This is how I would configure M500’s for the Army. 


Top is the full size. Magpul stock which has has spacers you can add/remove for use with body armor. I’d a T2 over an RMR and Velcro w/ shotgun cards over the Aridus Industries QD-C if I were fielding this to a Company + sized element, there’s just more important things to spend money on and magazine pouch compatibility is a thing. 

4585E0CD-0CFC-4203-A28E-578A271BF1B1

Shorty is overkill but I don’t like relying on just a helmet light for breaching illumination. I’d do a magnetic weapons catch for the shorty nowadays. 

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

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Odd, maybe an interesting story about training for the shotgun in one role NOT carrying over to another.

By the time the NG (enhanced) separate INF brigade I was in mobilized for OIF, I'd had about 14 yrs of L/E shotgun work, training plus classes on it from LASD-SEB, Gunsite, Awerbuck, Jeans, & Reitz. The real short version? Take a shot, IMMEDIATELY run the action, IMMEDIATELY, and reload the tube as soon as the situation allows.

So, we get to the portion of the mobilization training that covered shotgun breaching. There's a wee bit of difference in how the 'gun is run. The shotgun didn't have a round chambered until the "Breacher Up!" call is made and the breacher is in position. After the shot, the action is not run until another shot has to be made. You're intentionally running around off-safe with an empty hull in the chamber. Even talking myself through it out loud, I kept running the action right away.

Completely foreign to all of my shotgun experience, training. Guess who was never going to carry the breaching gun?

As Chappy says: Cops Help Cops! 

Then, Don't Be A Blue Falcon

 

Joined: November 2002

Erick posted:

 was shot by a shotgun & one pellet missed. I scanned what Bill had in his student manual. I saw a post somewhere the other day that depicted the death of a 60s rioter/looter as well as a wounded subject downrange - again hit by a stray pellet.

In no way making light of the real dangers of stray pellets but it would be interesting to see the risk percentage of  stray rounds/pellets when comparing actual shootings with shotguns vs rifle/handgun.

For instance in the shooting discussed in this thread there were 7rnds unaccounted vs ?? compared to the shotgun.  Considering if only half a load of 8 pellet OO hit the target that would have reduced unaccounted hits by 3 in this incident.

I know it wouldn't make any of us feel better but is the risk of stray pellets statistically more probably in real shootings?   Unfortunately, I know of no data that would provide this info.

 

There is no left or right.

There is only tyranny or freedom. 

stray round posted:
Erick posted:
 

I know it wouldn't make any of us feel better but is the risk of stray pellets statistically more probably in real shootings?   Unfortunately, I know of no data that would provide this info.

 

That question was one of the reasons I started this thread.

If you're shooting a bad guy with a rifle or pistol, the officer is generally trying to hit the target with each shot fired.  We know that there will be misses, but they are not intentional.

But with buckshot, if shooting at any distance beyond 15 or 25 yards, or whatever distance dependent on barrel/choke/ammunition combination, we can guarantee that there will be at least 1, if not more misses.  Is that acceptable?

Proponents of buckshot will say Yes, a miss is a miss.  The benefits of not having to be exactly on target (pray and spray?) outweigh the risks of downrange collateral damage.

Opponents of buckshot say No, it's not, because collateral damage is not acceptable; officers are supposed to be aiming at suspects to eliminate collateral damage.

And while there's no hard data, or at least any hard data that is within my grasp, this thread has been valuable for at least making us think about it.  I don't know if we will ever come to a definitive, scientific conclusion.  But I like the discussion.

It was my understanding that the "stray pellet" concern is why the eight pellet LE shells are gaining popularity in certain circles, being that often it was the ninth pellet that was usually the flyer? It would seem for LE organizations that by dept. policy are restricted to using just  buckshot in their gauges that either mandating the use of Federal's Flite Control LE 133 00 or that all of that department's  shotguns receiving the Vang Comp treatment would go a long way in reducing a department's liability concerns.

"Enlisted men are stupid but they are sly & crafty and bear considerable watching."

Excerpt from the U.S. Army Officer's Manual 1884. 

 

Home: Anytown, USA

HazardZetForward posted:
  The benefits of not having to be exactly on target (pray and spray?) outweigh the risks of downrange collateral damage.
 
But I like the discussion.

Me to. 

The things that were notably absent from our shotgun training for a couple of decades were any reference to anything but aimed shots with the sights aligned or the bead and receiver 'sight plane' properly indexed/lined up.

 

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