Short/long lengths.
Sand/OD-ish as additional color options.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ON THE WWAAAYYY!!! followed by OH SHIT!!! means you won't be getting that promotion.

Wearing a $400 shell in a place where none of the locals wear shells screams "I'm a cop," the color doesn't matter.

Confused <"WTF, who that dude?"

<"I don't know, but his baller ass jacket costs $500, let's go jack his ass..."

Anyway, I'm not LE but if you wore some dirty bird kit where I grew up, you would be pegged a mile out unless we were on the slopes, and then, we would still peg you as a rich dude. Just sayin'. Not a flame on anyone, or on Arc'teryx, they make expensive clothing, and their civilian stuff is worn by the more well to do, or the consumer who buys his gear for the next 10 seasons Wink. You can find some righteous deals on their civy gear this time of year, and if it's too much, the competition is... well, it's competetive.

That all being said....

From a dealer's perspective, I will echo the previous comments on sizing; go with short, regular and long.

You guys make awesome high end kit and people love it... except I think I am yet to sell a single pair of your pants, really, why even bother with that many models when one type of pant could cover the full spectrum of what people want out of austere weather pants? Make one level six item and drop the others. Make it slightly baggy for underlayers, easy removal, and make it competetively priced with what other cold/ wet wx clothing is out there.

NOW, my biggest pet peeve, accept this fact and you will make $$$$!!! Some of your customers are big dudes; not fat, but big; in America we have muscles, to include elite SOF units whose $ you seek. Make items that fit them, or don't make $ off of them. How hard is that to understand? Yeah, we have guys built like cross country skis, slim, light, built for the long haul. However, some of our boys can smoke the piss out of those lanky fucks and pack some girth, it's a fact, ignoring that fact loses you sales.

TAD Gear liked to tell people in so many words to lose weight if they wanted to fit into their shells... guess what? I know guys in XXXXX that don't fit in your shit because they have big shoulders, barrel chests, and 22 inch biceps. Don't make the same mistake that FAD did. Boney arms don't carry 30 lbs worth of machine gun and ammo very well, some of us are big guys, not all, but some... ACCEPT THIS FACT AND MAKE CLOTHES FOR THEM. I'm not fat (my name is an ironic nickname) and some of your items don't fit me with base layers on. That = no soup for you! It's that simple. Honestly my winter coat is a NF jacket I got on sale with a fleece liner in OD for $150, it fits better than any A'Tx item out there on me, and standing on the top of Whistler in high winds didn't even get a "brrrr" out of me, $150, just sayin', that coat's going to my next winter warfare tng and on any OEF rotation I'll do. Why? Because it fits, I could have pulled a Combat Jacket off my shelves for T&E, but it's not working with what I anticipated having to wear under it.

If you refuse to build for the bigger boned, just close your eyes and pretend you're sewing items for snowboarders who want baggy clothes, that won't be a stretch.

FR? Base layers in FR wouldn't hurt.

HTH, this wasn't meant to be a flame session, I have $20K worth of your gear on my shelves and sell it for a great reason, but there is definitely room for improvement, so there's my constructive criticism.
quote:
I could have pulled a Combat Jacket off my shelves for T&E


EDIT: I meant Alpha Jacket, my bad.
Personally I don't care about fr, but the people who want it usually want it rated as fr. Just mentioned it because it was brought up, hence the lack of anything further.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jon, OPT

www.optactical.com

 

"We can take 300 million casualties and still fight and win. What other nation can do that?" -Mao Tse Tung-

 

"I do account for nonrational actors in my worldview. And when they threaten violence against global order, I say: Kill them." -Thomas P.M. Barnett

 

"If at first you don`t succeed, failure may be your thing." -Warren Miller

quote:
Originally posted by Fatty:

NOW, my biggest pet peeve, accept this fact and you will make $$$$!!! Some of your customers are big dudes; not fat, but big; in America we have muscles, to include elite SOF units whose $ you seek. Make items that fit them, or don't make $ off of them. How hard is that to understand? Yeah, we have guys built like cross country skis, slim, light, built for the long haul. However, some of our boys can smoke the piss out of those lanky fucks and pack some girth, it's a fact, ignoring that fact loses you sales.


Preach it Brother Fatty!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A difficult child at best, fit neither for the cloth nor the pen, too dangerous to be unleashed upon society and too horrible to let live, but yet too brilliant and unique to destroy; He was eventually given over to The Ft. Benning School For Boys to receive the proper education and be brought up right -as both a savior and destroyer of man.

So with the TALOS why did you stop at combat shirt?
to be honest I dont see anyone but conventional forces wearing it combat shirts. the poor recce guys and people still running around jungles, mountains, etc need a regular jacket/ top that protects, breathes, and still has "cargo" space. maybe a modernized BDU jacket with "da Bird" flavor...

TK
Offer a shell with EVENT or your own proprietary membrane that breathes better than Gore Pro-shell. I'll second the pants in longer sizes and I would like to see a more straight leg version of your pants. The super tapered pants seem uncomfortable to me.
Fatty and Tom K; as far as jackets, are you talking about some sort of bush jacket?

------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers
 

I never mentioned building any specific new product other than one type of pant, preferably that can be put on while wearing boots.

For jackets, if you are going to charge a guy $500 for a coat, making it in sizing options would be ideal, or just accept lower sales volume which will keep your pricing astronomical.

If I were to recommend a top it would be one for Talos with chest pockets and full open front as well, lightweight with pit zips. My other top would be a wet wx top, light weight, with panels for unit and FF ID on the sides (velcro panels), just a raincoat.

As for new items, IMHO they sell too many as it is already, this confuses consumers, proven fact. The whole 7 or 9 level system thing doesn't make sense to me anyway, being I was raised in cold wx climates, that shit must have been thought of by some pussified hot wx animal. Baselayer, one to two midlayers and a wxproof shell is all you need. If you're going static-exposed in the arctic, then you need additional clothing.

The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.

I think Arc'teryx's direction is well on course, consolidation of the product line to what war fighters want that serve MULTIPLE purposes, varying sizes, and the ability for the kit to adapt to the warfighter, not the warfighter to adapt to the kit. This last point was addressed VERY well with all their recent items. When I am cold do I have to shed kit and pput on a jacket? Or can I do something to what I am wearing already that will effect that change? Dropping my sleeves off my shoulders is a lot easier and safer in a combat environ than dropping my armor and putting on a shell.

If they want to take this further, they could (as mentioned by previous poster) develop a kit line designed to integrate with their tops. soft armor carriers that are very low pro for under outerlayers, thus protecting them from elements, while a layer for kit on top that can be worn that can rapidly change sizing if extra layers are needed, thus leaving the wearer with some level of protection (soft armor underneath) should they have the in-extremis case of having to remove their webbing and hard plates (if not integrated with soft armor).

That should more than answer your question Duke.
I know that I am a little late chiming in, but as stated on the first page, pit zips on the Bravo would be awesome.

Thanks, and keep up the great work!
Well I think they need to finish the ensemble. Combat shirt and pants to top it off you need a jacket too. Say I buy a dozen of these and its middle of winter. Wouldn't be nice to have the regular jacket on over some cold weather gear. If I mix and match my Crye field jacket with the talos pant they contrast. Yes same pattern but the materials are lighter and darker due to the different types of material used.
Maybe that's the uniformity piece that the CSM's will want but im a little ocd and want my tops to match nut bottoms.
Thanks so much LFers; this information is going directly into new products. I'll be asking some of you to test prototypes this summer.

Fatty: On the level systems: we build what the customers need. If it's in in our line, some unit asked for it and they have tested and approved it, often in combat. Products don't always make lot of sense to me at first but it's almost always exactly what some group/squadron/team needs or think they need for their mission,terrain,tactics, and equipment. If you need something else for your job, that's why I'm here. If you need beta on who typically buys what, ask DK.

On sizing: I need some data on what we need to make. Retailers and unit buyers, get in touch with me if you have size curves you can share.

Tom K: On a Nylon Cotton Jacket, what exactly does it need to do? PM me if you prefer.

"a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory." - Max Webber from Politics as a Vocation

quote:
Originally posted by logos:
On sizing: I need some data on what we need to make. Retailers and unit buyers, get in touch with me if you have size curves you can share.


Try starting with the sizes of uniform that the military is issuing. The US Army has spent a metric fuck-ton of money trying to figure this out over the last 40 years. ...All you have to do is borrow their sizing scheme.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A difficult child at best, fit neither for the cloth nor the pen, too dangerous to be unleashed upon society and too horrible to let live, but yet too brilliant and unique to destroy; He was eventually given over to The Ft. Benning School For Boys to receive the proper education and be brought up right -as both a savior and destroyer of man.

A bit late to the party here. My only suggestion would be to carefuly consider whether various jackets actually need hoods.

Hoods limit peripheral vision, audio accuity, audio distance and bearing perception and generally lower situational awareness. For me personally, this is unacceptable while I'm at work. Or at any time, thinking about it.

I realise that the various schemes for hood stowage are better than a huge flapping thing at the back of your neck, but stowing hoods in collars tends to produce a very large, very bulky collar that likes to stand up when it isn't required to.

This is something that TAD got absolutely right with their stealth jacket (or whatever the soft shell was called) - a relatively tall collar but one that can easily be folded down. And no damned hood.

My personal opinion is that nothing that will be worn in a LE situation should have a hood. Hood = situational awareness fail.

========================

It doesn't need a damned hood!!

quote:
Originally posted by Fatty:
I never mentioned building any specific new product other than one type of pant, preferably that can be put on while wearing boots.

For jackets, if you are going to charge a guy $500 for a coat, making it in sizing options would be ideal, or just accept lower sales volume which will keep your pricing astronomical.

If I were to recommend a top it would be one for Talos with chest pockets and full open front as well, lightweight with pit zips. My other top would be a wet wx top, light weight, with panels for unit and FF ID on the sides (velcro panels), just a raincoat.

As for new items, IMHO they sell too many as it is already, this confuses consumers, proven fact. The whole 7 or 9 level system thing doesn't make sense to me anyway, being I was raised in cold wx climates, that shit must have been thought of by some pussified hot wx animal. Baselayer, one to two midlayers and a wxproof shell is all you need. If you're going static-exposed in the arctic, then you need additional clothing.

The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.

I think Arc'teryx's direction is well on course, consolidation of the product line to what war fighters want that serve MULTIPLE purposes, varying sizes, and the ability for the kit to adapt to the warfighter, not the warfighter to adapt to the kit. This last point was addressed VERY well with all their recent items. When I am cold do I have to shed kit and pput on a jacket? Or can I do something to what I am wearing already that will effect that change? Dropping my sleeves off my shoulders is a lot easier and safer in a combat environ than dropping my armor and putting on a shell.

If they want to take this further, they could (as mentioned by previous poster) develop a kit line designed to integrate with their tops. soft armor carriers that are very low pro for under outerlayers, thus protecting them from elements, while a layer for kit on top that can be worn that can rapidly change sizing if extra layers are needed, thus leaving the wearer with some level of protection (soft armor underneath) should they have the in-extremis case of having to remove their webbing and hard plates (if not integrated with soft armor).

That should more than answer your question Duke.


So... not a bush jacket.

Very enlightening. Thanks.

------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers
 

quote:

Originally from Fatty:
The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.


You really are too smart to be working for Uncle Sugar...... I have thought that since they started with the concept and it always puzzled me.... Like you, growing up in the cold, it was simple concepts that worked well.
quote:
Originally posted by Duke:

So... not a bush jacket.

Very enlightening. Thanks.


What do you call it when someone is long winded in the written form? Big Grin

I'm pretty passionate about keeping clothing simple, or anything simple for that matter.

Harv: yep it's kind of confusing to leave the US and cold weather for about 12 years and come back to find the entire clothing ensemble paradigm has been smashed and replaced in many ways for the better but in some ways that make you say WTF??? What happened to putting bread bags in your boots to keep your feet dry?

Logos: Understood, many A'T items are made based on customer needs (ie I like this jacket but want it in tactical colors, with slight mods) and requests rather than being developed on a proactive level and HOPING someone buys them, that's just smart business. My problem is I work in other places besides the desert; jungles, forests, the rainy sections of the world and not always in body armor either (heaven forbid).

I have some questions for Logos then: are you implying product line consolidation on your end is not gonna happen proactively and products will be designed based on future customer needs statements? Or will A'T develop .mil items based on multiple environmental needs for the future? Either way, your line could offer everything for all environs and loadouts and still have less base items (hopefully more overall items if you expand sizing options) compared to the melange of stuff you carry right now. The bottom line is this, if your items are selling, deleting them from the line would not be smart, legacy items tend to sell themselves, but developing some items such as rainwear, and non-combat Talos tops would be great enhancements. If you considered turning the line upside down, shaking everything out and starting over, I and many more people would have tons of suggestions may of which I'm sure include keeping a lot of current items.
quote:
What happened to putting bread bags in your boots to keep your feet dry?


Wonder bread for the win.....
You can always do the removable hood and tall collar, then you would have the best of both worlds.

---------------------------------------

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Do or do not....there is no try.

[url]www.jonestactical.com[/url]

Logos, We do need some bigger sizes for the weightlifter types, especially in the jackets. Even the XXL did not fit me when I tried them on at Gray Group.

As for keeping in the lineup, the knee caps are the best knee pads I have ever worn. I was very sceptical when I first tested a set in 09, but I liked them, bought them, and used them on my last trip. One mission was 5 days in length, I never took them off, and barely noticed they were there. No other knee pad could do that. The straps seemed flimsy and the plasic buckly seemed like it would never hold, but even on and off aircraft, even if one strap would pop, the other stayed put. The knee caps are a solid product that everyone liked. I have the foliage and black color scheme, maybe an all ranger green scheme would be better, but if the bad guys are down to identifying me by my knees, they are pretty close already.

Thanks

Joe
joesfmech- Pleas post your introduction HERE as per forum rules.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

All,
Thanks for the feedback. One of our designers and I will be hanging out at the Grey Group Store this Friday (July 9th) from 1 till whenever they shut down if you'd like to give us a piece of your in person.

"a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory." - Max Webber from Politics as a Vocation

quote:
Originally posted by logos:
All,
Thanks for the feedback. One of our designers and I will be hanging out at the Grey Group Store this Friday (July 9th) from 1 till whenever they shut down if you'd like to give us a piece of your in person.


Bro, it kills me that I cannot be there for that.

I don't have a lot to add to the mix, but I can tell you that I am in the process of getting rid of all of my crap gear and replacing it with Crye and Arcteryx. It is a costly endeavor, and it will take me awhile, but I firmly believe in your commitment to quality and bringing solid clothing to those of us that have to go towards the sound of guns. I don't own a single piece of gear from your company that I am not ecstatic over.

Thanks for such a great product.

__________________________

"Have a vision not clouded by fear." A Cherokee proverb "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance." Socrates

 

Joined: 2005                                Location: Georgia

Tracker,
Sorry you can't make it. Our rep's show room is in GA and we do LEAF events there periodically - I'll let you know about the next one.

Oh and it's Saturday the 9th not Friday the 8th we'll be in the Pro Shop.

The designers and myself will be in a dozen or more cities/bases all over the US(VB,SLC,LA,SD at least), Canada and Europe meeting end users and doing research for future seasons this summer. If I get time between meetings we'll try and do a meet and greet set up. Keep your eyes on our Facebook page.

"a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory." - Max Webber from Politics as a Vocation

quote:
Originally posted by logos:
Tracker,
Sorry you can't make it. Our rep's show room is in GA and we do LEAF events there periodically - I'll let you know about the next one.


Awesome. Count me in.

__________________________

"Have a vision not clouded by fear." A Cherokee proverb "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance." Socrates

 

Joined: 2005                                Location: Georgia

Finally got a Talos Top and the pit zips make it by far the best under plater carrier top I've worn. Money for the mountains on the Af-Pak border now that the temps are really starting to heat up.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's time to prove to your friends that you're worth a damn, and sometimes that means dying, and sometimes that means killing a whole lot of people." -Clive Owen - Sin City

quote:
Originally posted by logos:
Tracker,
Sorry you can't make it. Our rep's show room is in GA and we do LEAF events there periodically - I'll let you know about the next one.



Where is the GA showroom? I'm in Columbus and I'd like to visit.
An'it's Tommy this, an'Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An'Tommy aint a bloomin' fool--you bet that Tommy sees!
quote:
Originally posted by snakedoctor:
Can we get patch panels on the Wraith Jacket?


Not Logos, however I'm curious, what is the need for or reasoning behind the patch panels? I'm thinking we ask for X we need to explain why it is needed to support our request.
For lack of a better place to ask, and not wishing to start a new topic:

Does anyone have a H150 Rigger's Belt on hand, and be willing to measure its effective thickness? In particular, for mounting on the flanks and rear, what size hardwear would one use if hanging\attaching things to it?

Jules

Runcible, belt is 1/16" x 2". "Two slot" style attachments work great, fixed kydex loops less well, and Blue Force Gears Helium series the best.

snakedoc, we can have patch panels added aftermarket for $$ but it will increase the weight and packed size significantly. Would a heat transfer or screen print satisfy your needs (it would be lighter and maybe cheaper).

"a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory." - Max Webber from Politics as a Vocation

The thinnest portion of the belt is the actual body of the belt that is multicam. It is roughly 1/8 of an inch.

The thickest point of the belt is the end of the webbing that actual goes through the buckle. It is folded to three layers thick and bartacked. That is 3/8 of an inch.

NOTE: This was done as inaccurately as possible with a ruler and not with any kind of caliper.

It is not thick at all, my leather belt and all other riggers belts I have in the house are thicker.

ETA: logos and I posted at the same time, I would trust his measurements over mine Wink

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