My latest contribution to the thread. Not exactly practical in my AO or done according to the "Book of Pat" but considering my last go to rimfire was a satin stainless over laminate 597 I am sure the tree rats won't notice. Big Grin





__________________________ Those kids need some fucking mentors. The beating stops when the bleeding stops. How fucking hard is that?-DZ Folk don't like the Bible until its time wipe every bad guy from the face of the Earth, and suddenly, its The Playbook. -Duke

Following are some photos of my first attempt at painting a rifle. The first two photos were taken in the shade and are darker than they appear in person. You can see the difference in the third (comparison) photo.







I'm trying to locate a good spot for an outdoor shot when I get the free time.

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

Here are the photos I promised from outdoors:

W/Black AR in the Brush:


From a distance:



By itself:


From a distance:


On the ground:


Distance:


Against a tree:


Distance:


In a creekbed:




Please let me know what you guys think, what I can improve upon on the pattern, whether the photos are too close to show effectiveness, etc.

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb



This is a good pic to illustrate my point. While the painted rifle is much less visible than the black, the outline is still visible because over distance, the pattern fades into a uniform color and straight lines re-emerge. The handguard is a regular shape and the receivers and magazine form another rectangular shape. The pistol grip and rear of the receivers is indistinct and the buttstock fades too. But the tube portion looks tubular. The answer is to make the delineations between light and dark more apparent, and there should be a greater contrast.


In this closer view, you see the differences in color, but they don't camouflage the rifle, you're too close. This highlights the difficult in creating an effective pattern. At the close distances you are observing when painting, no pattern will obscure the weapon. You're too close. But instinct or something makes you want to do subtle shade differences.

If you look at a wild animal, the differences in color of coat or feathers are pretty significant and abrupt. At closer distances, their camo is ineffective and in some cases, can actually draw attention to the animal. But add some distance and especially, even a minimal amount of vegetation to break up the outline, and even a large animal can virtually disappear.

It's a darn good effort and better than some I've done, so I'm not slamming. I'm just using your pics to illustrate a point.

Don't try a short range camo pattern. Don't think your pattern, whatever it is, will be effective when moving. Plan your pattern to be effective at medium to long distances.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Thanks for the critique Dorsai.

Now a question for you, if you don't mind.You mention that "the answer is to make the delineations between light and dark more apparent", would you say it is a good idea to use light colors only in conjuction with dark? For example, in this case I used Krylon khaki, brown, and green. Should I cut out green and stick to the contrast of brown and khaki colors?

Your help is truly appreciated.

S/F,
Dan

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

In my opinion, keep the green. Take a look at your more distant shot and look at the colors that are present and their contrast. It looks like you're in Arizona. The problem with any pattern is that the terrain colors change with the seasons. At least in the SW, we usually have a choice of brown and green, vs. Brown and less green. The next one I paint will have large patches of green and sand tan. The borders will be jagged, i.e. avoiding linear or perpendicular straight lines and regular patterns. Then I intend to overlay some irregular stick patterns in darker brown and a lighter tan. The idea is to create more of a 3D stick and shadow effect.

Take a look at your straight line areas such as handgards, stock tubes, magazines, etc. and alternate colors to break up the straight line.

Test the pattern by putting it out at a distance rather than making your judgments up close. It should be rather bold at arm's length. While typing this, I thought of the splinter patterns on ships during WW1 and WWII. I don't recall seeing any pictures of them at a longer distance, but up close they just looked like a very distinctive, bold paint job. But at distance, I'm sure they made it more difficult to calculate range, size, class, etc. As radar became the norm of course, Naval camouflage became relatively obsolete.





-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Roger, got it. Thanks for taking the time to respond with your insight. Next time I head out to the desert (yep, AZ) I will observe from a farther distance.

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

I think it is important to remember that when we are painting a rifle we are painting THAT rifle and not trying to come up with a universal pattern that can be printed on fabric, cut arbitrarily, and then sewn into a uniform.

E.g. Dorsai's points about pleaforwar's rifle. That is what THAT rifle needs.

It seems like we should be able to spray a rifle to be better camouflaged than an as-issued uniform.

Cook

"The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards." — William Francis Butler "play him off, keyboard cat."

Okay, please forgive me Dorsai, I'm a hard-headed sonofabitch at times, but upon reflection there's some things I'm just not grasping.

I get how breaking up the shape of the rifle is a good way to conceal a rifle at a distance, but what about the fact that I don't have a similar pattern as clothing? Also, you mention that effective camo is good at medium to long distances. What kind of figures are we talking about? 500+ meters?

Another thing I noticed is that the patterns you have shown are either from a wars past or used in a naval environment. Why don't we use similar patterns today on vehicles and uniforms in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other arid environments? Do you consider multicam to be a pattern that achieves the results you expect?

Also, you have mentioned animals that use that type of camo, tigers, leopards,etc. I thought about that, and I can't think of too many animals in my portion of the country that utilizes this type of camouflage. Gila monsters, coral snakes (although their pattern may be to warn rather than camouflage) and bobcats are the only ones I can think of. Our big cat is a simple golden-brown. Same for coyotes, javelina, muleys, bighorn, etc.

And finally, I try to compare the pattern/color combo I use with other rifles I see here and in life. I've seen a lot of variances in colors, contrast, and patterns... but I haven't seen anything that really compares to the examples of naval vessels you provided. Do you mind pointing me in the direction to where I can find it?

Again, my apologies if I am venturing out of my lane. All I am trying to do is learn the best way to camouflage my rifles. Thanks again.

S/F,
Dan

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

Dan,
There are different ways to camouflage something. You can make it look like something else. I'm sure you've seen the nature shows with insects that look like leaves. An onpoint example is that Glock based SMG by Magpul that folds up into something like a laptop.

You can try to match background colors and patterns so it fades into the surroundings. That's doable, but as soon as you move to a different background, it doesn't work. These two camouflage techniques work best with small objects, which is why you see it with insects, lizards, small birds, etc.

The technique that we see most often and is most effective for our size, is to break up the outline so that there isn't a recognizable shape. It can work very well, but like all camo efforts, it doesn't work when you're moving, or when you're too close.

Spots are frequently used by animals that live and operate in forests where you get a dappling effect of light and shadow. On larger animal patterns, you frequently see them with a coat that is mainly one color, usually darker on top, and a fairly abrupt color shift to a lighter color underneath. It is also common to see a color change on the head or the hind quarters. Be careful here though and differentiate camo from patterns designed to attract attention for mating purposes.

We've been struggling to develop good camo patterns for centuries and in some cases, we've done pretty good. Some of the German patterns during WWII were very good.

Getting back to us. You can paint a weapon with the same pattern as your uniform, and in some cases, that can work well. Assuming you start with a good pattern. The latest technology is pretty good at extending the range where camo is effective, i.e. closer to the observer. The way it is done is with fractal patterns. Small patterns that work at closer distances merge into larger patterns that are effective at greater ranges. These are devised by computers and are not that easy for us to duplicate. And there is a crucial difference between a weapon and your uniform. The human body is organic and doesn't have straight lines. Our shape isn't straight and it changes depending on posture. In addition to exposed, shiny faces, necks and hands, the next biggest give away to a camouflaged human are straight lines created by belts and gear. Those draw the eye as unnatural. Same thing as a regular rounded shape to a helmet. The answer to the helmet has been to add sticks, leaves, garnish, etc to break up the outline, or like the Israelis have done, the "mitznefet".



Getting back to the weapon. If you paint it with your uniform pattern, essentially you are attempting to make it blend with you. That isn't a totally bad thing, but when you aren't the background, then it doesn't work as well, plus it is difficult to do the patterns free style. You generally would need to buy a commercial pattern and use an airbrush. Like I said, we are an irregular shape. Our shape can change naturally, but our camouflage also seeks to disguise the recognizable outline. And that is the problem with a small camouflage pattern and a weapon. As you experienced, it is easy to keep recognizable straight lines that draw the eye. Once the observe is concentrating on you, then more details pop out and there is recognition.

Which brings us back to my original postings, i.e. break up the outline. Depending on the background and the skill with which you applied the camouflage, it isn't unreasonable that it could be difficult to see at 20 yds. The biggest give away at the closer ranges are shadows. Shadows are dark and in bright sunlight, they approach black. Black isn't natural, so it can draw the eye, especially when the shadow looks like the outline of something you're looking for, i.e. a man...or a weapon.

As you increase the distance, say 50-100yds, then a well camouflaged weapon becomes almost impossible to see. Again, size matters. A person is a lot larger than a rifle and so is much easier to discern at the same distance. Also keep in mind, it is damn near impossible to camouflage something if it is out in the open. Camo patterns on tanks or armored vehicles don't do much when they are in the open, but they do help to confuse the outline when they are mixed in with trees or mixed terrain features.

The pictures of the ships were to illustrate a point. Patterns are sized appropriately for the object to be disguised, and the range at which it is possible for a disguise to be effective. A ship at sea doesn't have anything it can hide behind. But beyond a certain distance, breaking waves, fog, etc can combine with the camo pattern to confuse recognition of what it is exactly, range, direction of movement, etc. And like I said, it was only effective before radar.

And here are some picture of some of the animals you mentioned. They aren't as monochrome as you think.









-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Mark,
Thanks for going into such detail with your response. It definitely helps me grasp this concept. I didn't consider other environments when using my paint scheme.

Next time around I will use a method that utilizes more contrast and an angular approach. I'll make sure to provide stencils and colors before painting next time to get your input.

Thanks again.

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

I started off and painted my 10/22 a while back (it sucked) and have since progressed to now my second AR paint job. Thanks to you on this thread for the pointers and tips. This paint job was finished approximately two months ago.
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate Dorsai. Good stuff.

I use krylon "camo" paint as it seems to dry quickly and not get affected by different plastics and such. It also is a very dull or flat finish when it dries, so no shine to it and it is reasonably durable.

The first pic is the gun mostly if not all the way taped off as a reference pic.


Next I started with a base coat of "khaki," on the entire gun.


Then I placed local sagebrush branches, broken pieces of glass bottles, rocks, little bark/wood chunks and leaves on the gun to provide my "pattern" and hit it with Krylon's "olive." The pic doesn't really do the contrasting colors justice as the concrete really skews it.


A pic in the local AO for reference. Ignore the grey blobs. Wink


That's it. Just two colors for me. Works well in my AO. Critiques are welcome.
Good job Idaho Corsair. First, the pattern didn't draw my eye. I started searching around the pic to see it and when I got to the bush, then it was visible, but only because I was looking for a rifle.

It's really tough to get a good color match for that sand and brush color, but you've got enough contrast between the green and the sand to break up the outlines. The distance is pretty close. Double or triple it and I don't know that it would be visible against the brush. Shadows would probably bring it out on the ground, but maybe not.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by bourneshooter:
Who ever said that grey didn't conceal things?

Oh wait it was the rifle you painted. It blends in very well in that picture.


Actually, FWIW, I really like grey camo. Two of my favorite camos for hunting around here are grey; natural gear and outfitter camo. It works rather well and those that hunt with say it blends very well. But to go along with Dorsia, stationary is one thing, movement messes things up. They have a difficult time spotting me if I'm stationary (and not silhouetted, that's another key) but movement draws attention and you and you're equipment will stand out.

__________________________

"Sarcasm is Anger's first cousin"

"There are few of life's problems that cannot be solved with the proper application of a high explosive projectile."

I am really liking apparel in shades of grey, more and more. For those of us who operate -er...caffienate in an urban environment, greys are nice. But here in SE Texas, step across the street from FOB Starbucks, and it could open brush country. Round Rock LF'ers really opened my eyes to the change in topography; one side of the street is the nice HEB/WalMart/etc., and across the street could be open country with wild pigs. (A little extreme, but you get my point.)

Flat khaki with mistings of flat olive green in irregular patterns is a winner.
------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
i decided to try the dusting technique Pat discussed in his thread.
It's a little hard to tell do to the flash but the OD dusting took the brightness out of the khaki and helped to blend it all together.

______________________________ "I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for reducing and one for inducing."

Gents,
I present round two of my attempt to paint an effective pattern on a rifle.

Thanks to the contribution of Idaho Corsair and Dorsai, I decided to use the same tan/green combo and boot brown all together. Instead of using strands of grass I used large leaves to create a pattern.

Base coat:


Stencil:


After:


In the environment:








I originally attempted to paint a pattern with angles similar to the photos Dorsai provided, but alas my skill was not up to par for that type of detail. I fear that the stripes may end up being to repetitive, but I feel that I nailed the contrast part. Thoughts are always welcome and thanks ahead of time for your input.

Cheers,
Dan

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

Excellent job. The longest distance pic is what, 40-50ft? The contrast and the pattern don't disappear, though they come close, but they very effectively conceal the fact that it's a rifle. The visual cues are gone.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

The farthest distance was around fifty feet. Thanks again Mark for all of your input on this subject.

"Sure, I fought, I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."- Ty Cobb

Good job pfw. I didn't think the big blocks of paint would conceal well, but I had to do some hunting to find the gun in the first pic.

---------- I pray that my son, when he is 60, and your son, when he is 60...will live in a world from which the great ugliness that has scarred our century has passed. Enjoying their freedoms, they will be grateful that, at the threatened nightfall, the blood of their fathers ran strong. ----------

These are the only pictures I have of my most recent paint job IAW Pat and Stephens guides to MC and painting a rifle. I did some reseach on here as well as other places to figure out just what made MC so great at breaking up outlines and dissapearing. This paint job worked out quite nicely in my opinion... some things I may change, but overall I'm very pleased with it!

I painted a base coat of Tan, then Patches of light brown, then Leaf/Geometric shapes I cut out of OD/Ranger Green, then the same cutouts of Dark Brown, and Light Tan to lighten up any dark spots. To do it over again I'd make more small stencils, my stencils tended to be a bit larger than I wanted.

The first rifle is my current go to gun. It is a 16" Noveske Ligth RECCE VTAC setup, with a 13" VTAC forend, Troy BUIS, Trijicon 1-4X ACCUPOINT optic, a Surefire 951, Noveske Lower with a Palmetto Armory LPK, Buffer kit, a VLTOR Clubfoot stock and a VTAC Padded Sling. This rifle is new to me (only had it since Oct and been finishing it up peice by peice), but it has become my favorite rifle I've owned thus far!

Her all posed by the brick wall!


Taped up still...


My S&W MP-15-22 paintjob...

Base coat of tan.


Finished Product against a brick wall.


Against a wooden fence once finished.


A shot of it in the woods near dark.

Shoot, Move, and Communicate!

Back in the 1970s, 1980s guys out of South Africa and Rhodesia were saying you needed 4"=6" wide irregular colored bands across the length of the rifle.
They said that if you painted too small a pattern at 50 yards it looked like a gun.

I suppose the above mentioned fractals combine near and far camo.

It seems the best camo jobs I have seen do irregular wide bands/splotches with color variation within the bigger splotches to work better up close.
markfall,
This isn't a thread to just post your pretty painted rifle. You're new here, so I won't slam you too hard, but the purpose of camouflage is to hide, disguise, alter, distort, etc. the appearance so that it is not readily recognizable. Therefore, it is determined largely by the environment in which it is to be used. In what environment in West Virginia would that camo be effective? How did you intend to use it? Have you tried it in your environment and how did it work?

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai,
The vast majority of the shooting done with this rifle is done recreationally by me at the range. In that regard, no, its not much use. Come to WV sometime and go for a little walk around in the winter/fall season. You will see how effective it is in dry brush. It works quite well there. I’ll see if I can get some pics up tomorrow.

When not being used by myself, it is used by my father in Wyoming to take prairie dogs and coyotes. He requested something in a brown/tan pattern to break it up a bit and I was happy to oblige him.

Between the two locations I believe I have a good, solid pattern.

Oh, and I wanted to paint it.

I apologize for not posting that relevant info. I'm still getting used to this place.
Just some internet guy.
Good enough.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by markfall:
Dorsai,
The vast majority of the shooting done with this rifle is done recreationally by me at the range. In that regard, no, its not much use. Come to WV sometime and go for a little walk around in the winter/fall season. You will see how effective it is in dry brush. It works quite well there. I’ll see if I can get some pics up tomorrow.

When not being used by myself, it is used by my father in Wyoming to take prairie dogs and coyotes. He requested something in a brown/tan pattern to break it up a bit and I was happy to oblige him.

Between the two locations I believe I have a good, solid pattern.

Oh, and I wanted to paint it.

I apologize for not posting that relevant info. I'm still getting used to this place.


If you get a chance I'd like to see a picture of the rifle in its intended environment.

I'm also curious how well you find that paint to hold up.

Cook

"The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards." — William Francis Butler "play him off, keyboard cat."

gr8Cook,

The paint tends to hold on a bit harder than regular old krylon, so im pretty happy with it. its not as powdery or flaky. As an added plus, I can strip it off in no time if its time to change it.

I'm still trying to get the hang of reducing pics in size, so bare with me...

Just some internet guy.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:


On a serious note, why did you not paint the bbl?


'Cos the paint will burn off! So says the US Military.

KBK

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

Location Cape Town, South Africa

 

Mr. Rogers,

This is my first painted firearm and I wasn't sure how it would hold up. The barrel is actually painted though! Its painted with Black high temp grill paint. The barrel is stainless and I figured I'd just try it like this for now.
Just some internet guy.
quote:
Originally posted by Kayback:
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:


On a serious note, why did you not paint the bbl?


'Cos the paint will burn off! So says the US Military.

KBK


Yup, they say that. I have been painting my guNs going back a deacade or more, and i shoot a few rounds- and haven't burned anything off the bbl yet.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
quote:
Originally posted by Kayback:
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:


On a serious note, why did you not paint the bbl?


'Cos the paint will burn off! So says the US Military.

KBK


Yup, they say that. I have been painting my gus going back a deacade or more, and i shoot a few rounds- and haven't burned anything off the bbl yet.


How does Gus feel about that?

Well, the more you know.....
I'l probably paint the bbl later this week then.
Just some internet guy.
quote:
Originally posted by markfall:
Mr. Rogers,

This is my first painted firearm and I wasn't sure how it would hold up. The barrel is actually painted though! Its painted with Black high temp grill paint. The barrel is stainless and I figured I'd just try it like this for now.


First off- Mr Rogers was my Dad- My name is Pat.

Second- Dude- why do you want us to *Bare* with you??
You want us to be naked with you??

Dude...Rule 4 Violation.

As you are apparently missing the boat here, the tem- and correct spelling- is "BEAR with me"

Hopefully, this is what you meant....


Lastly, black is a target indicator. You spent a lot of time painting the gun, optic- even that Rube Goldberg sling monstrosity- but left the bbl and magazine black.

Yup- i know this is the first time. But i miss why that meant you had to paint the bbl TIB instead of blending it in with the rest of the rifle...

Likewise the mags. Even if you paint it a solid FDE or FG, it will reduce the contrast.

Nice job BTW.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
quote:
Originally posted by markfall:
Mr. Rogers,

This is my first painted firearm and I wasn't sure how it would hold up. The barrel is actually painted though! Its painted with Black high temp grill paint. The barrel is stainless and I figured I'd just try it like this for now.


First off- Mr Rogers was my Dad- My name is Pat.

Second- Dude- why do you want us to *Bare* with you??
You want us to be naked with you??

Dude...Rule 4 Violation.

As you are apparently missing the boat here, the tem- and correct spelling- is "BEAR with me"

Hopefully, this is what you meant....


Lastly, black is a target indicator. You spent a lot of time painting the gun, optic- even that Rube Goldberg sling monstrosity- but left the bbl and magazine black.

Yup- i know this is the first time. But i miss why that meant you had to paint the bbl TIB instead of blending it in with the rest of the rifle...

Likewise the mags. Even if you paint it a solid FDE or FG, it will reduce the contrast.

Nice job BTW.


Like I said, I had no knowledge of the staying power of paint on a hot bbl, So I went ahead and painted something flatter than brilliant stainless steel. That was black grill paint

I've got a couple FDE 20 rounders on order. I've tried to paint a pmag before but had less than good results with paint adhesion. Must have been something in the polymer.

The "sling abomination" is a design that works for me. I use it for support and transportation. I'm not taking down houses anymore.
Just some internet guy.

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