So does this mean the new "SAW" will be 6.8?

http://soldiersystems DOT net/2019/09/06/us-army-selects-true-velocity-composite-cased-ammunition-next-generation-squad-weapon/

GARLAND, TX – True Velocity composite-cased ammunition has been selected for the U.S. Army’s Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) modernization program. True Velocity’s 6.8mm composite-cased cartridge was submitted as part of an overall NGSW weapon system in partnership with General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems and firearm manufacturer Beretta Defense Technologies.

True Velocity’s proprietary 6.8mm case design will provide end users with significant logistical and operational advantages over traditional brass-cased ammunition, including substantially increased effective range and muzzle energy, drastic reduction in cartridge weight and enhanced accuracy. The combination of True Velocity’s ammunition with the General Dynamics OTS weapon submission results in a state-of-the-art weapon system capable of long-range lethality, short recoil impulse, significant ballistic improvements and enhanced operational effectiveness for the soldier.

“True Velocity’s 6.8mm composite case design produces a level of performance, consistency and efficiency never before seen in small arms ammunition,” said Chris Tedford, president and chief operating officer for True Velocity. “Combining True Velocity’s innovation and technology with the expertise of General Dynamics OTS and Beretta results in a weapon system solution that exceeds NGSW requirements and provides the U.S. Army with a definitive edge on the field of battle.”

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

Original Post

That's interesting, considering Sig recently announced that they were selected, in what turned out to be some poetic licence by their PR department, when in actual fact, they were only shortlisted.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

MWL posted:

That's interesting, considering Sig recently announced that they were selected, in what turned out to be some poetic licence by their PR department, when in actual fact, they were only shortlisted.

Regards.

Mark

Shaping the story. Get people believing the story before its real.  

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

MWL posted:

That's interesting, considering Sig recently announced that they were selected, in what turned out to be some poetic licence by their PR department, when in actual fact, they were only shortlisted.

Regards.

Mark

Its a good way to bump shares/parent company shares a little higher with no real effort.

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

 

(Sigh) I resist saying anything about these trials but, poor judgement gets the better of me again.

In my lifetime I cannot recall a single component of any of those programs that was a one-step success from the start; not ammo, not  weapon, much less a combination of the two.

I am all in favor of a small arms program that is going to take advantage of a ballistically improved cartridge, with weight savings, and a weapon designed optimally around said round. 

I’m just in doubt that this is now “it” simply because the manufacturer has declared it.

We’re all very interested in what it eventually is going to be. Perhaps in a few years we’ll know what the first failures are going to look like.

Then, real progress can start.

I've put hands-on this composite-cased cartridge recently, IF it actually makes it through the process, it'll be  a game changer for weight savings. It was about 1/3 the weight of a standard brass casing.  Like anything else in the US Army Small Arms development world though, I expect it to get screwed up in the next year or so.

------ "I'll bleed on the flag to keep the stripes red"-------

I'm no expert. But I get the weight savings.  I can also conceptualize the higher case pressure (maybe a composite case with a redesigned neck, deeper seated projectile,  right primer, increased propellant, etc. can tolerate greater pressure). However I'm having a little trouble translating how higher muzzle velocity will lead to increased accuracy.  If you have a hotter round, won't it be harder to stay on target?

_______________________________________________________
"Idque apud imperitos humanitas vocabatur, cum pars servitutis esset"         

 

"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem"

 

Joined: 9/5/2011 Location: The Former Empire State, now The State of Anarchy

If by that you mean higher MV will produce more recoil energy experienced by the shooter, then with all other things equal, then yes it will be a harder weapon for most minimally trained shooters to master.

The advantage of higher MV will be more hits by reducing range and wind uncertainty.

The beast that’s being touted will push a 120 - 140gr projectiles to 3400 FPS + meaning a barrel life of less than 2000 rounds. Heat is the enemy of throats and barrels. There isn’t magic unicorn metallurgy that’s going to alleviate that obstacle.

We’re going to continue to upgrade and produce the M4 FOW for quite a while yet, but the things they’re trying to develop will lead somewhere eventually.

 

 

Photo of the cartridge: 

Pellets in the background are plastic pellets, presumably the actual ones they mold it out of. White makes me worry a tiny tidge about UV getting to the powder, about ESD, and so on so I'd bet aside from not having white ammo out in the notional feed trays, they change color in the end from some additive or other. 

Straight walled? Hmm. 

 

Dux posted:

...I'm having a little trouble translating how higher muzzle velocity will lead to increased accuracy.  If you have a hotter round, won't it be harder to stay on target?

I think just the flatter shooting means increased point blank zone, so range estimation (notoriously unreliable) becomes moot. Of course as you say, you damned well better hit the first time as that followup ain't going to be very fast. 

 

Desert01 posted:

Just read the GD/Beretta submission is based on the ARX-200...How have the ARX based rifles been holding up?

Not a lot in the US so not unusual no one here knows. I have heard of no issues in service or even from the periodic civilian torture tests. I really believe from product dev timelines and variants shown of over the years the Italians took their time to do trials, refine the design. 

They already have an updated variant with only minor changes (e.g. cooling slots in the handguard), have some solid overseas sales lined up (whole armies, local production lines...) and are about to start issuing a 7.62x51 version (based on needs for a heavy gun from A'stan deployments) so it seems they are all on board with adjusting the mechanism for multiple cartridges anyway. 

The outer shell is very specific to the Italian Army. Weird sling loops and grenade attachment points and stuff; not sure I'd want one for e.g. police in the US. I expect therefore the GD collab one looks not especially like a 160, in order to meet the program needs for the US mil. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Shoobe,

The casing that we had our hands on was not white at all - more of a dark gun metal grey / almost black. The other interesting aspect that I'm not seeing presented here, was that some of the casings had the round fully immersed into the casing - meaning the ogive was not past the top rim of the casing (meplat was at the cartridge casing rim).

------ "I'll bleed on the flag to keep the stripes red"-------

1SG DB posted:

Shoobe,

The casing that we had our hands on was not white at all - more of a dark gun metal grey / almost black. The other interesting aspect that I'm not seeing presented here, was that some of the casings had the round fully immersed into the casing - meaning the ogive was not past the top rim of the casing (meplat was at the cartridge casing rim).

For color: what I'd expect actually. But different config... it was this company? We know there's multiple configurations being tested including fully telescoped, from multiple companies. Hmm... 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

shoobe01 posted:

Photo of the cartridge: 

 

Pellets in the background are plastic pellets, presumably the actual ones they mold it out of. White makes me worry a tiny tidge about UV getting to the powder, about ESD, and so on so I'd bet aside from not having white ammo out in the notional feed trays, they change color in the end from some additive or other. 

Straight walled? Hmm. 

Training dummy colour?

True Velocity is making some decent polymer cased ammunition that is in use by "some people" with excellent results. There are a couple of other polymer cased options out there, but TV is the front runner from my limited experience so far. 

The article is a press release, much like the Sig press release. Whichever gun wins the competition will bring the ammunition with it. This is not uncommon in larger weapons system acquisitions. The only reason the M230 is on an AH-64 is that's what the OEM chose. The other guns available were far better, but the OEM's those other gun manufacturers teamed with didn't build the best helicopter. This may be a case of better ammunition being available, but the better gun won, or vice-versa. 

GD-OTS seems to have their stuff together with their offering, so we'll see where this goes. 

Not a clue what this program is doing, but has anyone done driving bands/sleeves on small calibers? I guess sabots yes, but wonder if you could keep suitable accuracy etc and use a plastic (or metal optimized for lubricity) to engage rifling, avoid excess barrel wear. 

The AAI ACR was running flechettes at somewhere over 4600 fps so... maybe? But I seem to recall sabot stripping was not a solid science so accuracy was impacted by these ammo submissions. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Potentially a barrel life issue, but are we comparing apples with apples here?

Are we talking about stainless button rifled barrels that need to hold 1/2 MOA, and say, CHF double chrome lined or nitrided barrels that only need to hold 2 to 4 MOA?

There is of course also the issue of rates of fire to consider though.

Maybe they will issue a QC barrel with each ammo can?

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

It seems like something that will cost a lot of money and never come to fruition.  I just hope that the guns and ammo are thoroughly and extensively tested by a good number of actual troops in a variety of environments and it proves to be at least as reliable and durable as the weapons it is going to replace before they even consider replacing them.

shoobe01 posted:

Not a clue what this program is doing, but has anyone done driving bands/sleeves on small calibers? I guess sabots yes, but wonder if you could keep suitable accuracy etc and use a plastic (or metal optimized for lubricity) to engage rifling, avoid excess barrel wear. 

The AAI ACR was running flechettes at somewhere over 4600 fps so... maybe? But I seem to recall sabot stripping was not a solid science so accuracy was impacted by these ammo submissions. 

Yes...but the AAI & SA entrants did not engage targets with single rounds: SALVO was about engaging with a burst of projectiles.

Hence the SPIW 60 rnd magazines & very high burst rate?

I really don’t get this. I have yet to see the results of this ammo in a sustained fire test. We all know polymer melts at high temps. Wouldn’t the extractor rip away the rim if the case heats and gets stuck?
The Jordanians have been taking advantage of the 6.8SPC for years now in actual combat. I have felt and still feel, the 6.8SPC should have been issued. It is now a proven round and does everything necessary from barrel lengths down to 12”. 

gdonley308 posted:

The Jordanians have been taking advantage of the 6.8SPC for years nowin actual combat. I have felt and still feel, the 6.8SPC should have been issued. It is now a proven round and does everything necessary from barrel lengths down to 12”. 

How so?  Who have they shot with it?  You've got eyewitness after-action reports?

Several countries have bought small batches (including the Saudis).  I'd be interested to see some documentation.

Arabs all over the Middle East have shot tens of thousands of people with AKs as well.  The Chinese have a 5.8 mm.   Not sure whether either is significant or not.

gdonley308 posted:

I really don’t get this. I have yet to see the results of this ammo in a sustained fire test. We all know polymer melts at high temps. Wouldn’t the extractor rip away the rim if the case heats and gets stuck?
The Jordanians have been taking advantage of the 6.8SPC for years now in actual combat. I have felt and still feel, the 6.8SPC should have been issued. It is now a proven round and does everything necessary from barrel lengths down to 12”. 

I have yet to see a 6.8SPC loading that meets the armor defeat specs that is being pursued in this particular hunt- and I've been shooting and reloading 6.8SPC since the early/mid 2000s. Can you show me a SAAMI spec loading for 6.8SPC that crosses the 3400fps barrier with 100gr or heavier FMJ or steel core projectile?

------------------------------------- "A True Warrior knows neither Left or Right"  Looking for a doc who can fix my allergies.. Stupid People and IED's...

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