USSOCOM Adopts 6.5 CM

http://soldiersystems.net/2018...socom-adopts-6-5-cm/

I know nothing about Precision anything . So I not going to speak about it .Just wanted to get the word here .

 

Last Spring, USSOCOM undertook a study of 6.5 family cartridges to determine a path forward for Precision Intermediate Caliber Ammunition. Over the last year, USASOC, the primary driver of this initiative, narrowed it down to 260 Remington and 6.5 Creemoor. Testing indicated that the two calibers performed very closely.

Last month, the command conducted a reliability test, using two incumbent weapons, currently in US service; the FN SCAR Heavy and KAC M110. Two weapons of each type were used, one was in 260 Remington and the other in 6.5 CM. What they found is that both weapons performed just as well and were just as reliable in either caliber.

As both cartridges were similarly accurate and reliable, the determining factor for selection of 6.5 CM would end up being trade space. The prevailing attitude is that there was more room with the 6.5 CM to further develop projectiles and loads.

I don’t expect a major announcement, or any fanfare with this decision. Instead, you’ll begin to see small movements toward configuring weapons to utilize this round.

At the USASOC Sniper Competition, there were several weapons in 6.5 CM. Yesterday, we gave a little tease on Instagram of a Knight’s Armament Co M110 in 6.5 CM.

98AD22B9-E4C0-4BF0-B28D-D87C0ED9375B

Today, I fired a FN Mk20 in 6.5 CM which was configured as a demonstrator for new features, such as a non-reciprocating charging handle and AR-style stock. Shooting a SCAR Heavy is like taming a beast, but with 6.5 CM, the recoil impulse was negligible.

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Briefings last year indicated that SOCOM was interested in looking at an intermediate cartridge family gas gun and light machine gun. However, the lay Of the land is a little different now. I do not expect a full and open competition for a new car being in 6.5 CM. Rather, I expect them to modify the 7.62 rifles they already own. Additionally, there has been no recent talk of looking at a light machine gun in that caliber.

"Be an example to your men, in your duty and in private life. Never spare yourself, and let the troops see that you don't in your endurance of fatigue and privation. Always be tactful and well-mannered and teach your subordinates to do the same. Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." - Field Marshall Erwin Rommel

 

Joined: 12/24/04    LOCATION : Moments away from BFG and DD

Original Post

Annnnnnnnd we're off!  If 6.5CM is popular now, ho lee shit the sky's the limit.

Just wondering about this statement;

As both cartridges were similarly accurate and reliable, the determining factor for selection of 6.5 CM would end up being trade space. The prevailing attitude is that there was more room with the 6.5 CM to further develop projectiles and loads.

Unless I am missing something....which I guarantee I am....the .260 has a wee bit more case capacity and uses the same bullets, so what gives?

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

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 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

6.5 will give the advantage of less math, easier hits, more rounds-per-pound. 

Where SOCOM will end up paying more is for anything besides precision copper-and-lead projos.  Surely Lapua, NAMMO, and Bofors or some other Scandinavian outfits can (and may) cover AP, tracer, etc.

pointblank4445 posted:

Yes, the 260 has slightly more case capacity but the bullets must be seated deeper in the case to fit into mags.  COAL is an issue with 260 fitting in mags with heavier/longer bullets.  Since we're talking at most,  2.875" I think for SR mags...CM literally leaves more room to play with.

Well, there you go.  I learn something here every day.  Thank you.

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IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

If this starts working for them, this could lead to a whole different family of weapons, both personal and crew-served. Frankly, it seems like this move would be better for a belt-fed weapon except for one glaring detail - barrel life. Barrel life for these things is much shorter than for .308s.  But the same advantages that make it a good rifle cartridge seem like they would directly translate to a MG. I think the .260 would fit right into existing disintegrating links, but I don't know if the 6.5CM would.  

I'll be interested in seeing how this new round (whatever they end up on) works through barriers and in meat.  I'm very interested in this.

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Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

Hmm actually this is kind of interesting.

A SCAR heavy in 6.5 creedmoor is kind of like a updated 21st century version of the EM-2 or the prototype .280 British FALs from the 1950s.


Personally I think this is very exciting, I think a round like 6.5 creedmoor or 6.5 grendel or .264 USA really makes sense today and we might even see a revival of sorts of the battle rifle. 

With modern variable power optics and barrel manufacturing and the training professional armies of today a riflemen can actually exploit a longer ranged cartridge where the conscript armies of WW2 and the cold war could not. 

  Combine that with not having to reduce recoil for full auto fire on shoulder weapons, a polymer or hybrid casing to bring down ammo weight, and having to rely on small arms more at range with the restrictive rules of engagement in modern conflicts and honest to goodness a battle rifle suddenly becomes viable.  If ammo polymer cased ammo becomes a thing, I will most def run whatever 6.5 Creedmoor Iteration of the SR-25 that SOCOM runs as my primary rifle 

Funny how we came full circle to the old battle rifle concept and what is old is new

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

Think about the kind of combat we are in - militaries have long held that small arms engagements typically happen within 500 meters. We develop a rifle and cartridge that excels at these ranges, and the enemy we are fighting knows it. So to avoid dying themselves, they try to engage from further out with heavier calibers, then scoot before we can bring combined arms down on their heads. So now we push for heavier calibers, pressing more .308 into service as a stopgap.

The past 100 years of military ammo development has been trying to dial in the perfect infantry caliber. We've been bouncing around between 5 and 8mm for that entire time, and the reason being the needs of the military change. 30-06 was pretty close to optimal for the military's needs at it's adoption, as was 5.56.

Learn how to talk and how to fight, if you can't do one you'll be doing a lot of the other.

MasterChef posted:

Think about the kind of combat we are in - militaries have long held that small arms engagements typically happen within 500 meters. We develop a rifle and cartridge that excels at these ranges, and the enemy we are fighting knows it. So to avoid dying themselves, they try to engage from further out with heavier calibers, then scoot before we can bring combined arms down on their heads. So now we push for heavier calibers, pressing more .308 into service as a stopgap.

The past 100 years of military ammo development has been trying to dial in the perfect infantry caliber. We've been bouncing around between 5 and 8mm for that entire time, and the reason being the needs of the military change. 30-06 was pretty close to optimal for the military's needs at it's adoption, as was 5.56.

Well that's the thing, through technology we can develop rounds that have longer range without as much weight and less recoil.


With a polymer case and long aerodynamic bullet with an air pocket so it tumbles like 7n6 5.45 you can get a round that can have the downrange effect and the same or better trajectory of say .30-06 m2 ball with less material, weight, and recoil

I mean, the whole 6-7mm caliber is something that has been around forever, like 6.5swede, and even Federov in like the early 1900s was dicking around with something that we would see as similar to 6.5 creed.  Its really kind of a surprise .30 caliber bullets have stuck around so long with the inefficiency of a .30 caliber bullet aerodynamically 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...dge-fedorov-avtomat/

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

Low_Speed_Notper8or posted:
MasterChef posted:

 



I mean, the whole 6-7mm caliber is something that has been around forever, like 6.5swede, and even Federov in like the early 1900s was dicking around with something that we would see as similar to 6.5 creed.  Its really kind of a surprise .30 caliber bullets have stuck around so long with the inefficiency of a .30 caliber bullet aerodynamically 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...dge-fedorov-avtomat/

Friend had a metric FAL in 7x49mm dating back to the late 50's.  Very different to shoot from a 7.62x51mm.

As much as I like the gear choices the military has been making, I really wish more time, money, and energy was spent on training personnel. I digress. Glad they went with this over the 260 SOCOM.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

I’m wondering if this is the death warrant for the .260 Remington on a commercial level. I’m sure there will still be those involved in long range competition that are already heavily invested in it so that it wont die out completely. 

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MOJONIXON posted:

I’m wondering if this is the death warrant for the .260 Remington on a commercial level. I’m sure there will still be those involved in long range competition that are already heavily invested in it so that it wont die out completely. 

I wondered that myself in that was this the big "Key Mod v. MLok" reveal that would set one to become the commercial favorite?  I don't think we'll see much change as there weren't that many commercial places where 260 was offered that 6.5 CM wasn't; however, the reverse is a different story.  

What I do think this means is that there will be more 6.5CM commercial semi auto stuff (SCAR, KAC, Larue...maybe even HK).   The KAC 22" 6.5 CM from SHOT may have been a clue.  

pointblank4445 posted:

I see that SSD has pinned the 6.5CM story to the top.  Thank goodness for that, otherwise we would have missed out on some of the wondrous commentary.  

Thank you my friend.  I am dumber for having read that.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Brock01 posted:

As much as I like the gear choices the military has been making, I really wish more time, money, and energy was spent on training personnel. I digress. Glad they went with this over the 260 SOCOM.

Well Socom is adopting 6.5 Creed, as much as the regular army and national guard etc sucks at firearms training, I think just based on the name and job the SF guys have that sorted out

Lowspeed-High Drag/Armchair General and Keyboard /k/ommando

MOJONIXON posted:

I’m wondering if this is the death warrant for the .260 Remington on a commercial level. I’m sure there will still be those involved in long range competition that are already heavily invested in it so that it wont die out completely. 

Nah. The .260 is a fringe religion, not a cartridge. There are a handful of true believers who will keep .260 on life support at their loading benches. 

Every conversation about the .260 morphs to: "But you have to reload to get the full potential out of it." Followed by: "I only pop a few primers with my reloads... I am pretty sure my pressure is within limits. Well, kinda sure. My bolt lift is only a little sticky, and case head expansion is normal."

Whatever... I don't have time or interest in reloading. I will buy the full performance drama free ammo right off the shelf in the form of 6.5 Creedmoor.

Longeye posted:
MOJONIXON posted:

I’m wondering if this is the death warrant for the .260 Remington on a commercial level. I’m sure there will still be those involved in long range competition that are already heavily invested in it so that it wont die out completely. 

Nah. The .260 is a fringe religion, not a cartridge. There are a handful of true believers who will keep .260 on life support at their loading benches. 

Eh- when I started with .260 Rem it was the 6.5 choice if you wanted to run out of AICS magazines.  Now, I'd likely go 6.5 CM.

Still, I have a rifle set up for it, 500x Lap cases, factory ammo is not an option for either 6.5 CM or .260 Rem so I have to reload: thus I'll continue with 260 rem (or 6.5x51mm for us non-imperialists).

When the barrel is worn or the cases kaput...then time to reassess.

Low_Speed_Notper8or posted:
Brock01 posted:

As much as I like the gear choices the military has been making, I really wish more time, money, and energy was spent on training personnel. I digress. Glad they went with this over the 260 SOCOM.

Well Socom is adopting 6.5 Creed, as much as the regular army and national guard etc sucks at firearms training, I think just based on the name and job the SF guys have that sorted out

Job? Maybe. Name? Not really the case. There are far more people that sit at a desk then go out on missions at SOCOM.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

exSquid posted:

I am all for having the 6.5CM option but, everything I have read indicates it doesn't like short 16" barrels.  For most applications, I prefer the shorter option.

x/S

Not with existing tech and the current logic train.  I'm currently working on how to get backed down from 24" to 20" barrel and 130gr OTM's and hold onto the benefits of the 6.5mm without resorting to solids.  

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/...ting-up-a-creedmoor/

Yeah, I don't think they're going to get much more juice out of a 16" semiauto if they're trying to sling a 147 ELD.  Cut the bullet weight back into an optimized 123-136gr round with a higher velocity and there could still be some benefit.  As others wiser than me, this would be where your "gain" twist barrels would make sense.  Start 1:9, 1:8 and have it leaving the muzzle 1:7".

 

 

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