Shotguns & select-slug drill?

Considering your location, a shotgun with buck would be my choice as rifles are highly restricted for you. I grew up in L.A and moved to the free world. After spending my adult life with the M16, i pick an AR with good ammo first. 

 

Restricted to a purely urban scenario, Federal Flite Control in the tube with a few slugs available is not a bad option. I now live on acres with neighbors 200-500 yards away, rifles are the best.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Yeah I still struggle with which would be best:

-14.5” AR with a pinned flash hider and fixed mag (bullet button) holding 10 rounds of TAP 75gr T2

-M590A1 with 7 rounds of buck and a side saddle

Something tells me that the likelihood of being able to effectively reload in a home break in scenario would be highly difficult with either set up considering I’d probably be woken up in middle of the night and under a lot of stress. 

I wouldn’t want to get hit with a TAP T2 or 00 but I like that I can rip off a few rounds with the AR very accurately whereas the shotgun requires pumps and heavy recoil. I also have formal training with AR and not shotgun

 

 

Consider each to be equally effective. There are not many LE gunfights in the US in which a fast long gun reload was a decisive factor.

That said:

In your case, the 590 is relatively easy to reload, but the bullet button AR is not something that is easily reloaded.

Training on the gauge is easy enough to come by. Recoil and action management are easily engrained in a 2-4 day class.

If you are worried about distance, slugs can do pretty fair work past 100 with good ghost ring sights or a RDS.

I am a died in the wool rifleman, and don't have a lot of use for the gauge, but in your situation, I would pick the gauge six days a week and twice on Sunday.

Good training and low recoil defensive ammo cuts 12ga recoil significantly.  

 

While never a Mini fan, in your particular case a Mini 14 w good ammo, a light and optic would be better than a bullet button. HD use is not a 1500 round training class.  

 

Depending where in L.A you live I'd still take the shotgun the majority of the time.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

To clarify: this was mostly related to the inquiry from FALZ24, which is a drift that I took farther.

While I am better and more recently trained with the AR (thank you, Uncle Pat), I did have good foundation training with the shotgun and I am adequately comfortable with either. (My academy taught slugs as the default and buck as specialized, so ... I select slug by loading them into the tube.) As much as I hate having to take this position, I think the politics of using anything that even looks like what California refers to as an "assault rifle" or whatever their fucked up totally incorrect nomenclature is will present an unnecessary complication to the analysis of any shooting in which you are involved. That is utter shit from a legal perspective; justified is justified, but a risk worthy of consideration in your situation. It is unfortunate for many reasons, not the least of which is that the addition of useful accessories such as a flashlight and RDS is more difficult.

I harp about issues related to home defense on another forum and will paste in my most recent stuff on the topic:

1) ALWAYS CALL 911 unless it precludes the necessary response under tight time lines. Period. You want the record made that you are the first to call and express concern for your well-being. I know of 2 cases in the Spokane area (one city, one ... rural county near Liberty Lake, or maybe in Liberty Lake) in the last few years in which the encounter was recorded due to the phone line being open. In those cases, the recording showed that the complainant/victim was correct and telling it like it was, and the deceased offender was in fact the problem. Made the victims' lives suck a lot less.

2) Even under the best of conditions, LE response time is not likely to be adequate, so don't rely solely on LE.

3) Your doors should be unlocked only to pass through them. Period. Never open the door to anyone until you are sure of who they are and you know it is a good idea. Don't be afraid to yell through a locked door. For the love of all that is holy, do not go outside unless they have lit your house on fire. Stay inside, and make the offender really show that they are really dangerous. That will improve your personal and legal defense situation. If you break this rule, pay someone to administer slap therapy until you have un(screwed) yourself.

4) Layers, darn it, layers.
a) Fence of at least 6 feet as close to the property line as possible, with a locked gate. If your local code or some silly homeowner's association precludes that, move. Anyone who needs to come to your house has your phone number. Anyone who gets offended by that is probably not someone you need in your life. Beat this into your head: no one has a right not to be offended; if you are not willing to offend people who are not welcome at your home to ensure they feel unwelcome, hire R. Lee Ermey to help you overcome that problem.
b) Floodlights as needed, with timers or motion detectors as you prefer.
c) Dogs. Any dog that is alert and makes noise is a great warning and good company. Medium or larger breeds (65+ pounds) make deeper barks, and some number of offenders will be uninterested in finding out if that deep bark includes a real risk of a bite. We're rott fans; there are other good breeds. I'm inclined to Boerboels, Ridgebacks, Bullmastiffs, Mastiffs, Danes and the like. If you truly NEVER have company and can stand a dog that loves you and the rest of your household and HATES everyone else ... Fila. That's a serious commitment - Filas are not even close to public safe. Bozo wore a muzzle for a reason.

5) Gun stuff:
a) Know the law of your state with regard to defense of self and defense of home. Know it well.
b) Learn as much as you can about pre-attack indicators. Big one: Anyone who does not immediately comply when told to leave, show you their hands, etc. is likely to be a serious problem. Ask, tell, make - a 3 second or so process. Cops know this - that's why if a person does not forthwith comply with arrest/detention directions has to have an immediate application of force necessary to control them.
c) Have a good grasp of ballistic effects on humans and where to aim. (Short version: pistols suck. Plan on shooting someone a lot of times to get them to stop.)If you do not own a copy of "Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, “In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force” (3rd edition, 2017), buy it. Although mostly LE directed and specific, most private citizens need to understand why cops do what they do and what the legal issues are, and the ballistic knowledge and other pieces of the book can be useful by analogy.
d) Whatever firearms you own, be proficient with them. Good hits with a .22 won't be perfect, but the offender will not feel or perform better and that's better than a miss with the beast you can't shoot well. Have lights on them if possible. Both of my long guns do. Handheld flashlights are also your friend. Bright, best quality ones.
e) Don't settle for the training that came in the box.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Falz24 posted:

Do most of you still grab for the rifle?

I like the shotgun but  then I've been using  shotguns for about 50 years.  If legal climate  views them equally, I think it really boils down to what gun  you have the most experience on and can run with subconscious thought.

For a house gun I want some pattern spread and  shot  until I found a load that produced consistent patterns of 6-8" at the longest distance in my house. 

Doug  your post should  be included with every gun purchased for home defense.

Amazing the number of people who don't use the door locks and then pay the cost.

 

 

I'm the opposite, i want a tight pattern, no flyers. It might be a hallway howitzer but I've seen how weird shot patterns can be. I'll take consistently tight than a "typically xxx inch" pattern.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Thank you Doug and others for the replies. Your advice is spot on for people coming to your front door and is EXACTLY what is happening in LA. You should watch this music video by local LA rapper YG (careful you might lose your lunch):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h1db3Npg4xo

I just moved in to my first home with my fiancé and my home is very vulnerable compared to apartment living where the only way in is a front door. I admittedly need to secure this place which will take time but a fence is on the to do list. I work in home security so will be putting in a high quality security system this week.

Doug - I am surprised German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois are not on your list. Is there a reason why? Currently have chihuahuas haha but want a big dog for the home especially when the fiancé is here alone in afternoons while I’m at work.

I'm late to the revival, but for those in restricted states such as CA, have you considered the "NY reload" for home defense, i.e. a second shotgun?  They aren't that expensive and most of the time, you should have taken a defensive position.  Check your home, distances, angles, choke points and where you might have someone you need to protect in case you have to move towards the bad guy rather than making him come to you.  The latter is preferred if you can do it.  Call the PD and take up a defensive position where you at least have some concealment if not cover, and wait for him to come through the choke point/doorway/fatal funnel.  If you are concerned about the reload time, have a 2nd shotgun to grab in the event you run the first one empty.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Mals are hyper and require a lot of work on a daily basis. Any dog will do as an alarm, if it barks when needed and not at "everything" .

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Falz24 posted:

Thank you Doug and others for the replies.

Doug - I am surprised German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois are not on your list. Is there a reason why? Currently have chihuahuas haha but want a big dog for the home especially when the fiancé is here alone in afternoons while I’m at work.

Personal bias, mostly. We're simply more accustomed to the Molosser type breeds and have found them to be generally easier to deal with. We have a Tervueren, which another of the Belgian Shepherds. She's a good girl, but as noted the Belgians tend to be hyper/high-strung and to need a lot of work. She had been purchased by a contractor we've used, and he could not handle her hyper nature, so we adopted her. To us, with our prior dogs, she is in fact quite unlike any dog we have had. I have nothing against the GSD, Belgian, or Dutch Shepherd, but it can be harder to get a decent example without a lot of work and expense, and the ones I have seen take a ton of training. My old agency had a rigid prohibition on K9 officers having anything but GSDs for patrol because of difficulties with the Malinois candidates. 

One advantage of the bigger dogs is that 100+ pound dogs hit hard in a way that is hard to replicate with the mid-sized breeds, yet tend to have more calm temperaments. We have done pretty well with rescues, personally, but there are risks, which can be made worse by the unknowns of personality. Bozo was lucky we adopted him; the rescue thought (reasonably) that he was RottXDane. I happened to pick up on some indicia of Fila blood before he matured completely into his temperament. A decent Fila is great in the house; affectionate and easy to handle for its family, but simple vile with strangers. Even knowing what the standard said, his hatred for strangers was amazing to see.

You are close enough that checking out Rottsoffriends Rescue in Woodland (near Sacramento) is feasible. (My definition of feasible is broad - it was 12 hours one way for us.) Renee is a retired K9 cop, and completely devoid of BS. We had gone to look at Rhino, who is an odd looking duck (RottXBoerboel). He was wonderful with us, but crappy with Mya and probably needs to be an only dog. It's sad; he's going to be hard to place and may live there all of his life. If you can snag him, please do! He may need some work to fit in, due to being found running wild and then being in rescue now for most of 2 years, but he has potential.

Renee came up with Ted, a Rott X Australian Shepherd as far as we can tell, probably .75 Rott. His early life sucked, and he brought some serious baggage, but after a year he had really done well an adapting. He can be weird with people, but LOVES and is fascinated with other dogs and all critters as far as I can tell.

- - - -
Never be biased. Get to know people, and then hate them for objective reasons. They will almost always give you plenty.

www.routledge.com/9781138302969 (NOTE: Live Link)

Australian cattle dogs are smart, loyal, not Mal hyper, and make good family yet guard dogs. I grew up with one.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Has anyone seen the new 870 Detachable Magazine yet? To soon to tell, but it could be a viable alternative to the Saiga & other Mag-Fed Shotguns:

 

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

You can set up a shotgun for a fraction of the price it would take to set up an AR. If I was very limited on a budget I'd certainly be looking for a 870/500/590, and learn how to run it like a war god.

Interesting, think that was the first time my comments have been edited by a mod. Oh well.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

MrMurphy posted:

Australian cattle dogs are smart, loyal, not Mal hyper, and make good family yet guard dogs. I grew up with one.

...and like to herd things around...including children & infantry trainees if nothing else is available.

Brock01 posted:

You can set up a shotgun for a fraction of the price it would take to set up an AR. If I was very limited on a budget I'd certainly be looking for a 870/500/590, and learn how to run it like a war god.

Interesting, think that was the first time my comments have been edited by a mod. Oh well.

And there was a significant, and injudicious use of language in your comment that didn't exist in past postings.  You don't understand that?

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai posted:
Brock01 posted:

You can set up a shotgun for a fraction of the price it would take to set up an AR. If I was very limited on a budget I'd certainly be looking for a 870/500/590, and learn how to run it like a war god.

Interesting, think that was the first time my comments have been edited by a mod. Oh well.

And there was a significant, and injudicious use of language in your comment that didn't exist in past postings.  You don't understand that?

I didn't really see it as injudicious. I figured with the character of individuals who frequent this forum, a joke could be picked up on. I suppose I figured wrong. Regardless, I'm not trying to pick a fight here, which is why the "oh well" was thrown in there.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

We (Lightfighters) may get the joke, but this is a public and searchable forum.

That is attention that is unnecessary and unwanted, especially for such a  stupid comment.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

bodhisattvya posted:

Has anyone seen the new 870 Detachable Magazine yet? To soon to tell, but it could be a viable alternative to the Saiga & other Mag-Fed Shotguns:

I've never been excited by any detachable mag shotguns I've used. Have shot the USAS 12, Saiga, Valtro, and maybe more I cannot recall. It's a /really/ big mag or drum, so I have never thought the mag changes were nearly as convenient as those for any rifle cartridge and you'd be better off learning a tube-fed gun (or changing platforms). 

But if your thing and state-legal, there's the Sidewinder (the old Knox one which I have also shot, and the oddly-similar-but-incompatible Adaptive Tactical one) for the Mossberg also. Even for the price, added to a used shotgun otherwise set up well, you are cheaper than any quality carbine. 

 

P.S. I missed the comment before it was edited so have no stake, but can we take that argument to PMs before it totally ruins the thread? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Comments regarding the comment are over.  No more comments regarding comments about the comment either.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I am not a fan of mag fed shotguns, primarily because you can’t leave the mags loaded for long periods of time like metallic cartridges. The spring pressure deforms the shells and can cause feeding issues.

Maybe the new mags on the Remington offering alleviate this issue, but maybe not.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

High Exposure posted:

I am not a fan of mag fed shotguns, primarily because you can’t leave the mags loaded for long periods of time like metallic cartridges. The spring pressure deforms the shells and can cause feeding issues.

Maybe the new mags on the Remington offering alleviate this issue, but maybe not.

Didn't know that! Another reason I can hate them now

I believe I recall on disassembly some of the drums have a lot of shell guidance (shell is largely surrounded by a cut out guide front and back or along the whole length like this), but does anyone know if they are under constant spring pressure so deform at those points, or are more controlled (drive mechanism only pushes the shells when the top one is fed) so can be left loaded? 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

The new 870 DBM supposedly holds 6 per mag. I wouldn't want to leave them loaded for a year at a time what with shell deformation etc. But as a rapid reload bear gun or swap load on the fly breacher, it could be useful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Here’s another option that may make this whole discussion moot - 

The Winchester Segmented slug.

I recently got to check this thing out at a Winchester Ballistic Demo. 

It surprised the hell out of me and I have a case on order to do further testing.

The idea is smart - up close (inside about 30 yards) and into soft surfaces (flesh, drywall) the slug has enough velocity to fragment into three chunks. Each chunk is about the size and weight of a .40 S&W. The chunks penetrate about 13” into calibrated ballistic gel.

Outside of 30 yards, or if the slug hits something hard up close (like auto glass or the skin on a car door) the slug doesn’t break into chunks and acts like a normal 1oz rifled slug.

__________________________________
"Experienced cops don't have 'hunches'. They have superior observational and analytical skills which allow them to make the connection between otherwise innocuous facts, and take appropriate action to assess that perception."

~ Doug Mitchell

 

Life is Good!


Joined: 03/08/2008     Location: Sandy Hook, NJ

Dorsai posted:

Comments regarding the comment are over.  No more comments regarding comments about the comment either.

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

-----------------------------------

What is left when honor is lost?

High Exposure posted:

Here’s another option that may make this whole discussion moot - 

The Winchester Segmented slug.

I recently got to check this thing out at a Winchester Ballistic Demo. 

It surprised the hell out of me and I have a case on order to do further testing.

The idea is smart - up close (inside about 30 yards) and into soft surfaces (flesh, drywall) the slug has enough velocity to fragment into three chunks. Each chunk is about the size and weight of a .40 S&W. The chunks penetrate about 13” into calibrated ballistic gel.

Outside of 30 yards, or if the slug hits something hard up close (like auto glass or the skin on a car door) the slug doesn’t break into chunks and acts like a normal 1oz rifled slug.

HE thx for bringing this to my attn. & counting on your updates while ya are working thru that case.

Anyone seen Gary Roberts around to weigh in on this Win. offering?

Joined: 3.28.09            

Location: NETX

On the Remington DBM: That would be a great big wait and see for me. The mag makes it a bit unweildy, and given big green's QC issues of late with the proven design of the original 870, I'm not ready to sign on as a beta tester for an "improved" version.

On the Winchester SS: The local rep for them pimped it hard to us about two years ago. We went to a gel shoot, and it did what they claimed in the protocols I saw. I bought a case to try further. If memory serves, it was not as accurate as the federal we issued, recoil and flash were significantly more, and we had just come out of a bad experience with their QC with training ammo (although the SS had no problems)

I sent Doc Roberts 25 rounds of it to run through his tests, but I'm not sure if he has gotten around to them yet, as I haven't heard. The silence may be a clue. I was leery of it simply because of the "magic bullet" hype Winchester spun it as. I sure as hell wouldn't want to get shot with one, but that goes for pretty much any round.

FWIW, my house gauge is loaded with number 1 buck. Somewhat reduced chance of over penetration and 16 .30 caliber balls. Whatever you choose, I would recommend a good one or two day course (you ought to be close to Scott Reitz if I'm LA) and test your load against a medium similar to the walls of your house.

Location: North Carolina

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