TACOM says PMAGs are BAD, Bobby Boucher! Roll Eyes

quote:
TACOM LCMC MI 12-021 M4-M16 Improved Magazine and the Use of Commercial Magazines
Originator: /C=US/O=U.S.
GOVERNMENT/OU=DOD/OU=ARMY/OU=ORGANIZATIONS/L=CONUS/L=WARREN
MI/OU=TACOM/OU=TACOM SAFETYOFUSE(UC)
DTG: 301307Z Apr 12
Precedence: PRIORITY
DAC: General

//UNCLASSIFIED//
Subject: Maintenance Information (MI) Message, TACOM Life Cycle Management
Command, (TACOM LCMC) Control No. MI: 12-039, M4/M16 Improved Magazine NSN
1005-01-561-7200, Part Number: 13021312, Cage Code: 19200, Old Magazine NSN
1005-00-921-5004, Part Number: 2411362962382, Cage Code: 13629, and the use
of commercial magazines. End Items: M16A2 NSN 1005-01-128-9936, M16A3 NSN
1005-01-357-5112, M16A4 NSN 1005-01-383-2872, M4 NSN 1005-01-231-0973, and
M4A1 NSN 1005-01-382-0953.

1. Distribution:
a. This is a Maintenance Information (MI) Message. Commanders/Directors
of Army Commands (ACOM)/Army Service Component Commands (ASCC)/Direct
Reporting Units (DRU), Army National Guard (ARNG), US Army Reserve (USAR)
Command, US Navy (USN), US Air Force (USAF), US Marine Corps (USMC) and
other Service Commanders and Responsible Offices will retransmit this
message to all subordinate Commanders/Activities.
b. This message will be available on the Safety First Web Site located
on the TACOM Unique Logistics Support Applications (TULSA) portal within
twenty-four hours of transmission. Access to the Safety First Web Site
requires CAC Card authentication. You must first request access to the
Safety First Web Site. To request access click here
https://tulsa.tacom.army.mil. For assistance, email the TULSA Helpdesk at
tacom-lcmc.ilsc_tulsa@mail.mil. The Safety First Web Site also has the
capability to email Safety and Maintenance messages directly to your inbox.
To subscribe to the mailing list, click on, E-Mail Subscriptions, on the
Navigation bar.

2. Issue: TACOM has become aware of units ordering 30 rd. commercial (i.e.
polymer, etc.) magazines for their M4/M16 family of weapons. The M4/M16 Army
authorized magazines are the following: NSN 1005-00-561-7200 (improved
magazine) and NSN 1005-00-921-5004 (older magazine; use until exhaustion).

3. User Actions: TM 9-1005-319-10, the Additional Authorized List (AAL),
states that NSN 1005-00-921-5004 is authorized, as well as NSN
1005-00-561-7200. Units may use the older magazine NSN 1005-00-921-5004
with the green follower until exhausted. The improved magazine is available
in stock, NSN 1005-00-561-7200, and has a tan follower. The improved
magazine features an improved follower and follower spring. These new
features help to reduce the risk of magazine-related stoppages. Units are only authorized to use the Army authorized magazines listed in the technical manuals. Remember; "tan-is the plan, green-start to lean, black-take it
back." Magazines with the black follower are the oldest and should be turned
in to your unit supply sergeant or local supply point.

4. Unit Commanders, contact your local TACOM LCMC Logistics Assistance
Representative (LAR) or your State Surface Maintenance Manager upon receipt
of this message for assistance. For assistance in locating your TACOM LCMC
LAR, see below.
Original Post
Maybe he means the Thermold mags Roll Eyes

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

So does this mean AAFES is going to stop selling PMags? Frown

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“You hear folks say all the time; ‘well, human beings don’t have a bullseye.’ So?! FIND ONE!” Matt E

"Just to be clear gents...it's a no shit, true story. The shit a grown man gets in to..." Gruntpain1775

quote:
Maybe he means the Thermold mags


I can hope... I would have thought everyone got the word on those years ago.

Funny how they'll prohibit something that works and yet Soldiers are almost required to buy a POS SERPA for the pistol...

I don't get big Green's logic sometimes...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure TACOM is going to get flat ignored on this one. I KNOW I'm gonna get an officer getting bent out of shape about P-Mags.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

I was issued Pmags, with an NSN, less than 6 months ago.

10 bucks says the reason for this is somebody heard, from their brothers-cousins-best-friends-girlfriend's-uncle that a mag "just melted away in the desert heat." I was no shit told by someone in my unit that my p-mags would melt in the heat in Iraq or AFG.
As you can probably see in the Army and Marine Corps Times and from our dear Commander-in-Chief's speeches, peace is breaking out and Al Qaeda is defeated (just ask him).

Soon we will be back to GI-issued only gear, standard web gear configuration and packing lists, and no weapons painting.

TACOM will get a new shot on life as we re-focus from killing fokkers and go back to peacetime garrison mentality.
quote:
Originally posted by Sinister:
As you can probably see in the Army and Marine Corps Times and from our dear Commander-in-Chief's speeches, peace is breaking out and Al Qaeda is defeated (just ask him).

Soon we will be back to GI-issued only gear, standard web gear configuration and packing lists, and no weapons painting.

TACOM will get a new shot on life as we re-focus from killing fokkers and go back to peacetime garrison mentality.


Received a power point today on EXACTLY how kit will be setup from BRIGADE today. Bunch of door kickers up there who know how to optimally setup a shooters gear. I will now transition my mags to my far right side and jam my MBITR under my left armpit.
quote:
Originally posted by tdbarge:

10 bucks says the reason for this is somebody heard, from their brothers-cousins-best-friends-girlfriend's-uncle that a mag "just melted away in the desert heat." I was no shit told by someone in my unit that my p-mags would melt in the heat in Iraq or AFG.


$100 says the "issue" is that TACOM has not formaly tested the PMAG, hence it is "not safe". This is a preety common issue for more than just weapons. IF someone would pass TACOM/PEO Soldier Weapons the feed trough of funding they would gladly test the PMAG to see if it is safe to use. Then and only then will it be declaired as Safe and the GPM can be resinded or up held.

Since they were funded to develop and field the Tan follower mags, which you procure through TACOM the money trail is easy to follow. If you procure PMAGs you are using a "un-tested" mag which "MAY" endanger the life of a soldier. Oh, and TACOM doesn't get funding.

Another point to consider is that from the bean counter perspective they are bulk FREE issuing the new mags to units as they deploy. From the stawrdship perspective if you get 30,000+ free mags from TACOM and then go out and buy 30,000+ COTS mag to go with them at the BCT Level...........

The GPM also covers the Tango down mags, the CAA mags, Lancers, Tapco, Pro-Mag and all the rest of the mags to.
quote:
and no weapons painting.


We were painting ours in a scout platoon long before the GWOT. But line companies won't have that luxury I'm sure. I keep my fingers crossed that things won't go back to some of the more stupid things but, we shall see.

mercUSA

Joined: 12/26/02        

location:Retired 11B in southern AZ

Can we still get away with installing MagPul followers into the GI mag?
As for getting an officer torqued about no more PMAGS, this one is already pissed that we went out and designed and built a new follower/spring instead of just buying Magpul COTS. As for an aversion to plastic, weren't we looking at a plastic chassis for a new rifle at one point, we have plastic recievered pistols all over the battle space, I mean come on.

I concur that the ambient stupidity level is going up as the deployments wind down.

___________________________________________________________________

I'm either dead right, or horribly wrong. Either way the results should be entertaining.

 

"Shoot the MOTHERF$%^ER until he changes shape or catches fire"  the PAT ROGERS

Worthless bastards overstepping their non-existent legal authority again.

This adds insult to injury to Magpul, as the new GI Magazine uses an "Anti-tilt follower"...only it's not a true version as the damn thing tends to hang up on the last three rounds in the magazine. Combine that with a revamped feed lip design with a flaring out of them which is more conducive to feed lip spreading when dropped on the deck.

I reckon a lot of folks are going to retrofit the older GI magazines with the Magpul follower right about now.

It's things like this that solidify my decision to walk away.

We need a fucking 1,000,000 lumen CSM Mellinger signal...

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

quote:
Originally posted by cd228:
Can we still get away with installing MagPul followers into the GI mag?


It's not specificly stated in the message, but the system will tell you, "No you can not. The "MagPul" follower has not been tested (copied maybe) and is not approved for use as it may induce a unsafe condition. The Tan is the plan, green start to lean, should be used to guide you on your magazines." Who came up with that shit saying by the way?

Again in the end it's all about money and testing. They can't/won't/maybe shouldn't test every commercial mag that comes on the market. So you are left with the approved mag vs joe rolling out on patrol with his pouches stuffed with the coolest airsoft shit he could find on line.
quote:
Originally posted by tdbarge:
I was issued Pmags, with an NSN, less than 6 months ago.

10 bucks says the reason for this is somebody heard, from their brothers-cousins-best-friends-girlfriend's-uncle that a mag "just melted away in the desert heat." I was no shit told by someone in my unit that my p-mags would melt in the heat in Iraq or AFG.

Yeah, man. You didn't know that? It's true. PMags are actually made of wax.

Those of us who know must save those that don't from those that think they do.

"If you count 'three', mister, you'll never hear the man count 'ten'".-John Wayne as Sean Thornton in The Quiet Man

My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless.-Exodus 22:24

quote:
Who came up with that shit saying by the way?


Everyone knows Soldiers are stupid, knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons who require rhyming pnemonic devices created by Engineers and PHD's on Big Green Social Welfare to say out loud when looking at things to begin to understand.

Here's to hoping that with the several Legal Reviews concerning TACOM's overstepping of boundaries lodged already, they get their leash yanked and told to wind their necks in.

I'm a cynical bastard, though, and fully expect to see TACOM morph into the proponent authority for all this kinda shit...

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

Understand also that the enhanced magazine was an ongoing program that absorbed a shit load of money over a long time.

And magPul had the anti tilt follower long before.

They could have save the Tax[ayer a lot of money by buying the Magpul follower and spring and putting in the existing contract bodies.

Not invented here syndrome..
After 9/11, the more I observed conventional procurement and RDT&E at DOD, the angrier I became. I am thoroughly disgusted by the numerous fraudulent claims, continual waste of taxpayer funds, and abusive behavior by bureaucrats with a taste for power and control.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:
So you are left with the approved mag vs joe rolling out on patrol with his pouches stuffed with the coolest airsoft shit he could find on line.


This.

I dont want to get into mag vs. mag, or how much the procurment system sux, etc etc etc.

But, a CoC at some point is going to have to draw the line. And, as sorry as it may be, what TACOM "approves" may be the safest thing for the CoC to follow.

Back when I was a Pvt, out Platoon Sgt gave us a class on properlly rigging our rucks to jump. A comment he made applies.
"there may be 99 ways to rig this ruck to jump that are safe, but the 100th way that isnt, is what causes problems" So, to eliminate the guess work, the ASOP was written with only one approved way to do it. Same for JMPI. How many of you would wanna jump with a JM that was wingin it?

Now, where I work, we go thru similiar issues, no 1st line supervisor is willing to take responsibility for anything, much less a uniform or equipment modification. So, we are stuck with the lowest common denominator stuff.

Just something to think about, before you go off on your CoC, if they wont let you run PMAGS.

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Mick,

As I'm tracking, right or wrong TACOM/PICA is the proponent.

The following is a fictional account if how this stuff goes/goes wrong:

Shooter: We need some mother f}%^+=ing PMags

HQ: New mags that work better? OK

HQ to filtered System: We need to provide improved mags to our soldiers that are more reliable.

System: What are you talking about? Realy? Do I get funding? I'll get on it then.

Closes door, money + time, money + time

System: Here you go!!!

Shooter: What revision of the MagPul follower is this?

System: Who's MagPul? Ah shit, can you get legal on the line?

System: Here you go we fixed it. We will start out by giving you pallets of these for free.

HQ: Thanks!!

Shooters son: I guess these are ok, but those PMAGs of my dads sure worked better.
Roger - I should have wrote "de facto".

I see them becoming the sole authority, to such an extent that most CO's won't dare waive sections of an AR / TACOM's releases are basically considered law.

Also, I am totally going to make a video of that little exchange with GI Joe's now. That's some Pentagon Wars-caliber stuff.

Sadly, it's all true Frown

"I came here for one reason: to attack and keep coming.- Ultimate Warrior

 

"Americans don't deserve America." - Timmy

Understandable from the perspective that you preventing joe from rolling out the wire with BS magazines, HOWEVER, why not educate them as to which works and which doesn't and WHY. These are also the same kind of people that will not replace magazines or think its OK for joe to role out with a mag that is busted because its the "TACOM approved" magazine. I get increasingly tired of the "do this because XXXX reg says so" but when pressed, few can articulate why a regulation is written as such. Protocol is just another way for people to regulate you in to oblivion.

Kinda like the -10 for the CCO/ACOG showing a different POI vs. the POA for your 25m zero. It says to do it, but doesn't explain why (for obvious reasons) and now you have a myriad of myths that spawn from a simple misunderstanding.

TACOM---> ETADIK

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

quote:
Originally posted by Virgil:
HOWEVER, why not educate them as to which works and which doesn't and WHY.


From the systems perspective to do that means I need to do testing to prove what works and doesn't work. With out testing I don't have data and with out data I can't show you which works, which doesn't work or why, because I don't "know". Thus I can't educate you.( not me I, rather System I)

Now there are a million ways that data could be collected at little to no cost, but to "test" generaly means you are going to spend alot of money and would have to test everyone that wanted to plays mag. Add in man hours, ammo, ect and preety soon it just becomes a problem no one wants to deal with when they have an approved mag that has been funded and tested. Everything else is imperical(?) data which may or may not be true.

At the commander level it all gets dicey. Sure a Company Commander can say make X/Y modification or use such and such. But if one of the commanders in the line above him shoots it down it's shot down. As a commander you usualy don't just go out an do something without checking with the boss. Surely one of the reasons you don't see painted M-4's on Riva Ridge road marching every week. Unless one of the BCT Commanders says to paint their weapons, and gets the CG to sign off on it, you will carry black M-4's and M-16s. This even though it is authorized. The budget guys will also choke on purchasing enough rattle cans to paint +/- 19,000 M-16's and M-4s.

Mags in general were an old pet peeve of mine. In the summer of 2001 I some how got tagged as the guy to develope the UFR for 2/10 BCT. The number one item on my list was M-4 mags because we were lucky to have 4 magazines per man across the BCT. It's a command supply dicipline issue with maintain a inventory of magizine on hand in the company. Destroying mags that are no longer survicable. and not waiting until you are out before you decide to buy more.

As we started pushing out units in late Sept, early Oct 01 we were stripping units of their mags to out fit the first companies to deploy with 7 mags per man. The first of several thousand mags began to arrive in mid-late October and allowed us to outfit the remaining units in the task force and the various units that were sliced to us.
quote:
I still plan on taking and using my PMags.


I would... I would say the chances of your CoC even knowing about this, let alone caring, are slim to none...

_______________________________________________________________________

These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. -Matthew 15:8 "What can I say? I have a piece of paper in a frame on my wall that says I paid $20,000 to be able to use that word." - Haji

IMHO this appears to be a NIH issue.
The best way to get TACOM's attention on this matter is to contact our congressional delegations and tell them that a superior product is being denied our service members because of bureaucratic infighting and this could potentially cause a loss of life.
We are in an election year cycle..and most in congress are tired of the military stiffing the troops on equipment because of NIH syndrome.
Why rock the boat when you can sink the ship?
Art
Desert-

I gotcha and I understand the "Army Logic" side of things, just raging against the machine. Its just one of those things that irks the hell out of me. At times when you even HAVE data to show someone they can still decide to bury their head in the sand (take the POA/POI thing... you can show someone ballistic charts all day long and they will still think a bullet drops as it comes out of the barrel).

I'd say the easiest way to prove a CoC wrong is to throw a standard magazine in a SAW and compare with a PMAG. I've yet to find a CoC that cares that much, but we all know that trolls that do are out there (and have met a few of them in our careers, respectively).

I've encountered the same BS with magazines, and supply that doesn't understand that "good enough" from Brownell's doesn't constitute Mil-Spec magazines either or that they need to be regularly replaced.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

While I think that much of the time TACOM is full of crap, and that I have been very happy with the PMAGs that I have used, I’ll point out that while they may work great in your M4/M16A4/M249/M4’gery it’s an awfully joint environment these days. And who knows when your happy little unit that's running all p-mags (because you as the unit gun guru convinced the lower levels of your CoC to ignore this message) will be working with/for/alongside either a USMC unit/detachment/etc that has the IAR - or a coalition unit or an individual augmentee (from pick a number of agencies) who are issued 416’s. Just saying that there’s a lot said by some very locked on guys on this board about the reasons for buying gear that meets the TDP – and the P-mag has some bumps on the front that keep it from meeting those specs ; preventing them from fitting into the HK magwell. And no, this isn't just a hypothetical scenario...
The only issues I ever had in my M4 with PMags was they randomly dropped free sometimes. I adjusted the tension on the mag catch which helped in that it reduced the frequency with which it occured. The issue didn't get fixed until I took my M4 to a TACOM armorer on FOB Shank. I can't remember if he replaced the spring or the catch at all though. I remember him taking it apart though and after he went through it I stopped having the issue. After he stopped bitching about all the shit I had on my weapon that is. I remember other PMag users in my company having the same issue. When PEO Soldier came through they said they'd received reports from all over the country of it occuring---and of course started raving about how great the new mags are...right after they got done trash talking the Mk 48 and telling us how great the M14 was (they didn't like my customer sheet about the M14 lol).


Virgil-your supply was buying mags from Brownells? Are you going based off the floorplate being stamped Brownells? We got issued the "improved" mags and they all had Brownells stamped floorplate but I'm pretty sure they weren't purchased by our supply.

LGOP: a small group of "pissed-off American paratroopers" who are well trained, armed to the teeth, and lack serious supervision. They collectively remember the commander's intent as, "March to the sound of guns, and kill anyone who isn't dressed like you ..."

quote:
Originally posted by MickFury:
quote:
Who came up with that shit saying by the way?


Everyone knows Soldiers are stupid, knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons who require rhyming pnemonic devices created by Engineers and PHD's on Big Green Social Welfare to say out loud when looking at things to begin to understand.

Here's to hoping that with the several Legal Reviews concerning TACOM's overstepping of boundaries lodged already, they get their leash yanked and told to wind their necks in.

I'm a cynical bastard, though, and fully expect to see TACOM morph into the proponent authority for all this kinda shit...

LTC Lehner, Program Manager Individual Weapons (PEO Soldier), circa 2009.
PEO Soldier
quote:
Originally posted by Desert01:


$100 says the "issue" is that TACOM has not formaly tested the PMAG, hence it is "not safe".


I have not personally seen the testing just the excerpts the Marine Corps used from the Army testing on an point paper on PMAGs. From my memory, the mags failed testing because of extreme cold weather and chemical resistance.

I can verify it tomorrow when I get to the office, it is not on my home computer.
quote:
Originally posted by cd228:
Can we still get away with installing MagPul followers into the GI mag?

Just in case anyone is not aware - you cannot just swap in a Magpul to a mag that has the tan follower. The spring design was changed and they are not compatible.

Joined: 3/27/09          Location: Back in MA for now

quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
After 9/11, the more I observed conventional procurement and RDT&E at DOD, the angrier I became. I am thoroughly disgusted by the numerous fraudulent claims, continual waste of taxpayer funds, and abusive behavior by bureaucrats with a taste for power and control.


/salute

There were so many things we simply ignored out in the field when active. I suspect this will be another.

" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " -George Orwell Celer, Silens, Mortalitas "Swift, Silent, Deadly"

quote:
It was found that the PMAG failed to meet DoD specifications: rough handling at -60F causes damage/cracks in feed lip; immersion in MIL-L-46000 Lubricant Semi-Fluid Automatic Weapons - LAW and 804-01-284-3982; DEET Insect Repellant causes stress crazing/cracking; and it is not fully compatible with current standard issue MOLLE magazine pouches.
quote:
Originally posted by sofarider:
While I think that much of the time TACOM is full of crap, and that I have been very happy with the PMAGs that I have used, I’ll point out that while they may work great in your M4/M16A4/M249/M4’gery it’s an awfully joint environment these days. And who knows when your happy little unit that's running all p-mags (because you as the unit gun guru convinced the lower levels of your CoC to ignore this message) will be working with/for/alongside either a USMC unit/detachment/etc that has the IAR - or a coalition unit or an individual augmentee (from pick a number of agencies) who are issued 416’s. Just saying that there’s a lot said by some very locked on guys on this board about the reasons for buying gear that meets the TDP – and the P-mag has some bumps on the front that keep it from meeting those specs ; preventing them from fitting into the HK magwell. And no, this isn't just a hypothetical scenario...


Interesting observation, certainly the most compelling reason that I've heard. While they work great in our M4s, it is easy to forget that the pMAG isn't STANAG 4179 compliant.

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