Tell us about your subgun experiences:

I was just thinking of these the other day, and realized that the pistol caliber subgun is rapidly going the way of the revolver: it's something people see in old or period movies, but professionally armed youngsters have never used. I know all of one guy who still is issued an MP5 as his work long gun. 

So, think of this as an oral history project. Do tell about your experience shooting or much better yet actually working with subguns, so we all have it as a learning point for the future before it is forgotten. Gun experiences, armorer tricks, reloading and pouches, ammo selections, sights lights and lasers, effective range, whatever.  

Despite never shooting people for a living, I'll start with my brief experiences, of the ones I can recall at least:

  • MP5 – And HK94 (semi) and HK53... all are much the same. Lovely, amazing devices as we all know or can surmise. One of the more controllable things at full auto, also. Some people hate the selector (to the point they do not even use it!), but despite a literally deformed small thumb I have figured out a grip that works great for me so it's not awful. Before the AR got rails, and RISs, The Modular Gun with the pin-on forearms and buttstocks and the nice scope clamp. Have not shot an MP5/40 or /10, would love to know how the bolt hold open works. 
  • Steyr TMP – Ergonomically amazing, stunningly nice small package, and then you fire it. Horrendous trigger, vastly too high an ROF, sights are too handgun-sized to be useful so must wear an RDS which makes it bigger and snaggier. I could never get it to not twist in my hand, so hard to control in a way unlike other subguns. Weird. Have not shot the B&T ones so no idea if they are better. 
  • Steyr MPi – Kinda like the ultimate evolution of the UZI. Slick, small, comfortable, easy to use, good trigger, decent stock that gets out of the way, darned good sights (precise but also plenty of room around to see splash and keep SA, somehow a very short lock time so the least-bad open bolt gun I have ever fired. Maybe easier to control at auto than the MP5. Minute-of-car past 250 yards with 6-8 shot bursts. 
  • PPS43 – Comically low rate of fire and utterly gigantic. Never actually fired a Grease Gun, but handled them: that size, and absolutely pointless seeming when you can get a Kalashnikov instead just a few years later. So much bolt travel that despite the big gun (so no recoil) and low ROF, it wobbles about oddly so is a bit hard to control still. Only used the stick mag, which was a bear to load, drums are supposedly worse.  
  • Sten – Surprisingly compact, and slick running despite comical ergonomics on whichever all-steel monstrosity I got to shoot. Medium-acceptable on lock time, trigger, sights, etc. but if you want to hit over 50 yards and not waste ammo, you need some practice time to get used to 2-3 round bursts and really holding the gun on target through it. Mags are in fact almost impossible to load by hand over about halfway. MUST use the loading tool which despite looking like a discarded part for a steam locomotive, works brilliantly. 

I also have, FWIW:

  • Owned a Calico carbine. Semi auto so not an SMG but I wish I could have fired one at auto. One of the cleverest designs I've seen in many ways. Forget the helical mag, the bolt, carrier, safety, method of disassembly etc. are lovely. If only all HK roller locks were this easy to get apart, and get into to clean. 
  • Shot a 16" Colt 9mm carbine quite a lot. Where we did it, indoors at close range and on steel so frangible etc. it was clearly hellaciously safer than a 5.56 gun but... that's it. I'd rather have a short 5.56, and these days a short .300 BLK. Which: I indeed both own so there you go. 

 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

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I've never been issued one for a duty purpose, but I do have a lot of trigger time on the Uzi, less time on the MP5, and a little on the Sterling.  If I was to compare the MP5 and the Uzi, the MP5 is a light, high performance sports car, the Uzi is a Toyota FJ40 Landcruiser.  I think the MP5 is better for police work and the Uzi more military.  The MP5 is lighter, smoother, more elegant than the Uzi with a higher rate of fire.  The Uzi is heavier, very durable, more compact with the stock folded, lower rate of fire and a much easier to use fire selector.  With the Uzi on full auto, it is still very easy to manipulate the trigger and get off doubles or single shots.  I was never good enough to get a single on the MP5, though I guess you could call that a useless trick.  I admit that it sounds stupid to think that if you're in a fight, you're going to play with the trigger and try to get a single shot.  But that slower rate of fire does make it easy with the Uzi to just shoot a 3 rd burst.  Keeping a full mag in the center of the target is another circus trick exercise without a real world application, but it was easier with the Uzi.

In some ways, the Sterling combined the two.  Slightly heavier than the HK, much lighter than the Uzi.  Very smooth, good rate of fire, ergonomic controls, beautiful magazine.  The recoil is worth mentioning again.  It is very smooth with a good rate of fire and no muzzle rise.  Disassembly is very easy.  Downsides are the magazine sticking out of the side (much of the time), charging handle on the right when it would be so much better if it was on the left side of the bolt.  The stock is very comfortable for shooting, but a total pain in the ass to collapse or unfold.  Uzi and MP5 are much, much easier.  But it's very compact when folded and I guess that the thinking man would say that if you have to unfold the stock quickly, you're already behind the 8-ball and you fucked up.  Keep the stock extended except when folding it for jumping out of airplanes, storage in tanks, etc.  The sling attachment system is atrocious and the worst of the bunch.  There is a fixed loop on the back of the cap on the rear of the receiver.  Unless your sling attaches to a loop of 550 cord, which is looped into the sling swivel, it doesn't work.  A sling looped through the sling loop ends up in your face and obscuring your vision when the gun is in your shoulder.  There is no front swivel.  You use a snap hook through a couple of the circular holes in the receiver, or again, a loop of 550 cord. 

Both the Uzi and Sterling (full auto versions) have bayonet lugs.  At least HK and the Germans thought that was ridiculous and didn't bother.  I liked all three enough that I have semi-auto versions.  Can't afford the really fun ones.  Not until I win the lottery anyway.

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Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

As I own a HK MP5K and my brother has his MP5F, I’m kind of partial but I have shot a few others:

-MP 40:  surprisingly large and heavy but come on...look at it.  Way cool, very manageable.

-1928 Colt Navy Thompson:  How the fuck could we afford to make these things?  They are jewels.  The fit and finish is insanely good.  I get how the M1 had to take its place for cost and ease of production.  Very accurate but really heavy.  I did feel invincible shooting it though.

-Beretta M12:  I would set my HK on fire for this.  Amazing.

-Beretta M38A:  I would set my Beretta M12 on Fire for this.  The best sub gun I have ever used.  Accuracy and build quality are superb.  Might be the greatest gun overall I have ever used.  Very popular pick up gun during WW2 by both sides.  Biggest issue was a lack of enough magazines. Now I want one.  Fucking LF did it again.  Off to research.  Bastids.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

I ran an issued MP5/Gemtech suppressor for several years of SWAT duty use until we transitioned to M4's.  I still kept it with me for the novelty of having it, but unfortunately was finally made to turn it in .  It was manufactured in 1996 and had God knows how many rounds through it, but it still sang like a sewing machine.   We used to have competitions as to who could do a sustained 28 round mag dump and make the tightest single hole...good times!  Like SHOOBE01, I have short thumbs so it was always a problem moving the selector switch.  Once we finally got with the times of not making entry on full auto (), we purchased extended selectors for all our guns to aid in not having to switch our hand positioning on the grip.

-------- "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America." -George W. Bush

Never carried one on duty,  closest i came was fondling a suppressed .45 UMP one of our SWAT guys was issued formerly.

MP5. Maybe 500 rounds scattered across an A2, A3, SD3, A5 and a MP5K over the years. Smooth shooting, fun to use, stupidly accurate, typical fucked up German ergos. 

Uzi. 150ish, suppressed and not. Easy to handle, nice and compact. For a WW2 style commando raid, it's the tits. One of my favorites. 

M1A1 Thompson. 40 rounds at the end of my academy. Massive freedom boner. Easier to control than some make it out. If we counted Call of Duty I'd have about 93 million rounds through one...

I'd carry it on duty, just to say i did...

 

Ingram: i shot a stock and modified Cobray, both in the bitchin' 80s drug gun stock setup, and with a low RPM upper, dot scope, longer barrel with VFG and M4 stock. Maybe 300 rounds.

Stock setup, fun range toy.  Second option it was as easy to shoot as an Uzi.

 

Always heard good things of the M12 and M38 from Carabinieri i dealt with, just never got to shoot one.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

OMG, the Ingram. Never fired one, but fondled enough to know I wouldn't want to. A couple I could have fired would not work! My favorite: so parkerized it was now internally out of spec. We could not cock it. As in, half a dozen of us could not even barricade cock it. 

I gather there are good ones, but I don't know how to tell the good from bad so if one came up with no time to research: no. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

This was a later production Cobray, i.e made right... owner reported no real issues. 

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Very limited experience -

Semi-auto MP5 issued at the patrol level with a previous agency; all experience was during quals at the range. That being said, no issues or malfunctions that I recall. Ours were the fixed stock variant which for me was a problem as I'm vertically challenged. Instructors also strongly encouraged the squared off shooting stance where the stock is almost on your sternum. Safety manipulation was not an issue (as I'd previously heard) as I'd just sweep off-safe with the thumb as I was putting sights on target, then I'd use the back of my index finger to put it back on safe. The sights were not fast to acquire and we had no means of attached red dots (nor were they approved). The guns were also issued with some weird two/three point sling that attached via a metal clamp. 

My old agency has two MP5a2 and two MP5a3 SMGs.  The SWAT team still uses them, it will take an executive order to remove the MP5s from service due to the love the team has for them.   Easy to use, ultra reliable, I never thought the ergos were bad, I could hit full soda cans at 80 yards on semi back in the day.  These have safe,semi,two round, full auto trigger groups.   I got to shoot the MP5 in .40S&W at a school, it seemed to not be as easy to use as the 9mm.  

The agency also has a MAC-10 in .45acp, folding stock, Cobray suppressor.  It was donated to the department.   A lot of fun on steel targets, I could hit Pepper Poppers at 50 yards on semi without issue but that was about it.   Reliable with ball only.  Not on my top 100 most user friendly guns.

I shot a Colt SMG thru an NRA SMG instructor school.  They worked with ball, were reasonably accurate and controllable in F/A fire.  Loaded magazines would occasionally burp up a few rounds if you jarred them.

Once upon a time I got to shoot around a hundred rounds thru an FN P90.  Odd ergos, very easy to control in F/A, fascinating magazine.  The ballistics seemed to be similar to a .22 Magnum.  

If given my choice I’d skip the SMG entirely and use a .300Blk SBR   

 

Since I came onto the job in the heyday of subguns I have gotten experience with a lot of them in courses, demos and just hanging with guys from other teams, plus I actually carried a subgun for a long time.

Carried a MP5A3 for over ten years with SWAT. Hundreds of callouts and carried on patrol daily. Loved the thing-still do, it is still in the armory, has over 75k through it with only PM. Literally a Rolls Royce compared to all other sub guns...keep it clean, you have about 200 rounds maybe 300 before the breach face will need to be cleaned to eliminate powder build up that sometimes will keep the bolt from going into battery completely. Its funny sometimes it will, sometimes it won't and that is in the same magazine of fire, clean it and you are 100 percent.  Ergonomics for the selector sucks no matter what version otherwise it is nearly a perfect subgun for LE work.

Have experience with the SD model which is nearly movie quiet if fed right, but stay away from feeding it the sub-sonic rounds. The weapon was intended for supersonic, full power loads. Know a guy who dropped a burst into a bad guys head at about five feet and none penetrated. This was using old, old school 147gr when that first came out but still....

MP510 and MP540.  These two I wanted to love but, yeah, no....a little heavier than the 9, close to the same feel but something, well something is just off on them. I was on the line  with a bunch of MP5-4Os from St. Louis County when I was at a Phil Singleton MP5 instructor course and noted a couple lunch their bolts and some mag issues all in the five day course.  Fired the 10 a couple of times and was like-wise underwhelmed.

UMP 45. I taught a class that had 14-15 from one team in them and have had them in classes since. Compared to the MP5 it sucks. Overall however, other than being 'tall' (top to bottom) it is a good piece of kit as long as your arms are sized so that the length of pull isn't atrocious for you. Unfortunately for me, it was much too long.  The weapon is accurate, controllable and durable for what it is.

UZI (9mm)..Well, its a Ford Truck compared to the Rolls Royce of the MP5. But hey, I like trucks, a lot. Both the full size and Mini-Uzi have a great feel to them in my hand. I have fired both the open and closed bolt versions. By far I thought the closed bolt version was smoother but both worked very well.

The mini-Uzi was my favorite but I owned a semi-auto full sized for a while, really liked it. One issue, if you call it really an issue, is the mass of the bolt is pretty significant and you feel it when the weapon recoils...its an idiosyncrasy you have to learn but every weapon has something.

Colt 9mm SMG....split the difference in smoothness between the Uzi and the MP5 and you have the Colt. Overall, not bad at all, not MP5 but more than usable to be sure. Watch the mags though, although they hold 32 only load 28, seems like any more and you occassionally get a malfunction deep in the mag. Not sure why since it was originally a modified Uzi pattern but it is what it is.

Calico...wasn't around long but wow...the versions I fired, both semi and full, were awesome. Almost zero recoil and a helical 50 round magazine. Not sure how durable it would have been but for what I little I had time to observe it had possibilities if fully developed.

Thompson 1928...huge on cool points but heavy, large and well, super cool like a 63 Caddy is, worked great at the time but now is slow, heavy and doesn't corner well...still, it was a bucket list thing.

Ingram 9mm. Fired both the full and semi-versions. Very similar to the Uzi but for me not as well balanced or controllable.

Stery TMP, limited experience with the full auto version but it was controllable and very nice when I fired it,  I didn't find the trigger as bad as others have stated but like I said, only limited experience, one full mag, with it.

Sterling...again, very limited experience, less than a full magazine but what I came away with was a positive feeling, except for the sideways out magazine...but I assume you get used to that.

Glock 18, if you call this a subgun....with a stock it still sucks for the real world...cool to shoot on the range once or twice but I ran several hundred rounds through it trying to find a reason for it, yeah, didn't find it but I did keep trying....

FN P90...full auto and the PS90 semi...again, not sure some of you would classify as a subgun but if the caliber was more effective I would love to run one, I really really liked it. On full auto there is almost zero recoil and it was stupid simple to get hits ( on a square range that is) still the caliber apparently isn't what it could be...make a 9mm version or even a 30 carbine version and yeah...

 

To sum up, I carried the MP5 for a long time and love it. Would I take it to war? No. Would I take it for a domestic LE warrant service or hostage job, yep, sure would....and would not think twice about it. Yes my current issue is a better GP rifle for everything but, the MP5 is still a valid weapon for LE in my opinion, there are just better options available for less money and which do the work better.

 

I was issued (or rather I issued myself) 3 select fire Uzis made under licence in Belgium, along with a H&K G3, and a few other guns.

I put something north of 25 000 rounds through the Uzis.

They were built like tanks, heavy and very reliable. They were easy to field strip, and I had a fairly large supply of 25 round magazines. I didn't really like the selector, and the folding stock had some rough edges. As already mentioned, the big, heavy bolt slamming back and forward takes a bit of getting used to.

I have a bit of hands on time with a few other SMGs, but I didn't spend a couple of years living with them like I did with the Uzis. Hell, I slept with a loaded Uzi hanging from my cot, or inside my sleeping bag, depending on where I was.

I didn't really appreciate the Uzis as much as I should have, as all the cool kids all had MP5s in the 80's, but I was much younger then. It's interesting to read that the MP5 has the same issue as the G3 when it comes to getting dirty. The G3 would get a very sticky chamber after 4 to 5 mag dumps, to the point where it became a single shot rifle.

I got pretty good with them. I could shoot singles, doubles and three round bursts, as well as dump whole mags into a letter sized piece of paper or single shots into a soda can at a reasonable distance.

I miss the days when someone else was paying for my ammunition. I got to expend several times my pay in ammo every week shooting pretty much anything I wanted.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

I was always curious about the 9mm Calico.  I put a brick plus through the .22LR "Spaceballs Special" in the 90s, never shot the 9mm. You're the only user ive encountered outside gun rags.

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

Was issued a Colt SMG 9mm

Fun controllable little gun even when shooting FA.  But, I could never be 100% sure whether or not I felt the bolt cycle or lock back on empty.

Do. Not. Drop. A. Full. Magazine. Ever.

We still have 2 of them gathering dust in the armory. 

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What is left when honor is lost?

MrMurphy posted:

I was always curious about the 9mm Calico.  I put a brick plus through the .22LR "Spaceballs Special" in the 90s, never shot the 9mm. You're the only user ive encountered outside gun rags.

owned a Calico. The 9mm I shot at the rifle match I mention periodically was a 16" Ban-era Calico with non-telescoping stock. Summarized in the OP, I can elaborate all you want if any questions.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

I'm not nearly as experienced as Scott Oldham, but I've done a lot of training with the MP5.  I was one of the Master Instructors certified by HK ITD before they went by the wayside.

I've always prefered the plain-Jane fixed stock versus the collapsible.  I've worked with SEF versions, but am most comfortable with the Navy 3 postion trigger group

I was always able to run the trigger pretty well, I think largely because of drills I worked up to practice auto fire at the same time limiting rounds. 

My favorite was one I called scales.  I'd load two mags with 6 live, dummy, 5 live, dummy, 4 live, dummy, 3 live, dummy, 2 live, dummy, 1 live.  For a total of 21 live 5 dummies per mag.  And a third mag, which was the second one fired, reversed loaded, 1 live, dummy, 2 live, dummy, and so on.   Total of  63 live rounds.  The targets were simple, I used the tops of our dinky styrofoam coffee cups for 1 - 3 round bursts, the bottom of the cup for 4 through 6 round bursts.  The left side went small, small, small, large, large, large, the middle was reversed and the right side was the same as the left side.  Fire one, hopefully click on dummy, immediate action (seat and tug, working parts rear, working parts forward) fire two,  click on dummy, immediate action........

Fun, slowed you down burn ammo, built the ability to get off the trigger. reinforced stance, especially when I did it off-line then stepping in to fire.   Beyond 3 rounds not much use to the drill, but, as I said, fun.

I actually went through my initial operators training with a borrowed MP5/40 and I loved it, largely because of the huge smear in the middle of the metal targets and the headshots at 50.

I've shot Uzi's, really just enough to say I have.  Likewise with the Thompson, Reising, and Sten.

We had a Ruger MP9 for extended demo, so I probably had about a thousand rounds through it.  I thought it was nicer to shoot than the UZI.

I always tried to get at least a day with different subguns that were represented in agency classes. 

As a result I've spent time with the UMP 9 and the 45, as well as the Colt SMG. 

The very first exposure I had to the  Colt was during a class I took.  I had noticed the officer using it wasn't grouping for shit on burst drills.  The instructor gave us the opportunity to swap for a drill and I traded the guy with the Colt.  He didn't want to give my MP5 back and I couldn't wait to give his Colt back.  I was used to the MP5 sight just laying in there during burst fire and that freaking Colt front sight was jumping around like an engraving pencil.  I shot better than him, but dayum...

MP5's will always be the Queen of subguns to me.

MP5 is all cool and fun until you run into lenght of pull issues. The telescopic stock should have at least 3 positions and not just collpased and full retard long. What ended up happening was either guys runing it with stock collapsed (and to be honest, with SD you don't really need stock for accurate fire...) or ghetto modifications like

..or just go with

other than that the MP5SD is really easy to shoot and seeing the rounds fly downrange is cool (especially inside buildings with white light on). Terminal effectivity is another thing, as I saw some projectiles stuck in old tyres and generally not penetrating really well..

 

Scorpion EVO3- nice little SMG, lightweight and good controls. But due to its low weight and dynamic receiver it tends to kick more than I like. And the first series I handled weren't really solid due to play in plastic components.

 

Vz. 61 Scorpion- Well, not too powerful cartridge and retarded charging handle, but otherwise fun gun to shoot. Controllable even on full auto and the stock could be used just to rest againt cheek and still be accurate. Ergonimics flat out sucks due to fire selector and virtually no place for support hand. Some modern accesory might mitigate that...

 

 

 "Anatomy and Physiology is EVERYTHING. It is the difference between being a trained monkey and a medic"

-RESQDOC-

I was issued an MP5N and it was a great SMG; pleasure to shoot and small enough you could keep it in the front seat on a surveillance with the stock closed. It deployed well from there on the one or two occasions surveillance turned into doing something. When I switched to another agency, our issued MP5 was simply a pistol caliber carbine and not select fire. Still, the platform was fun to shoot, accurate and agile. We then transitioned to M4s.

Our basic students get a "Title III" day in training and as a firearms instructor I spent a lot of time running firing points with various NFA guns. I've got a fair amount of range time with several SMGs.

Thompson M1928: Good shooter, a 50-round drum mag is heavy. I would not want to hump a bunch 50-rd mags as part of my basic load. The vertical foregrip is cool.

Thompson M1A1: A bit lighter than the 1928. Has a tendency under long burst to run up and to the right. 3-4 rounds bursts are plenty controllable. After a couple of 30 rd mags the foregrip is HOT. A self correcting mistake on newbies that don't listen...In my first cop job the PD had 2 M1A1s in the arms room. I convinced the LT to let me carry one on a drug warrant. (I had just come off active duty). 30 rd mag in the gun and a 30 rder jammed in my Sam Browne belt. It was the '80s.

M3: When I was in the Army in the mid-'80s the mechanics in the BN sppt platoon carried these and I only shot it a couple times. But as a Title III toy, it's pretty fun. Not as accurate as the Thompson, but a bullet hose for sure. Most fun configuration to shoot was an integrated suppressed version we had in the vault a la Attack Force Z.

Ingram M10 & M11: The M10 in .45 both suppressed and "regular" is a hoot to fire. The wire stock helps but if I were to really use one, the but plate would need to be knurled or something because it would slide around in my shoulder pocket. The M11 in .380 is small and just throws rounds. Fun to shoot.  

Uzi: Bigger than the M10, heavier. Fun to shoot. 

Sten: Simple. Functional. Cheap. Most of the Stens I've shot were "kit" guns. One or two were UK relics and they were better made/fitted.

Port Said: An Egyptian copy of the Swedish K. It was not very well built, but fun to shoot. I would love to have shot an original.

Kriss: I fired a prototype of the Kriss Super V for a short T&E session. I liked it but I wasn't sure of the feasibility of it over say an M4 as an LE long gun. As just a f/a, in general it was pretty fun to shoot.

if you want a man to keep his head when the crisis comes you must give him some training before it comes. - Seneca

DLehr posted:

I'm not nearly as experienced as Scott Oldham, but I've done a lot of training with the MP5.  I was one of the Master Instructors certified by HK ITD before they went by the wayside.

 

 

I took the HK MP5 operators course in the 96 or 97 time frame IIRC, and the instructor was Gene Zink. Gene had been a platoon sergeant for a short period of time in my unit in the GANG - very humble, very nice, very knowledgeable guy.

At that time, my agency didn't have rifles issued to patrol officers, only to SWAT.  Over dinner one night, Gene offerered to pull some strings and get HK to loan us 10 or 15 mp5s for testing purposes. Obviously not as good as an AR, but believe me, better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. My department said "no" ( for what reason I have no idea) ...

At that time, I had no sub gun experience, but by the end of the week, I was somewhat competent with the platform. Keeping in mind it's obvious limitations, I wouldn't have a problem with carrying one today for work purposes...

When life gives you lemons, say f*** the lemons and bail...

kaja posted:

MP5 is all cool and fun until you run into lenght of pull issues. The telescopic stock should have at least 3 positions and not just collpased and full retard long. What ended up happening was either guys runing it with stock collapsed (and to be honest, with SD you don't really need stock for accurate fire...) or ghetto modifications like

..or just go with

 

 

 

You can make your own length of pull mods to the collapsible stock with about 15-20 minutes of work with a dremel. The rail itself is essentially in an inverted L configuration on each  side, carefully cut gaps into the top part of the inverted L so that the locking portion of the stock can slide into that gap and you are good to go. All of our MPs were modified like this over 15 years ago with no side issues. It also helps with the collapsible stock 'wobble' that you get as the weapon gets older. Its an easy mod that really helps with length of pull. PM if you need further, I'll try to pull one of ours out of the armory in the next few days and see if I can figure out how to post pictures. Again, as long as you go slow it is a super easy process, just look at the very front of the stock where the lock engages from the factory and mimic that wherever you like further back.

I own a "Sterling" clone.   It was made by PAWS in the mid-80s. It is a spittin' image of a Sterling only it takes Sten mags.   Open bolt, really rudimentary sights (and that's being kind).  I must admit it really is fun to shoot. 

A best man at one of my weddings was at one time the largest Class 3 dealer in Idaho. I used to pal around with him so I was lucky enough to shoot numerous SMGs. I could say I probably have at least a thousand rounds each through most of the common ones already mentioned here.  One not mentioned here and one I loved to shoot more than most others- was a UD M42, made in WW2 by United Defense.  It was the most comfortable, extremely easy to hit targets with, but as I recall, mag exchanges were not particularly fast and it was a bit heavy .  I think all it had was 25 round mags.  

Classiest--HK MP5

Most utilitarian--Uzi

Drag by a chain behind a pickup and still run- Sten

True bullet hose--Mac M11 .380 (closest thing to an M134s cyclic rate)

Heaviest-- Thompson, but you never saw a skinny little Chicago gangster, did you?

Waste of time and effort-- American 180 

Thumper- M3 Grease gun

sub posted:

Is my understanding correct that subguns when suppressed are significantly quieter than suppressed M4s? Thanks

Yes, SIGNIFICANTLY quieter...like only hear the action moving and the thump of the round hitting quiet.

-------- "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us. And when we come together and work together, there is no limit to the greatness of America." -George W. Bush

Most of my time on subguns was with Mp-5s. We had a mix of fixed and collapsible stock guns. When I got on the tac team, this was THE gun, and we had to qualify with it I think every 6 months. We shot a lot of full auto with them. I remember not caring for the selector, but loved how easy it was to hold nice tight little groups/patterns with them full auto.  I preferred the fixed stock for comfort, but my inner John McClain liked the way the collapsible stock looked. Having cut my teeth on the M16 FOW, I just couldn't understand why the bolt wouldn't lock open when it was empty. The ones we has were frankly just abused with how much we shot them and how little maintenance they got.  Before we swapped to the M4 commando's, it seems like we had issues with parts breakage. At the time I was not an armorer or instructor, so I did't really pay that much attention to that stuff. I basically did what I was told. I made a few entries on search warrants with them.  They were light, compact, and I had total confidence in being able to hit shit inside a room with it.

I have shot the SD version several times, as well as the Mp-10. I didn't care for the weight and balance of the SD. The MP-10 wasn't as smooth or reliable. It kicked more (you wouldn't think 1mm would make a difference, but it does) especially in full auto.  

Out county has a pair of M11s (hunks of shit) and a pair of Thompson 1921's.  We would occasionally break them out during various schools (select fire, rifle instructor, etc), and get them hot. The M11 is garbage. The 1921's are just so fucking cool, you forget that they weigh about 94 lbs and that you'd never, ever want to carry one for more than 5 minutes.  

I'm still of the opinion that for certain missions, like vehicle/bus assaults, the pistol caliber subgun is viable with the right ammo.  Frankly, we had a few left, but we went whole-hog into the 11.5" commando thing. 

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

I love the MP-5SD.  I've used the cut-down Secret Service Uzi, which I thought was heavy and clunky.  The Colt DEA SMG, like many have pointed out, is a disaster if you drop a loaded magazine.

MAC-10s are a waste of ammo and time.  The CZ 23 is very cool.

The Swedish M45 (the "K" and the suppressed "K") are fantastic.  The suppressed OSS M3 Grease Gun is more fun than a human being should be allowed to have.

Danish Madsen is usable.

The Thompson is a beautiful gun but heavy.

The PPsh41 "Burp Gun" is a blast, especially with the drums.

The suppressed Sten Mark 6 pre-dated the MP-5SD by about twenty years and still soldiers on in a few countries.

HK MP7 and the FN P90.  Meh.

Never shot the MP40 but I'm looking forward to it.

caldws posted:
DLehr posted:

I'm not nearly as experienced as Scott Oldham, but I've done a lot of training with the MP5.  I was one of the Master Instructors certified by HK ITD before they went by the wayside.

 

 

I took the HK MP5 operators course in the 96 or 97 time frame IIRC, and the instructor was Gene Zink. Gene had been a platoon sergeant for a short period of time in my unit in the GANG - very humble, very nice, very knowledgeable guy.

Yes, he was one of the instructors I had for various classes, very approachable.   My favorite instructor was Chris Shepherd.  I also enjoyed Dan Cussiter who was an adjunct out of LASD, I believe.

I had a semi-melt down during my operators class.  I shoot a possible on the qual and some instructor, I don't remember his name, never saw him again at another course, scored me with  misses because he couldn't count the edges of the rounds.  I was conversing about this with the dude explaining that, 'well, you know there is a fucking hole in the middle, with no rounds outside the group, and look I nailed your head box dead center, they are there.'  About this time a classmate who was a psychologist with the Indy PD (IIRC) says, what does it matter you passed.  I told him if it didn't matter they wouldn't write the percentages down.  That haunted me because years later another guy in the class became a co-worker.  He would remind me of that on a regular basis when we were on the range by asking - 'are you sure those are there Dan?'

I also attended an ITD SWAT School (don't remember if it was one or two) with the guy that was the ghost writer/co-writer for Richard Marchinko's books.  He was kind of lost in the woods most of the time, outside his span of knowledge, but trying to learn.

I’ve shot a few, with the MP5 being my favorite by a large margin. The only subgun I was ever issued was a MP7 with B&T suppressor for PSD work. A few observations:

Pistol caliber guns still have pistol ballistics (more or less), but are very good suppressor hosts. 

Subguns today are a solution seeking a problem. The rise of ultra-short AR’s and 300Blk have rendered them obsolete, IMO.  The new “submachinegun” is a ~8” 300Blk .

The MP7 was meant to be a low profile option in my use, but it was too large to conceal practically. If you need concealability, use a pistol. If you need longer range and increased lethality and capacity, bring a rifle. This may not apply if your organization exists to clear boats and weirdo shit like that. For my use, I generally left the MP7 behind and took either a pistol, or both a pistol and a 5.56 gun, depending on the requirement to be low-vis, or not, and ability to stow a weapon, or not  

They are fun to shoot, and look cool. I can’t stress enough how important it is to always look cool.  So use a Mk18, and some Oakleys. 

Most of my sub gun experience is on the Sterling seeing as how it was in our bns up to1988.  I shot it in training at various times in my first 5 years in the army.  I also shot it (including auto) as a teen in the army cadets.  I didn't have much to compare it to given lack of experience.  I felt it seemed to rock a bit due to the bolt going back and forth.  I wasn't bothered by the side mag, however, the cocking handle bugged me as all our weapons handling on the FN C1 (FAL) stressed how good it was that it was completely left hand operated and the right hand never leaves the pistol grip.  That said, with the Sterling, we'd cant it left and still use the left hand.  On auto it seemed to climb up and to the right.  Always thought the ability to fix bayonets was cool.  I pinched the flesh on my hand due to folding the stock...more than once....

Being an officer, however, we did not carry them (unlike LCol H. Jones VC attacking the  argy trench) - we all carried rifles so as to remain less conspicuous.  In my pls they were carried by the signaller and weapons det members.  In Germany in 87 (last year of its use), the soldier carrying the C6 (FN MAG 58/M 240 which we had finally obtained a year earlier) would sling his SMG over his left shoulder with the stubby 10rd mag in place and stock folded a la Star Wars.  The whole thing was then secured on his web belt on the right  in a sort of holster secured with a velcro strap made by a rigger.  Always struck me as very practical.  In 88 we were issued the new C7 (M 16 A2) and the SMG was taken away.  The rifle replacement saw my pl get enough for all except C9 gunners and one person who got a pistol (me.  obviously some wanker in NDHQ decided to ignore the last 4 decades of history and felt the Pl Comd should carry a pistol).  As a result, my MG man now had a rifle flopping on his back instead of the nice, secure SMG.  I swapped with him and that was then adopted throughout the bn.

In the early 2000s we had a PD session at the supply depot in Edmonton.  The guy giving the tour took us into the weapons vault (not much to see but shelves that rose over 20 ft into the air crammed with cardboard boxes) and pointed to a wall of shelves.  "Here we have war-stocked SMGs.  In this spot alone...approximately 15,000..."...sigh...

In the late 70s when my Dad was the local Bn Comd we lived in a mil house near a 25 yd rge.  One Sat when I was o/a 15 yrs old, a friend and I were watching TV and being lazy.  Dad pulls up from work and says let's popover to the rge.  In the car were 2 X Sterlings and a crate of 9mm.  WE spent a few hours blazing away with nary a care in the world.

I've had friends with semi auto only Uzis, mini Uzis, CZ Scorpion and MP5s.  I shot them all and enjoyed them.  Like others here, the MP 5 seemed best.

First gun I ever shot (at age 6) was a full auto Thompson.  I wasn't savvy enough at that age to note whether it was M 1928 or M 1 - assume 1928.  The glory days of the early 70s - full autos legal, able to shoot in the woods...).  I'd start at the base of a tree and, by the end of the burst, had managed to take out a bunch of branches 30 ft up...I was hooked!

 

Joined sometime in 2008.                  Live in Canada.        

I carried an MP5A3-N w/ a collapsible stock  for 14 +/- years on SWAT and Narcs.  We had Fred Yates of HK Int. do our first instructor course and I took another with Phil Singleton.  I loved this thing.  It is a great heater for vehicle ops and I used it as such a lot.  It is very easy to manipulate around center consoles, gear shifts and steering wheels. 

I got it in 1999 with the OEM green, 3 point sling and the blinding 65 lumen halogen Surefire fore end with irons. Once exposed to Viking slings, it replaced the factory. 

I later discovered a stash of OEM fore ends and to avoid a second mortgage on my house for a railed fore end (which were unicorns into the mid 2000's as far as I knew) , I sheet metal screwed a couple pic rail sections (GG&G I believe) for a stubby vertical and a light mount.  For its last couple years, I sourced a low mount claw and put an old Aimpoint Comp M2 on it.  With a dual mag clamp, it was hella heavy for what it was. 

I carried 3 mags: 2 on the gun and the third in a single pistol mag pouch for a double stacked .45.  I started this prior to PALS/Molle being a thing and before it was in our inventory.    When the guns were bought in 1992 until around 2004, we were highly invested in velcro snap grip armor.  Pouches for this stuff were lackluster at best, not commercially available, and the subgun specific mag pouches bought in the early 90's were long since used up and gone.  I used the pistol mag pouch until about 5 years ago when I retired from the team.  The two other guys that still had MP5's used personally purchased backhawk or eagle thigh rigs and a couple fore end lights had LED upgrades done.   

In 1999, there was approximately 3 gear makers, I knew of, that made thigh mounted subgun mag holders, so I called and spoke to Mike Noell, (who used to answer his own phone) and ordered me up one.  For full disclosure; I left Eagle a VM first and to this day, they have never returned my call.   I got out of the sub load game rather quickly as loading from the belt was way faster.  

Our qualifier was HK's own standards drill shot on F/A which required substantial trigger manipulation.  Once you got it, it was fairly easy with the big spongy trigger.  We got our first short rifles a year or two after I came on the team and tried these shenanigans with a F/A trigger on 11.5" Bushys to an approximate .003% success rate.  We used the HK model of safeties off until meeting MSgt. Howe and being shown some light.

Each of these subguns had Simunition kits that used a bolt replacement and a barrel sleeve with a blue colored barrel clampy thing.  They ran like champs and for CQB you could simulatedly (might not be a word) fuck someone up with it.     

That gun had at least 3 rebuilds and untold tens of thousands of rounds through it.  Its in a locker now with six or seven others rusting.     

Short list of some things I didn't like about it:  

Regardless of sling, when slung it had a tendency to hang muzzle horizontal and laser others if not controlled.  I consciously kept a support hand on almost all the time to avoid this.

I had a wicked hard time seating a loaded mag on a closed bolt.  If you slapped it, as was the style back in the day, with no gloves, you may need stitches in your palm.

As has been said; short safety selector meant my smaller raccoon paw had to right side my thumb on the selector. 

 

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I have a "Dogs of War" attraction to the Uzi.  More especially a suppressed one.  I've only shot one of these (with Hebrew markings no less) and I get a quarter push thinking about it.   I have a friend with a non-suppressed and I have some time on it.  My only thoughts are it's not an HK.  

Other than that, I've shot many of the aforementioned but not enough to speak to them.

 

Dusty black coat and a red right hand.

Im not anyone important but I ran a suppressed MP5 through half of a carbine class.


The Selector is a royal pain.

Compared even to a AR recoil is very negligible.

Trigger is ok and the gun handles very well.

With the light recoil and muzzle report, and trigger, I may have a different point of reference being a young, but with subsonic ammo it feels almost like shooting a high quality airsoft gun that happens to have 9mm rounds go downrange.  Doing up-drills due to how quiet it was and the comparatively low energy of the round I could not hear if I was making hits at 50 yards on steel with ARs going off around me.

I think its a nice enough gun to plink with, but for the cost of the platform unless someone is super recoil sensitive I don't really see much use for it.  

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

My department bought 8 UMP45s about 15 years ago or so for our tac team.  Each member is issued an SMG, rail kit and 4 or 5 mags.  I turned down mine for a while but ultimately felt it a  good idea to have a machine gun in the locker because full auto is fun.  I use my M4 for 99% of my shoulder weapon purposes but have rolled the MG for some vehicle take downs where the folding stock has been beneficial.  

My thoughts on the gun aren't especially positive.  The heavy ass bolt banging back and forth in plastic receivers is obnoxious when used to a 5.56 carbine.  Iron sights on it are ok but crude.  Once a RDS is mounted the UMP becomes much easier to use.  Mags are quite long for what they are and when in the gun it is a tall drink of water.  On a vest, the length makes them a bitch for reloads.  I recall there being an Eagle or Blackhawk pouch that mounts slightly below the belt line but not a full blown subload which seems like it would be ideal.  Once the gun has a VFG, RDS, and decent sling work can be done with it but its still not ideal.  I currently run Vortex's top of the line mini-RDS (Razor I believe), a Streamlight RM2 and a BCM VFG on my UMP45 with a single point sling. 

I have run a couple hundred rounds through some old ass MP5s.  Those guns felt like BMW's compared to the UMP being an old F150 even though they had been rode hard.  

Previous agency has 2 absolutely beautiful 1921/28 Overstamp Thompsons which are only special occasion fun guns if you're with someone who has the armory key.  I've put a couple hundred rounds through them also, all in stick magazines. Those guns have been in the armory for something like 80 years.  Heavy as hell but beautiful and reliable.  I don't think I've ever seen one malfunction.  A friend's dad has 2 1928s and an M1 that have made it to the range with us before.  The m1 is cool for a historical perspective but pales in comparison to the 1928.  

Blessed be the Lord, my rock

who trains my arms for battle,

who prepares my hands for war.

 

Psalm 144.1

Low_Speed_Notper8or posted:

Im not anyone important but I ran a suppressed MP5 through half of a carbine class.


The Selector is a royal pain.

Compared even to a AR recoil is very negligible.

Trigger is ok and the gun handles very well.

With the light recoil and muzzle report, and trigger, I may have a different point of reference being a young, but with subsonic ammo it feels almost like shooting a high quality airsoft gun that happens to have 9mm rounds go downrange.  Doing up-drills due to how quiet it was and the comparatively low energy of the round I could not hear if I was making hits at 50 yards on steel with ARs going off around me.

I think its a nice enough gun to plink with, but for the cost of the platform unless someone is super recoil sensitive I don't really see much use for it.  

Low speed, you still need to go post an intro in the new guy forum. It was suggested to you acweek or so ago and still it hasn’t been done. 

Mojo/Mark
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Vincent from "Collateral"
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You want the good life, you break your back, you snap your fingers, you snap your neck... Prong/Demon Hunter
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Because...I Can. 


Joined: 9/30/09
Location: Northern Nevada (Reno/Sparks)

In my previous life I used/abused/ and basically loved-to-death, a few different MP-5 variants.

For the most part my experience mirrors CWS726. I never understood what kind of German sorcery allowed guns to run fine, but upon disassembly find the roller assembly had come undone. 

Many of ours did not age well, the weight of clamped double mags would sometimes cause unintended unloading. Ooops! Oh, and did anyone else have the shoulder pad(foot) on the collapsible stock break off? We eventually stopped replacing them and just ground them smooth and circular.

Other subguns I've used include the Beretta M12, which we tested and rejected. They had multiple issues. Some very unhappy Italian gentleman declared the problem was the magazines (allegedly not made in house at the time). Beretta took them all back and replaced them with M92 pistols.

We started with S&W 76s, great bit of history, but otherwise. No. Damn things would go off "for like no reason". My unit actually started with Thompsons and Lever Guns, but I'm not That Old.

One final note on the MP5, has anyone else ever used a variant called HK SMG2/SMG2000 ?  They were (are?) perfect, combining all the cool smoothness of the MP5 with controls akin to the M4- bolt holds open on last round, mag drop button and bolt release buttons on the frame above the magwell. Ambidexterous IIRC.

"Life is Good!"

SGreen posted:

 

...has anyone else ever used a variant called HK SMG2/SMG2000 ?  They were (are?) perfect, combining all the cool smoothness of the MP5 with controls akin to the M4- bolt holds open on last round, mag drop button and bolt release buttons on the frame above the magwell. Ambidexterous IIRC.

Are you saying you got to play with these? It was my previous understanding that these were all prototype level things not issued, and maybe barely or not even released for testing to anyone outside HK. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Heck yeah I got to use 'em! If the guys they belonged to weren't such a good group I don't think I could have given it back.

This lead to a funny phone call to HKUSA, I called to start a formal request to purchase-

"Hi, I'm PO so-and-so from this place, we may be interested in purchasing some 9mm SMG2000s" HK rep "Uh, hold on......." wait on hold -different rep comes on "Hi, um..., where did you learn of these guns?"     My response "Well if you don't know, I can't say." After some awkward  moments they inform us that we may have seen the only ones 'in the wild' and there was no plan to produce any more.

"Life is Good!"

Never seen the 2000 outside of books and Grey Room pics, but I've always been led to understand a few made it to field trial/prototype testing with some gentlemen having long hair, closed mouths and a complete lack of worshiping the hair product. 

The one or two I've known, of course never commented one way or the other.

 

Always thought it looked to be the "ultimate MP5 variant".

 

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So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

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