets close first starts taking multiple incoming rounds that aren't missing by much.  He screams on the radio for help, and everyone goes. He has an idea where it's coming from, but can't see the shooter. Basically, he's pinned down.  

Two responding officers decide to approach from the left of where they think the shooter is.  One has an 870, one has an AR.  They also don't know where it's coming from, but just work toward the sound of gunfire (remember, very dark, lots of woods).  They see muzzle flashes, and realize the guy is about 40 yards away.  The female - we'll call her Mary - tells partner to wait while she selects a slug in the dark.  Partner heard "yell commands to bad guy so he'll know where we are and start shooting at us".  And that's what happened.

As Mary knelt to select a slug from behind cover, they start taking close misses. She finally got it done (apparently more slowly than her last time in training).  While she's doing this, partner (a former army grunt/scout platoon dude with several shooting tours over in Afghanistan) just lights up the dude with the AR.  15 very fast rounds at the muzzle flashes (still no ID on the target), and hits him 4x.  None fatal of course.  He had set up his AR with a personal EOTech, since at the time we had no optics - irons and 65 lumen lights only.

Guy fell down, and everybody in the town was there by now.  Everyone approaches, and treat nutjob for his wounds (2 in the arm, 2 in the belly - nothing important hit).  

Mary was beside herself that she never fired a shot.  She selected a slug like she was taught (although with some extra "I'm getting shot at for the first time in my life" fumble factor.  She's been mad ever since.  

Since then we have gone to the range and had everyone at the PD shoot the "Mary Drill" since so many people went around saying how much better they would have done. Shotgun cruiser safe like you carry it.  Step up on the line. At the 35 yard line, seek cover and either fire what you have in it, (almost everyone carried buck at the time" or select a slug. 5 second target exposure. If you shoot the buck, and get any pellets off target, you fail. If you select a slug, and miss or either don't get your shot off, you fail.  We went immediately after I explained the rules.  Of 95 shooters, I believe 6 passed.  It's not hard to pass if you know it's coming, but cold - "Do this, GO!" - it ain't so easy. And nobody was shooting at them.  

Most people started carrying slugs as their primary in the shotgun.  Works at 2, 7 , 25, 50 and 200 all the same.  No selecting shit.  (My minor soap box).

Back to the story, guy survives, and goes to prison after he admitted he was trying to kill the cops. Just one of those dudes - got drunk and decided to get into a gunfight with the responding officers.  

If Mary hadn't had a partner with an AR that was ready to go NOW, who knows the outcome? This was a very dark gunfight in a really bad place as far as backstop goes.  None of our guys hit, and only one of our guys shot (totally blew our great hit percentage before and since then). Shortly after this, we got much brighter lights, aimpoints on every single rifle, and most guys (and girls) carry slugs in their smoke poles.  But very few even carry them anymore.  The favor of the smoke pole went away rapidly after this shooting.  

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Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

High Exposure posted:

Question I have been mulling over...

If you have the ability to carry slugs and 00 (or #1, or whatever buckshot you are  issued) why not load with slugs and the  select 00 if that's the appropriate load for the job at hand?

It seems to me that slugs are the more versatile round capable of sorting both near and far threats, as well as intermediate barrier penetration, while 00 can really only service close threats.

When responding to a situation where 00 is the answer, you can always download and plus up the 00.

Or am I all upside down on this....

ETA: And welcome back. You have been missed.

This.

My agency recently dumped 00 buck as a whole and now we only carry slugs for our 870s. Not a fan, but is what it is. We had the guns set up on one points and attached a 12 shell pouch to the sling with 6 slugs and 6 buck. Some guys candy cane loaded the gun with a mix of the two, but I personally just went all slug from the start and left the buck in the pouch.

The reason I never loaded buck as primary is because at the time, the 870 was my piss poor rifle substitute. If I had to take a shot with the 870, I wanted it to be with a slug instead of buck. Granted we used the Federal Flite-Control buck which has an almost negligible spread, but I was more comfortable knowing I was sending one projectile out instead of nine.

That said, I liked having the buck available for those times I'd have to put down deer or whatever else where penetration was a concern (deer on pavement with no grass around to drag it to, etc). Options are always a good thing. My HD shotguns are loaded with buck.

After 3 years I finally got selected for our rifle school and now carry one at work. Can't carry the shotgun anymore as a result but it is what it is.

You wouldn't need select slug drills if you loaded slug in the first place. Not saying it's the right way, but it's what makes the most sense to someone like me who relied on the shotgun as my only long gun option/rifle substitute. YMMV as always.

Don't dial 911, dial 0311

"My agency recently dumped 00 buck as a whole and now we only carry slugs"

We had an OIS with a rifle and shotgun, BG had a pistol and a hunting rifle.  Of the two rounds of buckshot fired, only two pellets drew blood (due to range).  Our training director lobbied the sheriff to dump buckshot and use slugs exclusively.  We have been slugs only ever since.  I teach the shotgun segment in our POST academy and demo patterning and change overs for the non-agency officers who might still use both loadings.

 Im not "High Speed", Im "Non-Stick"

For many, many years I was a big shotgun fan - not only for myself but for others as well. Now, not so much for others and I view it as having a limited role. While I am still comfortable with a shotgun and definitely see its benefits for those in places where carbines aren't viable, in places without restrictions there are better choices. 

SPD- Thank you for your answer.

So my response that I typed for the last 45 minutes just disappeared........I swear, if we do not change this software........

when I am done cussing and finish at the range, I may try again.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Dagga Boy posted:

So my response that I typed for the last 45 minutes just disappeared........I swear, if we do not change this software........

when I am done cussing and finish at the range, I may try again.

Well, this much showed up in e-mail:

How are you using the gun will dictate the use.....period. I think a little Irish guy said "Mission drives the gear train". We often poorly define the mission, poorly prepare (often due to stupid policy making executives who are dictating policy for crap they have no clue about other than watching cop shows on tv), and training as poor as everything else. So......here is my take on some of this from a guy who has spent a ton of time with the 12 ga. operationally both out of necessity and...

This question has come up previously on this board ("find me a real world case of select slug being used").  Yes it's happened, but it's rare. 

That being said, should one still be able to do it?  YES.

There are problems that slugs will solve that buck will not. 

Having said that, it is incumbent upon the user to know when to select slug, and how to do so efficiently, and without error.  And if one is going to use slugs at distance, to know holdovers, and to have the ability to do it (have you/your guys trained to hit with slugs using a bead sight at 50, 75, 100, 100+ yds?). 

As to shooting out streetlights, recently a local agency had to do so during a barricade incident in which the suspects continued shooting at LE from inside the building, so there can be a real need to disable streetlights.   I'm not sure how they solved that part of the problem.

At our agency we have discussed this problem and our preference would be to disable streetlights using 40mm extended impact rounds, or, if you have 12 ga beanbag rounds, then using those, instead of slugs. 

The above is not a criticism of DB, in fact, I always learn from his posts, and it's nice to see him posting here again.

 

SFF posted:

This question has come up previously on this board ("find me a real world case of select slug being used").  Yes it's happened, but it's rare. 

That being said, should one still be able to do it?  YES.



And, I'm probably the one who asked it, too. 

I posted this because the collective we should be validating what we teach, know the whys behind the techniques. Tactical reloads and failure drills have been knocked by some, yet there are clearly identifiable events that support their use while explaining, on occasion, how they came to be. 

If we are going to spend time teaching a skill, I just want to know that the skill is valid and has application off the range. 

I'm not disagreeing with you, just explaining the why for my asking. 

I read DBs long post then the page refreshed and an error popped up..  pow it was gone.

 

We loaded  buck and had slugs. Now 12ga is all LL. I have a personal  AR, but theres still times slugs or buck would be handy, especially around cars. Had to search a car impound lot for a possibly armed guy last week. Wasn't complaining about my AR but an 870 full of slugs would have been nice.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

My academy taught slugs as the default way back in the dark ages (1989) and had for several years before that. Buck was considered to be limited use specialty ammo. We didn't even get exposed to "select slug" as a result.

I think that the "Mary drill" experience is far too likely, as it IMHO a relatively complex operation, hard to do under such shitty circumstances. I'll bet a lot of money that most of us would have done little if any better under those conditions. I'm sure I would not have, and in recognition of that ... default to slugs still in the shotgun.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Any contrarians who argue the value of buckshot as a primary load in the slide gun?  Any concerns about over-penetration from a missed slug round?  We authorize both slugs and buckshot to be loaded into the weapon (though we discourage mixed ammunition in the magazine).  We have not done select slug drills in in-service.  Indeed, our limited shotgun training results in slide gun qualifications looking like the alignment of monkeys, football, and fornication.  That said, we intend to step up shotgun training after last year's horrifying display.

I'm currently loading my gauge with issue Flitecontrol buckshot, but am considering switching to slugs.

The good thing about buck is that it spreads.  This can get you some hits that you otherwise wouldn't get.

The bad thing about buck is that it spreads, which gives you misses, and they will travel until they hit SOMETHING or SOMEONE.

Plus, with most shotshells and slugs, you also have an additional projectile to be concerned about, the wad (not with Brenneke slugs, though). 

The other thing about buck, is that you have to AIM it like slugs at short distances (10 yds and in), esp with the tighter patterning buck.

From what I've been told, Seattle PD was using flight control but they were still concerned about flyers, so they are now all slugs.  Mabye DirtySanchez can verify this?

When I carried a 870 in my car next to my rifle, I kept it loaded with all Brenneke slugs, all the time.  Good at 1 yd, good at many yards, no switching loads required. 

There's a lot that can go wrong with slug select drills, esp when under stress, in the dark, wounded, etc.

In training, I've seen people (even self proclaimed skilled shotgun users) drop shells, insert shells partially and induce a feedway stoppage, insert shells backwards into the chamber and magazine.  As JNC mentions above, total goatfuck.  The more manipulation, the more things to go wrong.  User induced stoppages with a pump shotgun are highly problematic and actually a good reason to use a self-loader (I've owned several different ones and prefer a Benelli M2 with rifle sights, even though it kicks harder than a wood stocked 870.  ). 

If I could guarantee short range engagements, then I would use all buckshot, but then there is that thing about aiming being required.  Just like a slug. 

Slugs simplify things tremendously, but I'd rather have a carbine for all around use.  It's just easier.

Some slugs have lot more penetration than others.  Do your research and make an informed decision.

Past 50 yds, some slugs have a lot more drop than others.   Esp reduced recoil slugs.  Do your research, know your holdovers.  

And of course slugs beat you up in training.  You can mitigate this somewhat by making the weapon heavier and using reduced recoil slugs.  I don't think you will notice it so much when under great stress though..  

We no longer use shotguns at our agency, apart from ballistic breaching, which is of course a secondary to mechanical breaching.  I'd rather hit a door with a ram than a breaching shotgun. 

SFF posted:

If stuck in CA, NY, etc. I would strongly recommend getting really, really, really good with a shotgun. 

Since you are in CA, maybe try to take a class from Scott Reitz (ITTS). 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Re: Scott Reitz.

I rock a mini 14 and a shotgun.

Ive always been a shotgun guy...I just now have access to a private range (free) now I'm gonna get more shooting time in.

Also, speaking of changing ammo...that's where shotgun Velcro cards come in strong

Thanks man

Living in SoCal so yes I agree to improve shotgun skills.  I recommend Scotty Reitz as others have and to include TFTT and Max Joseph.  Ive taken classes from both and learned a lot from each.  Heck if you are local, hit me up and Ill train with ya.

trunk posted:

Living in SoCal so yes I agree to improve shotgun skills.  I recommend Scotty Reitz as others have and to include TFTT and Max Joseph.  Ive taken classes from both and learned a lot from each.  Heck if you are local, hit me up and Ill train with ya.

Ive taken TFTT PSD course and Tac 1 pistol.

Hell yeah...getting together sounds good...im up in Rowland Heights, CA

Damn, Best counsel you're down the street from where i grew up. I used to shop at Tuans Guns. Keeping it on topic, i also bought my first two shotguns there...

 

I discovered how fun loading a 12ga under minor stress is when i attempted to  load a LL 870 while walking up a stairwell a few weeks back... need more practice. 

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

MrMurphy posted:

Damn, Best counsel you're down the street from where i grew up. I used to shop at Tuans Guns. Keeping it on topic, i also bought my first two shotguns there...

 

I discovered how fun loading a 12ga under minor stress is when i attempted to  load a LL 870 while walking up a stairwell a few weeks back... need more practice. 

I live around the block from where Tuans was.

Yeah, shotgun is a beast to work with at times....

bestcounsel posted:

Thanks guys for these posts...im not a LEO but this post is important to me being in Cali...

Made me really rethink loads on the shotty...

 

 

People can bag on the shotgun all they want ... right up until they end up in a place like CA. Bestcounsel, glad you are thinking that way. 

jnc - if I hadn't spent the amount of time I have with patrol rifles, or they weren't available to me, I'd still be a big shotgun fan. I'd add a one shot extention, load the tube with 4rds of 00Buck, and fill the side saddle with slugs. Add a micro chest rig and do work with that. 

While i have been in the free world for 17 years, I've got relatives in MA, CT, NY, etc who are not so free. So while generally I'm a rifle guy, a 12ga full of 00 for close in problems still has a place, with slugs for the other stuff if i don't have a rifle handy.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

I took Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class about 15 years ago (man, time flies). He said he'd gone to 100% slugs for his personal guns. If I recall correctly, the reasoning was:

1) You don't have to worry about which gun throws what pattern with which load (I think this was the main one. We did some patterning during class, and the variations from the same gun with different loads were really eye-opening).

2) Slugs will handle any situation buck will.

3) You don't have to juggle different kinds of ammo. Keeping a shotgun loaded during a fight is hard enough without having to pick from a selection of different loads. 

There was also the concern of stray pellets with buck. They can still injure out past 100 yards. 

At the FBI firearms instructor course I recently attended, they were discussing their agencies move away from 00 buck and fielding only slugs for their shotguns.

Apparently this is being driven by their extensive testing and specifically the resulting over penetration of the 00 buck vs. the slug.

Take it for what its worth but as has already been state, there's not a whole lot that can be done with 00 that a slug cant be utilized and at a longer range.

"Without training they lack knowlege, without knowlege they lack discipline , without discipline they lack victory"

 

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Joined: October 2, 2007

Total thread drift ... If one is limited to a shotgun, there are benefits (i think significant) to shot loads. IF the shooter is willing to learn the pros / cons and work on them. Know the pattern, engagement zones based on your actual pattern, backstop issues, engaging moving threats in reduced light. 

From shooting vehicles and range-built walls, I'd be concerned about a slug over penetrating than I would be shot loads. The slug's ability to punch through barriers is why I'm choosing it in certain circumstances. 

I still think there are a lot of people that haven't spent enough time with the platform to understand it well enough to teach it. I'm not arguing with the instructors named in the thread so far, its more directed at agency instructors who haven't gotten training beyond the state POST minimum. 

And ... Fisher has been heard from. Short version, all 00B all the time. 

jnc36rcpd posted:

Any contrarians who argue the value of buckshot as a primary load in the slide gun?  Any concerns about over-penetration from a missed slug round?  We authorize both slugs and buckshot to be loaded into the weapon (though we discourage mixed ammunition in the magazine).  We have not done select slug drills in in-service.  Indeed, our limited shotgun training results in slide gun qualifications looking like the alignment of monkeys, football, and fornication.  That said, we intend to step up shotgun training after last year's horrifying display.

I'm currently loading my gauge with issue Flitecontrol buckshot, but am considering switching to slugs.

Yes.

My patrol car has vertical mounted rifle and shotgun.

My go-to is the rifle for a few reasons, but a 00 loaded shotgun *** to me *** absolutely has merit: building searches where it's just cops and robbers inside. If you have no real worries about contacting an innocent person or over-penetration than again *** to me *** an 00 loaded shotgun is great.  That's what I have it loaded for as that's the most likely scenario in which I'd choose it  

As far as "slug select", I've got a Benelli SuperNova that is now outfitted better than the PD shotguns so I'm allowed to tote it along. It has the "shell stop" button that lets me eject the chamber but not load from the tube. I carry a 7-round ESSTAC card loaded with slugs velcroed on the receiver.

If it's a job where I think I'll need to load a slug to reach out, then I would have grabbed the rifle first anyway.  The only time I'll be "slug selecting" is if I'm caught by surprise.

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

I have read this topic a few times and I have a nagging recollection of an officer in or around Nashville switching to a slug to deal with a fleeing robber who had taken a hostage.  This would have been 10+ years ago.

As mentioned above, shotgun handling must be practiced.  I have put on some home defense/low light shooting events at my gun club.  Shooter starts with magazine loaded with birdshot, engaging steel.  Then, has to load a slug to shoot a paper target with a no-shoot partially blocking the hostile.  It's interesting to watch experienced clay target shooters trying to figure out how to get the slug in the chamber, where the only pressure is a shot timer.

JRW2nTN posted:

I have read this topic a few times and I have a nagging recollection of an officer in or around Nashville switching to a slug to deal with a fleeing robber who had taken a hostage.  This would have been 10+ years ago.

Your memory is correct. A very detailed account of it was provided to me by someone in the know. 

We still train the select load drill for the 870, as it is the only long gun issued to everyone in the agency.  Its a four shot tube, 18 inch barrel. There are rifles, both issued GI surplus and personally owned, but cops being cheap bastards and lazy a lot of the time will not often go out of the way to buy one.  That aside, we have some ass backwards policies with the shotguns.

The shotguns carry 4 buckshot and 4 slugs (Federal reduced recoil flite-control, and reduced recoil rifle slug).  Only one type may be loaded in the tube, the others are carried in a Fudd style Speedfeed stock.  The cars have 10 more buckshot.  So the only intermediate range ammo we have for the shotgun is the four slugs.  It has been that way for years.  Obviously, that's not great, so we have been working to change it, and eventually we will be transitioning all of the ammo over to the Winchester segmented slug instead, because:

1) Collectively we can only remember once where a select load drill was performed and used in a shooting.  Unfortunately, we have no way to track how many times it had been performed before.  I only have done it once (when I was real new and didn't have a rifle yet) for a felony stop.  After that I carried slugs loaded in the tube until I got the rifle, which is common here.  Since then I have done it twice to dispatch deer and an elk.

2) Everyone wants more slugs, but there is some heavy resistance from a few guys at the top of the ivory tower to issue them.  Snooping through budgets shows it might have to do with the fact they accidentally ordered twice as much buckshot in the last 6 years that we needed, and we have literal tons of it on hand.

3) and the more important reason to us in firearms training ... the select load drill is a real shitshow with a lot of people under any kind of stress.  Some people can't get it done in under 5 seconds without problems.  Even "good" shotgun guys have messed it up.  Its one of those fine motor skills things, which with training could be made better, but we are talking about cops here ... they already know everything, have Facebook to look at, and "will never be in a shooting with a shotgun anyways."  Its bad enough hearing the bitching about them having to clean the lead from the barrel after shooting the shotgun.  Granted, not all are like this, and its a lazy few - but they are a very loud minority.

4) to get rifles, you have to go through a class, and those can be infrequent in the outlying areas (state agency if I never mentioned it).  So until a guy can get through the class, he can't carry a rifle, issued or personally owned, and he is stuck with the shotgun.

We are hoping that by going to one type of ammo, the segmented slug we can eliminate the circus of the select load drill, and extend the fighting range of the shotguns for everyone.  I don't think the segmented slug is the best thing in the world, and probably lies somewhere around a passable slug and workable buckshot for our people.  Once we use up all the buckshot in inventory we will purchase the new stuff, and use the old slugs for training.

Like a lot of guys in this thread, I grab my rifle most of the time, particularly if I am going to need to shoot at anything further than traffic stop distance.

CSPartan posted:


1) Collectively we can only remember once where a select load drill was performed and used in a shooting.  Unfortunately, we have no way to track how many times it had been performed before.  I only have done it once (when I was real new and didn't have a rifle yet) for a felony stop.  After that I carried slugs loaded in the tube until I got the rifle, which is common here.  Since then I have done it twice to dispatch deer and an elk.



Do you have the circumstances? Distance? Performed before the shot needed to be taken or executed on the fly? 

Erick posted:
CSPartan posted:


1) Collectively we can only remember once where a select load drill was performed and used in a shooting.  Unfortunately, we have no way to track how many times it had been performed before.  I only have done it once (when I was real new and didn't have a rifle yet) for a felony stop.  After that I carried slugs loaded in the tube until I got the rifle, which is common here.  Since then I have done it twice to dispatch deer and an elk.



Do you have the circumstances? Distance? Performed before the shot needed to be taken or executed on the fly? 

I will send a message to the ivory tower guys tomorrow and see if I can get that information.  They *should* have it, as they have been working on this segmented slug proposal for a while now.  We will see if they deem me worthy enough of answering though ... 

Great info here and sorry to drum up an old thread but it seems like everyone here is referring mostly to police work which can involve long distances. What about home defense? Do most of you still grab for the rifle? I live in a smaller home in densely populated urban area. So no big backyards or ranches near me. Anything that happens here is very up close and personal.

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