Lightfighters,
We are in the process of setting the design direction for Arc'teryx LEAF. I'd like to get you feedback on what you dislike about your LEAF gear. Of course if there is a particular feature you absolutely love and don't want us to change let us know. This is you chance to shape future LEAF products.

A couple of points of guidance:
1) The price is the price: prices aren't going to go down, we're simply not willing to compromise on quality. If you got a great deal through the pro-deal, please don't share: you got the that price because of what you do, there's no need to tease the window lickers.

2)Please many details on your garment and the uses you put it to as you can, including where you bought it. We've had a rash of knock-offs come in for warranty recently, so we want to make sure your commenting on our stuff not a 'replica'.
Original Post
put the napoleon pockets zippers to the side and not centered. I refer to the Alpha LT. Also make a Leaf version of the GAMMA LT! Put bigger Velcro retainer on the Gryphon Hood. It's hard to put it back in place in a rush.

I buy my stuff from GrayGroupTraining.

I'm sure more will come to me later...
I think the LEAF program needs to get on the FR bandwagon with regards to their base and mid layering pieces.

There have been some great strides made in FR wicking and insulating fabric technology in the last 5 years, and that has not been reflected in the LEAF program.

Even if you expanded your LEAF offerings in merino wool, that would be a good start.
First of all let me start by saying I'm an Arctery'x fiend. I own the Sidewinder SV, Gamma SV Jacket and Bibs, Gamma MX, Bravo Pant and Jacket, Alpha Jacket and Pants, Chiamera Shirt, and Cam SV glove. All have been purchased from reliable vendors or the LEAF program directly.

I'll echo what Alpinist said by seconding the FR need. I think going in a Merino wool direction would be interesting.

Also I wouldn't mind seeing equipment made by Arctery'x. It would be very cool to be the first kid on the block with a Chest Plate made by you folks.

I think Arctery'x is poised to be one of the only companies that can compete directly with the quality of companies like Crye Precision, and since they are diversifying into the garment world more heavily, I think it would benefit you to do the same into the gear industry.

As a voracious consumer of your products, I would be happy to demo or test anything you have to offer.
Wink
Some larger sizes would help--as it is, there is nothing Arctery'x makes that fits me. I'm ~6'3", 255-ish lbs., wear a 52L suit coat, and even the XXL shells I've tried don't fit (both too snug around the chest and way too short in the sleeves). While I could stand to lose a few pounds (am running my nads off to do just that), I'm in reasonably good shape but the lack of any garment from Arctery'x that would fit me forced my hand towards buying a softshell from a different maker that fit properly.
When I first discovered Arc'teryx it was via your packs (specifically the Wire). I've had half a dozen of your packs for various needs over the years, but I feel like there has been little/no innovation in your packs.

I've had a need for lighter and faster packs - 25L would be ideal with external and internal pockets. I was using an LBT 2595G and it was a great pack until the nylon webbing failed on the straps and my $400 pack fell apart.

I have since reverted to the Axios 25 and the Hornet 18. The Axios has the best straps and back, bar none, of any pack I've ever used but the generic interior and placement of the internal pocket is constantly in the way. The Hornet is much lighter and great for a few hours, but the shape is not ideal when loaded(basically creates a hump), and the drink pockets on both are a total waste of time.

I got to check out the Mystery Ranch Spartan at Shot this year and it was ideal. However, for whatever reason, when I have called them about producing it, I've been told the pack probably will never be actual made.

I feel like Arc'teryx should own tactical packs. You own packs in the civ sector.

So yes, I would like urban use 24 hour sustainment packs that can rock a camelback and have 25-27 L of storage. Thanks Smile

j
Incorporating X-static fabric on the Bravo jacket to keep odors from being too offensive.

I don't have any gaping holes on my Alpha jacket/pants from the occasional concrete tunnel crawl but I would like to see additional reinforcement of typical wear areas (elbows, back of forearms , cuffs, and knees.)

Keep the stowable hood on the Alpha jacket.

Additional color offerings would be nice...how about dark navy, dark grey, or ranger green?
quote:
Originally posted by jvencius:
Some larger sizes would help--as it is, there is nothing Arctery'x makes that fits me. I'm ~6'3", 255-ish lbs., wear a 52L suit coat, and even the XXL shells I've tried don't fit (both too snug around the chest and way too short in the sleeves). While I could stand to lose a few pounds (am running my nads off to do just that), I'm in reasonably good shape but the lack of any garment from Arctery'x that would fit me forced my hand towards buying a softshell from a different maker that fit properly.


Concur. I have the same issue. Especially when wearing any layering garments, or any type of armor, having things designed for guys who are built bigger would definately help sales, and expand the line.

I'd also like to see more colors. Not all LEAF-types are on tactical teams or war-zones. Some of us can't wear multicam to work, and crocodile makes us stand out as well. I'm currently assigned to a central European post, and black or navy would blend in a lot more than other colors.
quote:
I'd also like to see more colors. Not all LEAF-types are on tactical teams or war-zones. Some of us can't wear multicam to work, and crocodile makes us stand out as well. I'm currently assigned to a central European post, and black or navy would blend in a lot more than other colors.


LEAF is currently combat-specific. If you want that, every LEAF product has a civilian Arcteryx counterpart except for the hybrid stuff (chimera, sphinx, etc.)
So i like the Leaf stuff like it is, the idea on the alpha jacket with the opening on the side is a good idea.

About the colours, I love the crocodile a lot and would like to have the talos also in that colour. I don´t need any other colour like black and crocodile.

About the sizes i can´t say much i fit in large and x-large.

It might be awesome if there would be some more dealers over here in europe, especially germany where u can buy the leaf series. I already asked the biggest company in germany for military and law enforcement which is recon company if the could get the leaf gear but they declined my request. I´m pretty sorry about that cause they have a lot of awesome gear and i buy most of my stuff from them, cause i prefer to get it all out of one hand, so maybe you can set up more dealers over here.
Keep the Alpha jacket. It is a GREAT piece of kit, I own two. I love the stow hood also. The only change that I would like to see, is maybe offer the black Alpha with no velcro on the sleeve.

Lynn
Thanks for the response so far: this is really helpful.

I can't get in to specifics but of the issues being brought up will be addressed in the next 18-24 months.

If you civilian colors/features we make a few hundred options: check out www.arcteryx.com and veilance.arcteryx.com

For Merino option we have the Rho LTW (Light Weight Wool) and the Eon series. We aren't doing merino outerwear because the fabrics don't meet our durability standards for outerwear (a life span of at least 100 working days in the bush) unless you mix in a bunch of nylon.

FR is strange. Big army types world-wide say it's necessary but when I talk to the soldier systems research scientist and the force mods of SoF units they say it's a boondoggle. Why do you need FR? What level of protection do you need? Is fire really a bigger hazard than heat causalities and hypothermia?

Thanks again and keep the feedback coming.
now this wouldnt directly be say combat uniform related, but something a touch different,but military or police related.

what about a PT gear program? Here in canada each unit gets its own Regimental PT kit. normally, its standard cotton hoody, sweatpants, cotton shirt, and crappy chinese made UA style shirts and shorts.

id like to see us running around in arcteryx running jackets, softshells, shorts, t shirts, etc. i have a couple of arc coolmax shirts and a pair of running shorts, they would be awesome with our Unit Crest on it.

then i could get some decent PT kit.

just a thought.

EDIT: my girlfriend, and armored recce soldier, wants an expanded womens line. She owns lots of the civ line, but there isnt much for her in the leaf lineup.
Just a thought but has the dead bird ever thought of dabbling with footwear or is that all for your sister company Salomon?

Maybe some Salomon boots without all the reflectors and whatnot so they don't have to be spray painted ^_^;

j
I know the LEAF line is geared towards the MIL world, but the one thing I would love to see is Black as a standard color option for LE types.

I have my Black Bravo jacket and love it. I would love an Alpha LT or Atom LT in black for work.

I know there are Civi "equivalents", but since you asked, I thought I would tell... Wink
What's this fascination with black? Don't I keep reading on here that it's a the worst possible colour for tactical use and that it stands out in any environment?
Are your wearing LEAF for the CDI factor or is there a tactical reason that I'm not aware of?
Are police forces that care so little for office safety that they mandate black tactical uniforms really going to step up and buy Arc'teryx?
If a new colour that looked good with black gear but blended in to the urban/suburban environment better came to market would they buy it instead of black?
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
...Don't I keep reading on here that it's a the worst possible colour for tactical use and that it stands out in any environment?


Maybe so, but if a department mandates their officers wear black, for reasons good/bad/indifferent, it would be nice for those guys to at least have good-quality clothing and gear in a department-approved color vs. being stuck wearing shoddy gear that meets color requirements.
I'd rather wear a LE design friendly version of the ATOM LT on Duty than a 5.11 Duty Jacket.

I'm trying to convince admin to go to Black for jacets from a "Sheriff Green" color for ease of getting better jackets.
Love your stuff. It's expensive, but I'm ok with that.

However...

I've been a wrestler and a weightlifter all my life. I'm 6ft 220lbs and most of it is in my chest, neck and arms.

When I wear pants, Wink ...they are size large, and my top is extra large. Every brand I can think of fits using that approach, from BDU's to ASICS sweats. However an Arc'teryx "XL" top is just a large or even a medium with freakishly long arms. That doesn't work for me.

That's the only reason I don't have a closet full of your stuff.
I understand the price is what it is, high quality kit no doubt. That being said, Id like to see Firefighters/ search and rescue members added to the leaf program. I know A few guys on my end in NY city that would pick some gear up but just can't afford to without the leaf pricing.
Thanks
Stay Safe
Anthony
quote:
there's no need to tease the window lickers.


Retired after 23 years of putting bad guys in a "structured environment", I am now a apparently a "window licker". Thanks. ELN
quote:
Originally posted by Wyoming Shooter:
quote:
there's no need to tease the window lickers.


Retired after 23 years of putting bad guys in a "structured environment", I am now a apparently a "window licker". Thanks. ELN


+1

comments like that make me happy about my recent Otte Alpine purchase.

We're all on the same team. As a "window licker," I might make more money than the average Joe, true.

And I'll take that money where it's most appreciated.

Thanks for the heads up. I had been following this thread with interest. ETA- I had contacted Arc'teryx directly about private purchase of LEAF garments... apparently I don't make the grade as I only get up in the middle of the night to help the occasional working dog in an emergency. C'est la vie.

But since I keep getting the message that I'm a window licker, I'm beginning to feel like a TAD gear customer.
Gents, don't take it personally. It's one of those things where the legions of airsofters and posers see LEAF pricing, which is reduced pricing for people doing the job the clothing is designed for. Said "window lickers", a term I think we all support for said posers, then call retailers and Arcteryx asking for pricing that is solely for those on the job. I know because I work closely with Arcteryx, I work for Grey Group, and am a professional user of LEAF gear so I see it on all sides.

Note that John did not say everyone who didn't wear the stuff on DA missions is a window licker. He said that the guys the gear is designed for get the good pricing, as it should be.

Everyone else just has to pay retail. If you're not a window licker, then the comment does not apply to you. If you need it to perform your duties in the .mil/LE you get pricing that they are not obligated to offer. If you just want it...full price.

TAD is cool, if you want Condor at Arcteryx prices. I would encourage anyone who thinks there are better options or value in outdoor gear to seek out your region's Arcteryx rep and find out what goes into that jacket versus some sweat shop knockoff of a decade old TNF jacket.
First off, I think it's a complement that Arc'terx would solicit input from Lightfighter.

The main problem I've had with LEAF items is availability. When I've was ready to buy a new softshell and later a hardshell, nothing was stocked; this seems to be a constant.

If you want a bigger buy in from LE, a color expansion would help.
quote:
Gents, don't take it personally...


Thanks for the clarification. John's point could have been made without denigrating potential customers (e.g. me). That said, it's great that 1) Arcteryx is soliciting feedback from users and 2) Quality products are getting to our shooters at reduced prices.
quote:
Originally posted by doctorrich:
quote:
Originally posted by Wyoming Shooter:
Retired after 23 years of putting bad guys in a "structured environment", I am now a apparently a "window licker". Thanks. ELN


+1

comments like that make me happy about my recent Otte Alpine purchase.

We're all on the same team. As a "window licker," I might make more money than the average Joe, true.

And I'll take that money where it's most appreciated.


I was thinking that sounds like the unofficial HK "Because we hate you, and you suck" motto Mad and I'm liking my OTTE Alpine more and more now after reading that.
quote:
Originally posted by doctorrich:
Current customer who wears a lot of the Bird. And pays full-price from online dealers.

As do I.......with absolutely no complaints!! I would love to see a hood stow on the Alpha LT.
quote:
Originally posted by jvencius:
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
...Don't I keep reading on here that it's a the worst possible colour for tactical use and that it stands out in any environment?


Maybe so, but if a department mandates their officers wear black, for reasons good/bad/indifferent, it would be nice for those guys to at least have good-quality clothing and gear in a department-approved color vs. being stuck wearing shoddy gear that meets color requirements.


+1 Basically because that's the color I am told I have to wear for my jackets. I much prefer my Bravo jacket over the 5.11 jacket that almost everyone here wears. I don't have a problem paying for QUALITY products and would rather spend more $$ up front for a 1 time purchase that will last me.
quote:
Originally posted by jvencius:
quote:
Originally posted by doctorrich:
quote:
Originally posted by Wyoming Shooter:
Retired after 23 years of putting bad guys in a "structured environment", I am now a apparently a "window licker". Thanks. ELN


+1

comments like that make me happy about my recent Otte Alpine purchase.

We're all on the same team. As a "window licker," I might make more money than the average Joe, true.

And I'll take that money where it's most appreciated.


I was thinking that sounds like the unofficial HK "Because we hate you, and you suck" motto Mad and I'm liking my OTTE Alpine more and more now after reading that.


It's just like everything else...once the flavor of the month for tacti-cool changes & the fan boys find a different company to drool over Arc'teryx will go after the window lickers and posers money......
All,
The purpose of LEAF is to provide the best possible gear for the guy in harms way. We actively seek to discourage people who are not armed professional form buying LEAF product because it reduces our ability to serve the good guys.
No matter how aggressively we build we end up having to tell some unit that we won't have what they need in time for their deployment. That is a awful turn of events and a situation I do everything in my power to avoid. If you are NOT police or military please DON'T buy LEAF: we make thousands of other products just for you: please leave the LEAF stuff for the guys with their life on the line.
I know this is an odd way for a manufacture to act but we really are in this business for the soldiers and police, not for the revenue.
The bravo could use pit zips to increase temp range and drawcords inside the pockets so they don't stick out.

The combat jacket's bottom hem is insanely wide, which means if you don't pack a gut you have to cinch it up some. However, this bunches up the fabric to the point where you no longer have a proper seal against wind/dirt/bugs. I'd reccomend adjusting the hem size and relying on the fabric's stretchiness to create a good seal.

A LEAF version of the Hyllus would be awesome as a standalone piece or for layering under an Alpha.

A parka-lenght Alpha (think m65) for more coverage would be useful.
quote:
Originally posted by kemp:

The combat jacket's bottom hem is insanely wide, which means if you don't pack a gut you have to cinch it up some. However, this bunches up the fabric to the point where you no longer have a proper seal against wind/dirt/bugs. I'd reccomend adjusting the hem size and relying on the fabric's stretchiness to create a good seal.


I completely agree with this. So far I only own a Gamma AR and a Combat Jacket, the Gamma fits perfectly. It would be nice for the Combat Jacket to have less excess in the waist area.
an additional piece of velcro tape for name tag?
I find the cut of the alpha perfect for accessing holster and other items off the belt. However the combat jacket is longer, and i have to either tuck into my pants, or lift the jacket up each time I holster/reholster. cut them like an inverse U-shape on the sides?

the squamish hoodie in LEAF colours would be ideal.

Keep or look for improvements where pockets are still accessible when wearing knuckled gloves. Inside main pockets perhaps have compartmentalized inner zip pockets. say to keep items like lighter, smokes, chew, gum handy and snug while not bouncing around...

For the pants, is there a way to make a sort of and elasitisized liner, that can tuck into the boot, while, the outer pant leg remains over the boot. Kind of like snowboard pants. Help to keep the sand and crap from slipping in. The liner can be sepearted with snap buttons, much like the snowboard pants, so that it is still relative easy to take pants off while wearing boots.
I second pit zips in the bravo, and a stow-able hood on it would be great too, along with a LEAF hyllus.

How about a working glove similar to the rivet AR i.e. no insulation - that is hardened up a little for stand alone field use w/ good dexterity, feel, and durability and not designed as a layering glove.
I'd also like to see more colors. Not all LEAF-types are on tactical teams or war-zones. Some of us can't wear multicam to work, and crocodile makes us stand out as well. I'm currently assigned to a central European post, and black or navy would blend in a lot more than other colors.[/QUOTE]

+1.... I like your gear the best but have to wear other companies when I want to be a little more low key. Yes others have pointed out your civ equiv. line, but without discussing it too much....maybe the LEAF (mil/le) Direct program could include the civilian line also. I guess this is input aimed more toward the company itself then the LEAF line, but just giving my $.02.
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
All,
The purpose of LEAF is to provide the best possible gear for the guy in harms way. We actively seek to discourage people who are not armed professional form buying LEAF product because it reduces our ability to serve the good guys.
No matter how aggressively we build we end up having to tell some unit that we won't have what they need in time for their deployment. That is a awful turn of events and a situation I do everything in my power to avoid. If you are NOT police or military please DON'T buy LEAF: we make thousands of other products just for you: please leave the LEAF stuff for the guys with their life on the line.
I know this is an odd way for a manufacture to act but we really are in this business for the soldiers and police, not for the revenue.


Understood.

On the LEAF website for each product, could you place link to the civilian equivalent product? And add some 'LEAFish' colors to those products? Maybe that will take some pressure off of the LEAF line as those of us who are former .mil, LEO, etc. that prefer more subdued colors can still fill our needs.
I will also second what sawtooth said about packs. LEAF's pack selection is either laptop travel packs or a large expedition size pack. It would be nice to have additional packs in the smaller range. I was also excitedly looking forward to the mystery ranch spartan, and bummed to hear from sawtooth they may not make it.
For the LE side of LEAF two thoughts ... include a green somewhere between OD and ranger green given that a fair amount 'tactical' LE have gone to that color and crocodile isn't always compatible in the eyes of the admin. Also, I prefer the fuller cut towards the bottom of the combat jacket for concealing items/objects on the belt when not in uniform.

Thank you for asking for input!
quote:
Originally posted by rgrwilcox:
Offer "No shoulder velcro" as an option on the jackets that have shoulder velcro.


Can I ask why? Sorry for all the questions, but we can't just change things without some sort of rational.
quote:
Originally posted by nza:
an additional piece of velcro tape for name tag?
I find the cut of the alpha perfect for accessing holster and other items off the belt. However the combat jacket is longer, and i have to either tuck into my pants, or lift the jacket up each time I holster/reholster. cut them like an inverse U-shape on the sides?

the squamish hoodie in LEAF colours would be ideal.
Comming, Fall 2011, caled the Wraith. Also in white to be used as overwhites.
Keep or look for improvements where pockets are still accessible when wearing knuckled gloves. Inside main pockets perhaps have compartmentalized inner zip pockets. say to keep items like lighter, smokes, chew, gum handy and snug while not bouncing around...

For the pants, is there a way to make a sort of and elasitisized liner, that can tuck into the boot, while, the outer pant leg remains over the boot. Kind of like snowboard pants. Help to keep the sand and crap from slipping in. The liner can be sepearted with snap buttons, much like the snowboard pants, so that it is still relative easy to take pants off while wearing boots. Have you seen the new Sphinx, Gryphon and Talos? They all have intgrated gaiters.
[
On the LEAF website for each product, could you place link to the civilian equivalent product? And add some 'LEAFish' colors to those products? Maybe that will take some pressure off of the LEAF line as those of us who are former .mil, LEO, etc. that prefer more subdued colors can still fill our needs.[/QUOTE]

Good idea, we'll look into it.
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
Have you seen the new Sphinx, Gryphon and Talos? They all have intgrated gaiters.


Unfortunatley I have not. I have already used up my clothing allowance, so have not taken a closer look at those new items. Plus there is no LEAF showroom in Nanaimo. Seems like whenever I go to Vancouver I'm only harbour air for the day. Or in transit to elsewears, but one of these days, I will take you up on your offer to visit. i'm heading back overseas come mid May, and again, I won't have a chance to visit the store. BOLLOCKS>

good to know about the squamish hoody.
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
quote:
Originally posted by rgrwilcox:
Offer "No shoulder velcro" as an option on the jackets that have shoulder velcro.


Can I ask why? Sorry for all the questions, but we can't just change things without some sort of rational.


I can't answer for rgrwilcox but I listed the same request. There is a need to blend in at times for the LE mission and velcro on the sleeves screams "COP".

Lynn
It would be great to see pants that are sized S,M,L,XL to also have a short, regular and long option for length. Having the knee pad be significantly off the knee is not helpful.

If the LEAF line is for shooters only, then I agree that offering similar subdued civilian products is a good idea. Those working in inhospitable conditions can use good clothing, but the bright colors associated with much of the civilian line are not acceptable.

Regards,
Doc
quote:
Originally posted by hk24:
I can't answer for rgrwilcox but I listed the same request. There is a need to blend in at times for the LE mission and velcro on the sleeves screams "COP".

Lynn
While I've never been to the US or seen undercover cops there, Norwegian undercover cops can be spotted from miles away, and they mostly wear civilian brand clothing (like Bergans and Norrøna). It's not your clothing that gives you away, it's the over-all impression of you and your posture.

To answer logos regarding price, here in Norway the LEAF line is priced among the top-tier outdoor brands (like Bergans and Norrøna). Which I think is perfectly fine, as the bird is also among the top brands. This might only apply to Norway and the price Norwegian dealers have.
quote:
Originally posted by hk24:
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
quote:
Originally posted by rgrwilcox:
Offer "No shoulder velcro" as an option on the jackets that have shoulder velcro.


Can I ask why? Sorry for all the questions, but we can't just change things without some sort of rational.


I can't answer for rgrwilcox but I listed the same request. There is a need to blend in at times for the LE mission and velcro on the sleeves screams "COP".

Lynn


I am not LOGOs obviously but from the perspective of someone in the gear industry that has to deal with SKUs and stock it is easy for this sort of detail to become difficult to manage. Since each jacket is not made to order (that would increase lead times and decrease efficiency of production) they have to come up with another model number basically for the jacket with no velcro. Put that across four or five sizes and you have created a sizable dent in production output for the difference of a 4x4" piece of velcro.

Just something to consider, and it may not be an issue to Arcteryx but when I look at products that I work on I try to consider the cost/benefit ratio to the customer and the ability to have what the customer needs on the shelf. It is a balancing act.
A nice remedy to that might be offering as a standard option with all velcro sleeve garments two arc'teryx bird patches with matching color backgrounds and sizes. It probably wouldn't be cost prohibitive, would add a nice marketing touch to the product, and would probably help those garments to look a bit more outdoorish when low profile is needed.

Back on topic, I'd love to see:
-merino wool articulated balaclavas for warmth and FR protection
-gaiters for those times you don't wear pants with DWR finnish.
-Shooters gloves. I haven't tried the complete LEAF glove line but the few I've seen or tried weren't exactly trigger friendly, which I find odd for that market. I understand that insulation and dexterity usualy work against each other, but I would enjoy some specific mapping on the trigger finger. On the glove subject also, more camo/color options than just black.
-Black option on all the hybrid line. Like it's been said before, black is often the only alternative we LE types have.
-As for FR, from my small experience it's not important until something bad happens. A do-it-all DWR-breathable-FR garment would be nice as long as it performs the same as non FR ones and doesn't impact too much the price tag. Obviously I'm day dreaming right now but there's some interesting materials coming from the industry (i.e. Gore) that might fit the bill in the near future, so I hope you'll consider it at some point.

That's all I got right now
FR will at least double the price of the garments. (twice the fabric cost + a dedicated production line for ISO certification) Still interested?

On the Velcro thing, if you don't want velco
On you Gore-Tex jacket what wrong with an Alpha SV from REI? Price?
Logos,

I've sent you most of my thoughts/ideas directly, but I wanted to add to the wishlist.

I want to see the end all, be all lightweight glove. Highly articluated and breathable. Durable. Multicam. Basically a dirty bird version of the Camelback vent glove.

Thank you clothing Santa,
Stephen
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
Still interested?

Obviously not. I just hope that at some point the process and bulk prices will allow for something FR to happen with your company. Thanks for the interesting insight as far as costs.

quote:
Originally posted by logos:
On the Velcro thing, if you don't want velco
On you Gore-Tex jacket what wrong with an Alpha SV from REI? Price?

It's not wanting it or not. I have a use for the velcros on my alpha. But that's not always the case, especially in civies... I'd rather have a nice matching piece of cloth to hide them than buy another alpha altogether. But then again I'm cheap... Wink
I know we talk about this all the time, but for anyone else at the Bird reading it:

1: Offer long sizes: A lot of us are 34" waist, 34" inseam

2: Better closure on the stowable Gryphon hood
quote:
Originally posted by M4Guru:
I know we talk about this all the time, but for anyone else at the Bird reading it:

1: Offer long sizes: A lot of us are 34" waist, 34" inseam

2: Better closure on the stowable Gryphon hood


Agreed. im a 34x34 as well.
quote:
Originally posted by M4Guru:
I know we talk about this all the time, but for anyone else at the Bird reading it:

1: Offer long sizes: A lot of us are 34" waist, 34" inseam


Amen dude!
I vote in favor of Stubby/Regular/Long sizing on both the Trousers and the tops. Those of us with long legs tend to also have long.... torso's and arms.

In my experience, I have to go up a least one size bigger than optimal get tops to stay tucked in and sleeves to reach (and cover) my wrists. I had to go to a XXL to get long enough sleeves on my Dept. issue 5 in 1 jacket. It fits like a GP tent, and is still too short in the body.

And don't start the big/tall sizes at XL. A tall/medium would be perfect. And you would be the only company in the world doing it, aside from a few Gov. contractors who make med/tall bdu tops.
As others have said, thank you for both the generous law enforcement discounts and your aggressive input from customers.

quote:
Originally posted by rgrwilcox:
Offer "No shoulder velcro" as an option on the jackets that have shoulder velcro.


THIS, for the same reason others have mentioned.
quote:
Originally posted by SNDT1319:
Has Arc'teryx thought of partnering with another company to do a value line similar to what Mystery Ranch does with CamelBak?


stepping wildly out of my lane here, but that sounds like it would be contrary to about every principle the bird adheres to.
quote:
Originally posted by kemp:
quote:
Originally posted by SNDT1319:
Has Arc'teryx thought of partnering with another company to do a value line similar to what Mystery Ranch does with CamelBak?


stepping wildly out of my lane here, but that sounds like it would be contrary to about every principle the bird adheres to.


They have, it's called vertx.
I have a Alpha jacket, Atom LT and just bought a Covert Cardigan (which appears to have been dicontinued in LEAF form?). I really like all the jackets I've bought from Arc. The only thing I "dislike" is on the Atom LT jacket the polartec side panels are beginning to pile on the right side where a G19 usually resides. Full disclosure, the G19 has been stippled so it is rougher than a stock pistol, which is likely the cause of the wear. I am not complaining about this, I don't expect the jacket to be light as a feather and wear like stainless steel. Maybe I'll somehow attach a patch made of abrasion resitant material in that area to prevent more wear. Anyway, thought you might want to know.
If you want to discourage non mil and leo from purchasing your products then why not only make them available to that market? If you don't qualify for the special LEAF price then you can't purchase?

I'll freely admit that the majority of your products are out of my price range. Being regular infantry I don't get a special clothing allowance but I do find the majority of the issued kit to be at least adequate. I have only one suggestion and that would be your colour options or lack thereof. Your base layers (merino), neck gaiter, helmet liner and beanies all look great but they're only available in black. The majority of people in the Canadian Forces can not get away with wearing this colour. If it were offered in OD then I could see myself buying them. Especially the helmet liner/beanies. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find something that will fit comfortably under the issued helmet and is OD?
quote:
Your base layers (merino), neck gaiter, helmet liner and beanies all look great but they're only available in black.


or even better will be crocodile cause you could wear that colour with multicam too.
quote:
Originally posted by BKEE:
Id like LEAF extended to paramedics and USAR teams.


Paramedics and SAR teams are eligible for the outdoor Pro program (http://arcteryx.com/Pro-Purchase.aspx?EN ) as those garments are typically more suited to their needs.
I would also like to see more offerings in black as well. In more "Urban" environments black tends to scream "Im a cop" less than the earth tones do in-regards to plainclothes and UC assignments.
Wearing a $400 shell in a place where none of the locals wear shells screams "I'm a cop," the color doesn't matter.

Confused <"WTF, who that dude?"

<"I don't know, but his baller ass jacket costs $500, let's go jack his ass..."

Anyway, I'm not LE but if you wore some dirty bird kit where I grew up, you would be pegged a mile out unless we were on the slopes, and then, we would still peg you as a rich dude. Just sayin'. Not a flame on anyone, or on Arc'teryx, they make expensive clothing, and their civilian stuff is worn by the more well to do, or the consumer who buys his gear for the next 10 seasons Wink. You can find some righteous deals on their civy gear this time of year, and if it's too much, the competition is... well, it's competetive.

That all being said....

From a dealer's perspective, I will echo the previous comments on sizing; go with short, regular and long.

You guys make awesome high end kit and people love it... except I think I am yet to sell a single pair of your pants, really, why even bother with that many models when one type of pant could cover the full spectrum of what people want out of austere weather pants? Make one level six item and drop the others. Make it slightly baggy for underlayers, easy removal, and make it competetively priced with what other cold/ wet wx clothing is out there.

NOW, my biggest pet peeve, accept this fact and you will make $$$$!!! Some of your customers are big dudes; not fat, but big; in America we have muscles, to include elite SOF units whose $ you seek. Make items that fit them, or don't make $ off of them. How hard is that to understand? Yeah, we have guys built like cross country skis, slim, light, built for the long haul. However, some of our boys can smoke the piss out of those lanky fucks and pack some girth, it's a fact, ignoring that fact loses you sales.

TAD Gear liked to tell people in so many words to lose weight if they wanted to fit into their shells... guess what? I know guys in XXXXX that don't fit in your shit because they have big shoulders, barrel chests, and 22 inch biceps. Don't make the same mistake that FAD did. Boney arms don't carry 30 lbs worth of machine gun and ammo very well, some of us are big guys, not all, but some... ACCEPT THIS FACT AND MAKE CLOTHES FOR THEM. I'm not fat (my name is an ironic nickname) and some of your items don't fit me with base layers on. That = no soup for you! It's that simple. Honestly my winter coat is a NF jacket I got on sale with a fleece liner in OD for $150, it fits better than any A'Tx item out there on me, and standing on the top of Whistler in high winds didn't even get a "brrrr" out of me, $150, just sayin', that coat's going to my next winter warfare tng and on any OEF rotation I'll do. Why? Because it fits, I could have pulled a Combat Jacket off my shelves for T&E, but it's not working with what I anticipated having to wear under it.

If you refuse to build for the bigger boned, just close your eyes and pretend you're sewing items for snowboarders who want baggy clothes, that won't be a stretch.

FR? Base layers in FR wouldn't hurt.

HTH, this wasn't meant to be a flame session, I have $20K worth of your gear on my shelves and sell it for a great reason, but there is definitely room for improvement, so there's my constructive criticism.
Personally I don't care about fr, but the people who want it usually want it rated as fr. Just mentioned it because it was brought up, hence the lack of anything further.
quote:
Originally posted by Fatty:

NOW, my biggest pet peeve, accept this fact and you will make $$$$!!! Some of your customers are big dudes; not fat, but big; in America we have muscles, to include elite SOF units whose $ you seek. Make items that fit them, or don't make $ off of them. How hard is that to understand? Yeah, we have guys built like cross country skis, slim, light, built for the long haul. However, some of our boys can smoke the piss out of those lanky fucks and pack some girth, it's a fact, ignoring that fact loses you sales.


Preach it Brother Fatty!

So with the TALOS why did you stop at combat shirt?
to be honest I dont see anyone but conventional forces wearing it combat shirts. the poor recce guys and people still running around jungles, mountains, etc need a regular jacket/ top that protects, breathes, and still has "cargo" space. maybe a modernized BDU jacket with "da Bird" flavor...

TK
Offer a shell with EVENT or your own proprietary membrane that breathes better than Gore Pro-shell. I'll second the pants in longer sizes and I would like to see a more straight leg version of your pants. The super tapered pants seem uncomfortable to me.
I never mentioned building any specific new product other than one type of pant, preferably that can be put on while wearing boots.

For jackets, if you are going to charge a guy $500 for a coat, making it in sizing options would be ideal, or just accept lower sales volume which will keep your pricing astronomical.

If I were to recommend a top it would be one for Talos with chest pockets and full open front as well, lightweight with pit zips. My other top would be a wet wx top, light weight, with panels for unit and FF ID on the sides (velcro panels), just a raincoat.

As for new items, IMHO they sell too many as it is already, this confuses consumers, proven fact. The whole 7 or 9 level system thing doesn't make sense to me anyway, being I was raised in cold wx climates, that shit must have been thought of by some pussified hot wx animal. Baselayer, one to two midlayers and a wxproof shell is all you need. If you're going static-exposed in the arctic, then you need additional clothing.

The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.

I think Arc'teryx's direction is well on course, consolidation of the product line to what war fighters want that serve MULTIPLE purposes, varying sizes, and the ability for the kit to adapt to the warfighter, not the warfighter to adapt to the kit. This last point was addressed VERY well with all their recent items. When I am cold do I have to shed kit and pput on a jacket? Or can I do something to what I am wearing already that will effect that change? Dropping my sleeves off my shoulders is a lot easier and safer in a combat environ than dropping my armor and putting on a shell.

If they want to take this further, they could (as mentioned by previous poster) develop a kit line designed to integrate with their tops. soft armor carriers that are very low pro for under outerlayers, thus protecting them from elements, while a layer for kit on top that can be worn that can rapidly change sizing if extra layers are needed, thus leaving the wearer with some level of protection (soft armor underneath) should they have the in-extremis case of having to remove their webbing and hard plates (if not integrated with soft armor).

That should more than answer your question Duke.
Well I think they need to finish the ensemble. Combat shirt and pants to top it off you need a jacket too. Say I buy a dozen of these and its middle of winter. Wouldn't be nice to have the regular jacket on over some cold weather gear. If I mix and match my Crye field jacket with the talos pant they contrast. Yes same pattern but the materials are lighter and darker due to the different types of material used.
Maybe that's the uniformity piece that the CSM's will want but im a little ocd and want my tops to match nut bottoms.
Thanks so much LFers; this information is going directly into new products. I'll be asking some of you to test prototypes this summer.

Fatty: On the level systems: we build what the customers need. If it's in in our line, some unit asked for it and they have tested and approved it, often in combat. Products don't always make lot of sense to me at first but it's almost always exactly what some group/squadron/team needs or think they need for their mission,terrain,tactics, and equipment. If you need something else for your job, that's why I'm here. If you need beta on who typically buys what, ask DK.

On sizing: I need some data on what we need to make. Retailers and unit buyers, get in touch with me if you have size curves you can share.

Tom K: On a Nylon Cotton Jacket, what exactly does it need to do? PM me if you prefer.
quote:
Originally posted by logos:
On sizing: I need some data on what we need to make. Retailers and unit buyers, get in touch with me if you have size curves you can share.


Try starting with the sizes of uniform that the military is issuing. The US Army has spent a metric fuck-ton of money trying to figure this out over the last 40 years. ...All you have to do is borrow their sizing scheme.
A bit late to the party here. My only suggestion would be to carefuly consider whether various jackets actually need hoods.

Hoods limit peripheral vision, audio accuity, audio distance and bearing perception and generally lower situational awareness. For me personally, this is unacceptable while I'm at work. Or at any time, thinking about it.

I realise that the various schemes for hood stowage are better than a huge flapping thing at the back of your neck, but stowing hoods in collars tends to produce a very large, very bulky collar that likes to stand up when it isn't required to.

This is something that TAD got absolutely right with their stealth jacket (or whatever the soft shell was called) - a relatively tall collar but one that can easily be folded down. And no damned hood.

My personal opinion is that nothing that will be worn in a LE situation should have a hood. Hood = situational awareness fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Fatty:
I never mentioned building any specific new product other than one type of pant, preferably that can be put on while wearing boots.

For jackets, if you are going to charge a guy $500 for a coat, making it in sizing options would be ideal, or just accept lower sales volume which will keep your pricing astronomical.

If I were to recommend a top it would be one for Talos with chest pockets and full open front as well, lightweight with pit zips. My other top would be a wet wx top, light weight, with panels for unit and FF ID on the sides (velcro panels), just a raincoat.

As for new items, IMHO they sell too many as it is already, this confuses consumers, proven fact. The whole 7 or 9 level system thing doesn't make sense to me anyway, being I was raised in cold wx climates, that shit must have been thought of by some pussified hot wx animal. Baselayer, one to two midlayers and a wxproof shell is all you need. If you're going static-exposed in the arctic, then you need additional clothing.

The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.

I think Arc'teryx's direction is well on course, consolidation of the product line to what war fighters want that serve MULTIPLE purposes, varying sizes, and the ability for the kit to adapt to the warfighter, not the warfighter to adapt to the kit. This last point was addressed VERY well with all their recent items. When I am cold do I have to shed kit and pput on a jacket? Or can I do something to what I am wearing already that will effect that change? Dropping my sleeves off my shoulders is a lot easier and safer in a combat environ than dropping my armor and putting on a shell.

If they want to take this further, they could (as mentioned by previous poster) develop a kit line designed to integrate with their tops. soft armor carriers that are very low pro for under outerlayers, thus protecting them from elements, while a layer for kit on top that can be worn that can rapidly change sizing if extra layers are needed, thus leaving the wearer with some level of protection (soft armor underneath) should they have the in-extremis case of having to remove their webbing and hard plates (if not integrated with soft armor).

That should more than answer your question Duke.


So... not a bush jacket.

Very enlightening. Thanks.
quote:

Originally from Fatty:
The concept of a soft shell is still sort of odd to me, I bought one a before we sold them just to see what the heck they are (a Patagonia IIRC). Let's see, it's not windproof, it's not waterproof, it kind of blocks both and costs twice as much as anything that blocks either. That's fucking genius, create an answer to a question not asked and charge double for stuff it does half as well as what it replaced... ooooh, but it has velcro on the sleeves, yay. Some are of great quality: Otte, Massif and Arc'teryx being the ones I like which actually act as advertised. Others are just glorified windbreakers, or just feel like durable papertowels on your body.


You really are too smart to be working for Uncle Sugar...... I have thought that since they started with the concept and it always puzzled me.... Like you, growing up in the cold, it was simple concepts that worked well.
quote:
Originally posted by Duke:

So... not a bush jacket.

Very enlightening. Thanks.


What do you call it when someone is long winded in the written form? Big Grin

I'm pretty passionate about keeping clothing simple, or anything simple for that matter.

Harv: yep it's kind of confusing to leave the US and cold weather for about 12 years and come back to find the entire clothing ensemble paradigm has been smashed and replaced in many ways for the better but in some ways that make you say WTF??? What happened to putting bread bags in your boots to keep your feet dry?

Logos: Understood, many A'T items are made based on customer needs (ie I like this jacket but want it in tactical colors, with slight mods) and requests rather than being developed on a proactive level and HOPING someone buys them, that's just smart business. My problem is I work in other places besides the desert; jungles, forests, the rainy sections of the world and not always in body armor either (heaven forbid).

I have some questions for Logos then: are you implying product line consolidation on your end is not gonna happen proactively and products will be designed based on future customer needs statements? Or will A'T develop .mil items based on multiple environmental needs for the future? Either way, your line could offer everything for all environs and loadouts and still have less base items (hopefully more overall items if you expand sizing options) compared to the melange of stuff you carry right now. The bottom line is this, if your items are selling, deleting them from the line would not be smart, legacy items tend to sell themselves, but developing some items such as rainwear, and non-combat Talos tops would be great enhancements. If you considered turning the line upside down, shaking everything out and starting over, I and many more people would have tons of suggestions may of which I'm sure include keeping a lot of current items.

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