What is Quality? (picture heavy)

If you want to know why some of this stuff is stud board and some isn't- Eggroll provided this guide.

https://primaryandsecondary.co.../09/what-is-quality/

 

12036749_10207796839097698_2707062468704793961_n

By Darin Talbot

Eglabsinfo@gmail.com

http://extremegearlabs.com/

https://www.facebook.com/extremegearlabs

What is quality? According to the American Society of Quality, quality is –

1. the characteristics of a product or service that bear on its ability to satisfy stated or implied needs;
2. a product or service free of deficiencies in“fitness for use;” or in a “conformance to requirements.”

You see the problem lies in a consuming public not knowing what really constitutes well made gear.

If you have condor gear in any color outside of multicam or ATACS AU and it was purchased between 2012-2013 then chances are it was made with us made MC and Atacs raw fabric out of Duro and Schott Performance.

That said, the geometry and methods used to construct their products are substandard at best with frequent deviations from specifications (most noticeably in PALS channel formation)

Sometimes the stitch length is as big as 4 stitches per inch on major surfaces up to 6 SPI, when your break strength is about 11lbs per stitch it does count when you start applying a warload.

Take a ruler alongside your stitches and see for yourself. .. measure the pals Webbing too, 1.5″ on center, 1″ gap in between

Rarely do you see any reinforcement to critical load bearing or contact surfaces (where material exposed to plate surfaces, or where Webbing is interfaced with platebag)… any sewn down Webbing should be finished in such a manner that there are no exposed ends to fray out and render that Webbing useless

It is stitched up just to be functionally able to act in its intended form, to hold a plate in a static form… but due to movement and the way things move in a dynamic sense, stress loads previously not present upon the sewn structures will suddenly undergo loading that will exceed stitch capacity and then pop goes the article.

Dimensionally speaking ALL pouches should fit exactly in between one or more pals channels and NOT extend beyond into another channel on either side

So is all this worth it to you? If you rationalize a 50.00 condor plate carrier as good enough, then I would submit that you need to reassess what is critical instead of getting something just because someone else is getting one too

That said, this is what I set out to compare yesterday… I bought a Condor Gunner release able PC, and a Mayflower / Velocity Scarab Light PC to compare both ends of the cost/build spectrum in terms of what 100.00 retail gets you and what 315.00 will get you.

 

First off, the Condor Gunner release able PC

04

“New with tag”

 

01

5 Stitch per inch throughout

 

02

Rear face of PC

 

03

Top half of rear face with “drag handle”
More on that later

 

05

That drag handle, a single thickness of 17337 webbing and it’s already pulling away from body face… not reinforced nor does it extend throughout the body of the pc to distribute it’s loading

 

60

Stitching to “taper” the handle.. not quite symmetric

 

06

Unreinforced joint interface… at least bartack or run multiple stitches through to keep in place

 

07

Loose thread from and unreinforced joint

 

08

Poorly prepped piece of loop with non-symmetrical stitching

 

09

Pals spacing… deviations

 

10

Front cbund flap with “kangaroo pouch” outboard channels are larger than spec

 

11

Stitching on QR pull tab

 

12

Stitch alignment and lack of symmetry against pc body edge

 

13

That close to edge increases likelihood of seam failure

 

14

Unfinished raw edges of nylon, and velcro… along with loose stitching

 

15

Deviations of PALS “gap” spacing. . Should be 1″

 

16

Gap spacing… should be 1″

 

17

 

18

Cbund flap / kangaroo pouch… unfinished… leads to unintended bulk and a failure point

 

19

Another view of joint of kangaroo pouch… this will tearout since it isn’t reinforced

 

20

Another view of joint, raw edges could simply be dealt with by rolling in the finished edging and then stitching down

 

 

21

Already pulling apart… not even had a player loaded

 

22

Front platebag flap… note unevenness of stitching

 

23

Platebag joint

 

24

Plate bag closure loop… it’s sewn onto the space mesh externally to mate with the hoop on flap. Problem lies in the material piling when exposed to hook snagging. Also note the stitching to the left… that’s for the two inch wide strap that hold

the plate in

 

25

Detail of stitching through the spacer mesh for the loop inside the platebag. This means your plates are suspended by the spacer mesh only and is not reinforced

 

26

Detail of flap retainer strap… misaligned stitching

 

27

Hook side of front cbund flap/kangaroo pouch… all that loose threading was there at purchase time

 

28

Loops idea of front cbund attachment… notice lack of stitch “squaring” symmetry and non alignment of stitch boxes – off center

 

30

Single lines of stitching hold Velcro loop in place excess overhang can snag and tear out, and the closer the stitch line is to the edge… higher chance of tearout

 

31

Overhang .. should not be this much

 

32

Loose thread and misaligned stitching

 

33

The single point release derived from CIRAS SPR, uses a 1 in Webbing tab in lieu of a ripcord and dacron loop assembly. Once stacked, this assembly adds a full 1.5″ of depth to your setup

 

34

Unfinished edge on reverse side of SPR cover flap

 

35

Obverse of SPR cover flap

 

36

Stitching on cummerbund extension. .. note high tension cased malformed stitching “loops around Straight taut thread” appearance

 

37

Shoulder pads assembly

 

38

Shoulder strap with QRV release tunnel… showing exposed melted end rather than a folded over end to prevent friction fraying

 

 

 

Now the Velocity Systems Scarab Light PC (medium SAPI) but fitted with VS ULV 4mm plates

40

 

 

Scarab with front cbund flap removed. Non releaseable system no drag handle

 

41

Full width bartack on PALS

 

42

Representative stitch line found through this rig

 

43

8 stitch per inch

 

44

Stitching parallel to edging with reinforced layer joints

 

45

Laser cut finished edging on shoulder straps

 

46

Loop finishing… almost boring regular straights and alignments

 

47

Loop Webbing detail

 

48

Dimensional regularity

 

49

Reinforced points, but nowhere is the mesh lining stitched through

 

50

 

Rear face showing stitching alignment

 

51

 

Layering reinforcement where a second layer comes to an end over another

 

52

Bartack closeup

 

53

Bartacked pullflap

 

54

Channel alignment

 

55

Let’s stitch AND Bartack a cummerbund extension!

 

 

 

There's no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness.

 

Join Date: 11/18/07

Location: Northern Utah

Original Post

Excellent stuff from Eggroll!

Condor sucks.
Except for one soft shell jacket...

Re Velocity Systems.
Dave is a friend for 25yrs, is local, and I had some small input to the Scarab Light.

I have spent a lot of time with them up there, and that what they turn out is first class is no surprise.

They have the right people working and managing, and their QC/QA is nothing short of awesome.

If you do airsoft, buy garbage.
If you use it for real and you buy garbage, you are a fool.

Or a Cop. The only thing cheaper than a Cop is 2 Cops.


Never had a single regret purchasing VS equipment.

If times call for me to grab my PC, I'd rather not have to worry wether or not it is going to make it through the day.

 

...........................................................................................................................

Tact is for people not witty enough to use sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

...If you use it for real and you buy garbage, you are a fool.

Or a Cop. The only thing cheaper than a Cop is 2 Cops.

 
I agree, Pat, and the sad fact is, that most of these same types of individuals would still buy the cheapest Airsoft quality gear, even after having seen the evidence clearly presented here.
 
"Just as good as", and all of that….

                                                                                             ____________________________________________________________

                                   

                                                                                              "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match

                                                                                                 for a good blaster at your side."        -Cpt. Han Solo

                                                                                            ____________________________________________________________

 

Joined: 3/20/05 4:14 PM        Location:  North Carolina

Unseen besides stitch quality and reinforcement is the type of thread used.

 

Ultraviolet (sun) light eats nylon.  Military gear should be stitched with at least V69 nylon / MIL Ticket-E thread.  I'd guess most airsoft toy kit is done with polyester -- much cheaper but not as robust to stand up to the elements and conditions troops will serve in.

Originally Posted by 4track:
Originally Posted by Pat _Rogers:

...If you use it for real and you buy garbage, you are a fool.

Or a Cop. The only thing cheaper than a Cop is 2 Cops.

 
I agree, Pat, and the sad fact is, that most of these same types of individuals would still buy the cheapest Airsoft quality gear, even after having seen the evidence clearly presented here.
 
"Just as good as", and all of that….

Unless it's golf clubs or a Harley.  I shot with two co-workers today who have G-locks that are over 15 years old and still have the plastic sight fillers.  One has a $40k bike that gets ridden 2-3x a year and the other was bragging a few weeks ago about a  $2k set of sticks.

 

They both shoot like poop,  

Dusty black coat and a red right hand.

That was a really great post, thanks for that. I don't know how many times I've debated this issue and it always, degenerates into "you're just a gear snob" etc....It's your business what gear you use but be willing to call a spade a spade. Speaks volumes if you can't. 

I became a lot more understanding of cost and appreciative of what goes into making quality gear when I started venturing into making gear myself. 

 

 

 

God doesn't believe in athiests

I have simply given up with a few groups recommending Condor and other crap to people buying their stuff for (mostly US Mil) work. Makes me angry how much it's "mine works great" or "just as good" it goes. 

 

Now that I see this writeup I hate them more. Notice how much unfinished edges and other BS is on THE INSIDE? They are deliberately making it look okay (not great, just okay) on the shelf, and hide (who looks inside?) the corner cutting that makes shit literally fall apart 2 km into a march.*

 

 

I need this to be posted somewhere public I can link to. ETA: Forgot the top by the time I got to the bottom Bookmarked now. Suspect I will have to use it several times a month. 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

"If the department won't buy it for me, I don't need it." Heard that so many times it sickens me. When the department gives us a uniform allowance we can literally use on anything.

People see my kit, talk about how awesome it is/how it is a useable setup, then shutdown when they see the price tag. Invariably, I'll see them later, with some lookalike abortion, cobbled together out of Condor/Fox, and they'll be bitching because the setup sucks. Because the shitty chinese fastex won't stay closed, or the pouches dump mags everywhere, or the seams rip from the unbelievable stress of riding in the trunk. Then, somehow it's MY fucking fault, because they "copied" my rig.

"Fuck your mom in her dirty whore mouth, you felching, obdurate, acerbic, petulant little enfranchised fucking twit. How's that for vocabulary, motherfucker?" ~ 5.56 Grave

 

Joined: 10-14-2003                                        Location: Indiana, USA

Originally Posted by ipdb322:
"If the department won't buy it for me, I don't need it." Heard that so many times it sickens me. When the department gives us a uniform allowance we can literally use on anything.

People see my kit, talk about how awesome it is/how it is a useable setup, then shutdown when they see the price tag. Invariably, I'll see them later, with some lookalike abortion, cobbled together out of Condor/Fox, and they'll be bitching because the setup sucks. Because the shitty chinese fastex won't stay closed, or the pouches dump mags everywhere, or the seams rip from the unbelievable stress of riding in the trunk. Then, somehow it's MY fucking fault, because they "copied" my rig.

http://soldiersystems.net/2015...minimum-requirement/

There's no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness.

 

Join Date: 11/18/07

Location: Northern Utah

I agree completely. Reminds me of a recent event that I'll share with the group.

I just started at my new agency and I'm now in the FTO process, therefore, I'm the rookie (again). During breakfast with several other deputies the topic of plates and carriers comes up. The "leader" of the conversation is singing the praises of the likes of Condor etc. This guy is ARNG and has deployed, because of this the whole table is eating up what he is saying. I mention that I have a Banshee with steel plates, explaining that the Banshee is good kit for the price. I further explain that I would much rather have ceramic plates but that I was still researching the issue before committing to a particular set. The guy begins to say that steel is superior to ceramic because of the multi hit capability. I jokingly say that I would trade plates with him. Over the next few weeks guys start showing up with Condor carriers stuff with various brands of steel. Despite my counter arguments.

But the best part is I now have a set of Tap Gamma 3+ plates and he has my steel plates.

We issue an unbelievably garbage plate carrier constructed entirely of mesh.  Management got tired of hearing security officers' complaints about how hot it is to wear a PC in the South Florida heat and humidity, so the department head at the time managed to get Diamondback Tactical to sell us quite possibly the cheapest abomination of a vest that I've ever seen, one that makes the Condor stuff pictured above look like Crye.  And guys are wondering why they all now have back problems.  Couldn't possibly be that your plate carrier has no structure or weight-bearing ability, could it?

 

Luckily, a few of us have been allowed to purchase our own carriers for the purposes of long term evaluation.  More than a few guys have really liked the look of the Mayflower APC and LPAAC that I've been using ever since getting them approved, but they balk at the cost, to the point that one guy actually tried to tell me that his sub-$100 Rothco carrier was better because it was cheaper.  You can't make this stuff up.

Joined: 2JAN2004

Location: South Florida

Awesome article. I  actually bought  that exact Condor carrier in the article when I didn't know any better. I did a bunch of modifications to it trying to make it atleast function somewhat as a carrier, but I soon realized what a hopeless cause it was. I have had people ask if they buy it and I told them I wouldn't even be willing to give it to them for free because it is that bad. I'll have to save the link and have some friends of mine read it when they are thinking I buying some of Condor stuff. 

I tried to GIVE some local LEO's and a few buddies some Safariland 6360's and 6280's and was told by all but 1 officer "thanks but no thanks". even after they had several craptastic SERPA's fail in weapons retention training. They wanted to know how much because "they look damned expensive and we don't have any $$$..." 

I told them "free.99" and would you believe only one officer took me up and I wonder why I didn't get hired. I guess being proactive and learning from actual SME's is a bad thing.

 

Location: in SE Idaho, the birthplace of television. 

Thank the canex and px for setting the standards for joes who don't know better. 

_____________________________________________________________

"You see, that's the difference between you soldiers and us French expats, you run towards the sound of gunfire...we just close our blinds." Herve LANCIEN, 2012.

_____________________________________________________________

M. Wilson posted:

I tried to GIVE some local LEO's and a few buddies some Safariland 6360's and 6280's and was told by all but 1 officer "thanks but no thanks". even after they had several craptastic SERPA's fail in weapons retention training. They wanted to know how much because "they look damned expensive and we don't have any $$$..." 

I told them "free.99" and would you believe only one officer took me up and I wonder why I didn't get hired. I guess being proactive and learning from actual SME's is a bad thing.

 

I feel your pain. "The only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops" is sadly still a very true joke. I'd be all about free 6360's!

I am happy to say I have been able to convert a few buddies to understand why doing a little research and understanding value can be critical, but so many just look at the price tag even when they could afford it!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The concept that the Bill of Rights and other constitutional protections against arbitrary government are inoperative when they become inconvenient or when expediency dictates otherwise is a very dangerous doctrine and if allowed to flourish would destroy the benefit of a written Constitution and undermine the basis of our government. - Justice Black, Reid v. Covert, 1957

Bump since:

  1. This should be pinned anyway
  2. Because LF.net is reliable. The P&S link is dead. Dunno if they changed their URL scheme or it is really gone, but I do not care. I searched, and found it here because our threads are always where we leave them 

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. – Theodore Roosevelt

 

Joined: 19NOV2004   Location: Mission, Kansas

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

 

 

 

God doesn't believe in athiests

ADK posted:

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

I'm asking because I don't know - not because I'm advocating for them - but has condor maybe improved somewhat over the years? I don't have a single piece of their gear anywhere.  This really is out of curiosity, so please don't hurt me. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

SPDSNYPR posted:
ADK posted:

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

I'm asking because I don't know - not because I'm advocating for them - but has condor maybe improved somewhat over the years? I don't have a single piece of their gear anywhere.  This really is out of curiosity, so please don't hurt me. 

It`s quite possible they have improved, but they copied alot of other companie`s gear (TT, Eaglle, TAD, Camelbak etc...) back in their infancy, and there is still one or two bags on their website that bear a striking resemblance to others. 

 

 

 

God doesn't believe in athiests

ADK posted:

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

ADK I was fairly surprised w/ the Condor mention on Eric’s site (SSD), care to share anything further on SSD & it’s current significance in the industry?

Joined: 3.28.09            

Location: NETX

SPDSNYPR posted:
ADK posted:

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

I'm asking because I don't know - not because I'm advocating for them - but has condor maybe improved somewhat over the years? I don't have a single piece of their gear anywhere.  This really is out of curiosity, so please don't hurt me. 

I have been issued some of there stuff.  It held up just as well as my Gucci items.  These were just small pouches for tools or SSE related stuff.  Regarding ADK's comment.  soldier systems has never steered me wrong.  The quality of companies change all the time (who hears Volvos being called the safest cars these days?), and it would not surprise me if they took a hint from feedback and changed their production. 

MG in TX posted:
ADK posted:

Yes again. I was pretty dissapointed to see Condor being advocated for on Soldier Systems Daily a few days ago....speaks volumes to me about future articles and their worth. That blog has lost it`s flavour for me. 

ADK I was fairly surprised w/ the Condor mention on Eric’s site (SSD), care to share anything further on SSD & it’s current significance in the industry?

No, that`s all I have unfortunately.  Or maybe that`s good lol. I just get really turned off when I see companies like Crye, TT, BFG etc...get reviewed on a regular basis, companies that pay alot for their R&D and innovation, and don`t compromise, and then seeing a company like Condor mentioned alongside them? To me they're oil and water, fire and ice etc...

 

 

 

God doesn't believe in athiests

For those who haven't gone to SSD to see what was actually written:

SHOT Show 18 – Condor ELITE Ultralight Adjustable Mag Pouches and Modular Load Carriage Systems

During SHOT Show 18 I was shown something that surprised me. In fact, it will surprise my readers as well, because I’m writing an article about Condor products. They’ve definitely stepped up their game. A few years ago, they introduced their Condor ELITE Line which features new materials and construction techniques but this, well it takes it a different level. They are innovating...

Participation does not equal Proficiency - Mike Pannone. Re-stated "Participation in one area does not equal Proficiency in another!"

 

Joined: November 2002

I am a Condor dealer.

Having said that, the only items of theirs that I have ever stocked or sold (or personally used) are their jackets.

I have been selling and using their Summit, Summit Zero, Sierra and Alpha  jackets/fleeces for years, and they have never let me down. It also doesn't hurt that I can get them at cost.

I have supplied them to guys going overseas, and I have never had a complaint, or one returned.

I have never bothered looking at any of their other kit, as I am also an ATS, BFG, FirstSpear and HSGI dealer.

Next year at SHOT, I will take a look at their Elite stuff, and compare it with gear of known quantity.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

MWL posted:

I am a Condor dealer.

Having said that, the only items of theirs that I have ever stocked or sold (or personally used) are their jackets.

I have been selling and using their Summit, Summit Zero, Sierra and Alpha  jackets/fleeces for years, and they have never let me down. It also doesn't hurt that I can get them at cost.

I have supplied them to guys going overseas, and I have never had a complaint, or one returned.

I have never bothered looking at any of their other kit, as I am also an ATS, BFG, FirstSpear and HSGI dealer.

Next year at SHOT, I will take a look at their Elite stuff, and compare it with gear of known quantity.

Regards.

Mark

My old unit used to buy the softshells. Most of the zippers broke on them just from regular daily use.

Kango posted:
MWL posted:

I am a Condor dealer.

Having said that, the only items of theirs that I have ever stocked or sold (or personally used) are their jackets.

I have been selling and using their Summit, Summit Zero, Sierra and Alpha  jackets/fleeces for years, and they have never let me down. It also doesn't hurt that I can get them at cost.

I have supplied them to guys going overseas, and I have never had a complaint, or one returned.

I have never bothered looking at any of their other kit, as I am also an ATS, BFG, FirstSpear and HSGI dealer.

Next year at SHOT, I will take a look at their Elite stuff, and compare it with gear of known quantity.

Regards.

Mark

My old unit used to buy the softshells. Most of the zippers broke on them just from regular daily use.

That was one of the complaints about the original jackets.

Condor responded by replacing the zippers with genuine YKK zippers a few years ago, and I haven't seen any issues since.

Regards.

Mark

Formerly known as ML

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