First things first: I don't intend to start an argument here and I did search and found these threads: http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...621083362#8621083362 http://lightfighter.net/eve/fo...491021683#9491021683 that answered some questions I had, but not all.

The Magpul DVD release as well as a recent discussion I had with someone featured in that product has left me wondering why the shotgun? It seems the biggest selling point is versatility- both of the above threads and several others mention the ability for less-lethal and breaching rounds as well as chemical, tazer, and other specific use loads. I understand the need for less-lethal options for LE and some Mil applications, but for me the versatility argument doesn't fly. A less-lethal gun is a valuable tool, but it seems that many if not most agencies using them dedicate a weapon for less-lethal applications and ONLY that application. Orange/red stocked 870's are on the wall at several LE dealers and one local shop I've visited in the last 6 months. But if it is strictly a less-lethal gun, the versatility argument is moot. For breaching, again, that (in my mind) makes it a specific tool. When we carried shotguns overseas we did so in addition to our rifle/carbine, not as a replacement. For all the other applications (to include less lethal) it seems as though one of the stronger virtues of the shotgun could also be said of the m203- which you don't see in a lot of folks' safes these days.

The question I have is simply what niche or primary function does a shotgun serve that a rifle or carbine does not do as well or better? In terms of home defense, offensive or defensive military use, or just about any type of situation in which you are carrying a tool to kill someone with, I can't see an advantage in limiting range, limiting optics options, limiting magazine capacity, limiting ergonomics, and slowing reloads. Now the caveat here, I freely admit that I have had virtually no formal training and only a small amount of "operational" experience using shotguns. I've owned a few- (870 police mag with Wilson extended mag tube and speedfeed stock that was stolen, Mossberg Mariner 590 with a shortened stock and Surefire fore-end that I sold after not using it, and a Beretta 391x that I received as a gift and use for trap/skeet/sporting clays) and the only one I have ever held on to is a bird gun. I see and hear folks very, very frequently recommend a 12 ga for home defense more commonly than almost all other suggestions combined. I just don't see why. When the virtues of shotguns are spewed forth by the various gun shop commando types I hear mostly inaccurate or irrelevant info- everything from "you don't have to aim" to the whole "scaring them off by cycling the action" crap. When I hear the justifications from folks who are generally pretty switched on, I don't see any advantages over a rifle, a rifle that corrects many of the shortcomings of the shotgun at that.

I don't want to be closed minded and I want to understand how to employ ANY weapons system under ANY circumstance, so that leads me here to the SMEs. For those who have extensive training and experience with these guns, what are the real benefits over other weapons systems? I refuse to believe that these benefits don't exist based on the fact that so many agencies, departments and virtually every branch of service still use shotguns in some capacity. There has to be something here I'm not seeing or haven't experienced in training. I'm not looking to debate one type of shotgun over another, to discredit them as a weapons system- I am simply looking to find out the answer to that question: what do they do (outside of less lethal, breeching and sports/hunting) that makes them a viable weapon compared to everything else available to the end user?
Original Post
I like them to bust sporting clays and to kill Pheasants.... other then that... I don't have much use for one (Never said I didn't know how to use one... Wink)

I'm sure the Magpul guys new video is going to have Shotgun sales going thru the roof and Barfcom will have some awesomely funny threads to read regarding the subject...

If I thought a shotgun was the answer... I would be training with it and using it.. I'm pretty much with you. I don't see anything the shotgun can do that my Carbine can't
Large and bulky ammo..
limited magazine capacity...
slow rate of fire that requires me to move my support hand to run the gun...
slow reloads...
Short range...
poor ergonomics...

I'm no expert, but I have spent enough time behind both to know which one I want to run when the chips are down. And I don't have to pick one based on the geographical location and a fear of litigation based on which one I use when applying deadly force in defense of me and my family.
Legal concerns would be a great point, one that I hadn't given any thought to before you mentioned it.

Here's another question that I should have included earlier- for the instructors out there working with relatively "fresh" students that lack an extensive training background, do you find the shotgun an easier weapon to train folks on? I have not taken any formal classes, and have not taught any, but I'd be curious to pick some brains in this regard. If a student is able to learn how to run the gun faster, more effectively, and in a shorter time frame than they could with an M4, that would be a solid pro-scattergun argument as well as an explanation for why they are still everywhere in the military and LE.
I always found a shotgun to be tougher to teach. Recoil could be a problem, but in general, people who wanted to shoot shotgun had already accustomed themselves to the recoil and instruction in stance helped. But the biggie was ammo management. Keeping it topped off is a skill that needs to be practiced. Part of that was knowing when to load and what not to do while doing so. I was trained, and in turn trained others, to try and shove as many shells in the tube as you had just shot.

We had a "jungle run". Multiple targets down a path that you had to search for and engage when you saw them. There is a different mindset in competition vs. fighting and I had to constantly remind people that in the fighting game, finishing first didn't win the prize, finishing WAS the prize. Too many guys would engage a couple of targets and then start rushing down the trail while still loading. Then they'd round a bend and there was a target in the middle of a load. In real life, he'd have got the shot off first and you'd be dead. Better to have the slowest time but finish without an AAR commentary on the targets you didn't see or the ones that got you first. The other extreme was the guy who didn't start loading until the tube was empty and one target got a click instead of a boom. Fail.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

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Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
for the instructors out there working with relatively "fresh" students that lack an extensive training background, do you find the shotgun an easier weapon to train folks on?



No, in fact, in my experience it's the opposite.

The gauge is harder to run and thus harder to teach, the pump guns is what I am referencing here. Poorly run the shooter is the weak link in the reliability chain on these guns, shooter induced malfs are common.

Running a shotgun is more skill intensive, much like running a revolver well, as you have to load one at a time with loose ammo.
You also have to keep track of two types of loose ammo and know how and when to load each (buckshot vs slugs).

They also recoil a great deal more, which tends to be a turn off for beginners.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Price: An 870 can be had for about half or even 1/3 of what you would pay for most AR's My 870 was about $200 whereas most decent ar's are about $1k give or take. So you have price.

Lethality: Shotguns do a lot of damage. Up close they do massive trauma with 00 buck. You've always been told that two or three shots will do far more damage than one how about nine.
Far away you've got a .73 cal slug that does a good bit of damage to someone, these are accurate 50-100 yards. with saboted slugs I've heard you can get 330 yards (I haven't tried this or done this personally)

SHTF: many argue that you can not only use it for self defense but for hunting etc. anything from deer to fowl.

Sport: 3 gun, skeet, trap etc.

Legality: Shotguns are legal where black rifles aren't. Not to mention some regard it as more "acceptable" to the common people than you're AK-47/M16 used to fight wars with ( I mean who in their right mind would buy that type of gun right?) (BTW that's sarcasm) I'm not going to support that notion but plenty of people feel that way.

Commonality of ammo: Shotguns are just about everywhere. I believe even most countries that hardly allow anything will allow shotguns.

Reliability: at least as far as pumps are concerned I rarely see malfunctions. Semi's are a different story however.



Also Saiga's are basically AK-style shotguns now. I'd say they're pretty bad ass. 12 round mags etc. I'd say they're as viable as an SBR for home defense. Once you get all the bells and whistles.

Yes you have to aim! I often have to tell people that the spread is not as big as they think. and it's still easy to miss with a shotgun though there is a higher margin for error.

As Travis says in this DVD trailer. "I don't use a pump to scare someone I use a pump to shoot someone." I never tell customers the pump BS and often try to correct them when they spout that crap to their friends.

Do I feel it's a replacement for an AR? Personally no. Do I still think it's a viable weapons system? Yes. It comes down to whats right for you and what are you comfortable with. Some people shoot shotgun all the time. And will be much more familiar with it than an AR that they never shoot. A Marine or Soldier is very likely to be much more familiar with an AR and gravitate towards that.

But personally I'd say AR trumps shotgun in most cases. Just saying there are viable reasons to own and train with a shotgun.
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
As Travis says in this DVD trailer. "I don't use a pump to scare someone I use a pump to shoot someone." I never tell customers the pump BS and often try to correct them when they spout that crap to their friends.

Unfortunatly,I've personally seen that mindset displayed by other individuals on the retailer side of the counter as a 'selling point' trying to move merchandise to some customer asking for advice about 'home defense' guns or whatever.

“...The helicopter symbolizes the victory of ingenuity over common sense.”

From the Instructor side....what TPD said is on the money.

For practical use. The Remington 870 was my primary close quarters bad guy hunting gun. I did a lot of work with them, because most officers didn't like to carry them or didn't know how. Most of the folks I worked with always knew that on hot calls I was going to bring a 12ga., so they didn't bother....which worked well.
The shotgun was my primary close quarters long gun because they flat put stuff down when used in handgun range. FAR better than any handgun, and they are far easier to hit with than a pistol. In typical indoor shootings, shotguns make great big tunnels through things that are hard to fight through. For home defense they are far more "acceptable" to L/E responders, District Attorney's, the media and juries.....if you think that "doesn't matter" and you have the "right" to use whatever you want......cool, go ahead and do what you want.........my experience says you will not enjoy the aftermath of shooting some guy in your living room with your tricked out SBR'd AR. If you live in a restricted state.......you can times my last comment by ten.

Another reality is the how many rounds do you need? Multiple attackers or crooks that you will deal with in your home would be two. Unlike overseas, this is not an insurgent or terrorist uprising (that is why I have lots of AR's....uprisings and the like Wink ) The shotgun is very capable of dealing with most indoor domestic threats very effectively with minimal rounds.....which is what I am looking for on a domestic lethal force use. A good example was a case years ago when LAPD SWAT was going into a residence on a solo barricade. Most of the entry team was carrying Benelli's with the exception of a couple of pistol armed Scouts (who do door opening, mirrors, cuffing, banger deployment). Some know-it-all's were critical because of not using the MP-5's.......let's see...solo guy with a gun, no hostages, in a small residence with no distance longer than maybe 7-10 yards.........why would you not want a rapid shooting 12ga?

The shotgun is a tool with a very specific place in the tool-box. It is a specialty tool that excels in a limited realm. That limited realm happens to be where most people will actually use a firearm to protect their family and home. They are not for everyone. The carbine is a better do it all tool. With that said, well trained shotgun folks with well set up guns should not be laughed at in a fight inside their effective realm.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

As I have written previously and as many of the previous posts note, there are multiple factors that will play a role in determining which weapon might be the best choice, particularly for civilian home defense.

From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile; it is for this reason that Dr. Fackler has expressed his preference for 12 ga buckshot over 5.56 mm for close range defensive use. Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon or 12 ga shotgun will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint. Keep in mind that over the past 20 years, the vast majority of the 5.56mm/.223 loads we tested have exhibited significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles after first penetrating through interior walls. Stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures, thus 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations, home defense scenarios, and in crowded urban environments than handgun service caliber or 12 ga. weapons. Below are the wound profiles of unobstructed shots at 3 meters, comparing several weapons that might be used for home defense:



Note that the M1 carbine, 16” barrel AR15, 18” barrel shotgun with a “youth” stock, and 16” barrel lever action carbine are all approximately the same length and offer the equivalent ease of maneuvering, so bickering about weapon size is a somewhat moot point when comparing weapons of this type. From an ergonomic and weapon manipulation standpoint, the AR15 is far superior to the other weapons, followed by the M1 carbine, and then distantly trailed by the shotgun and lever action carbine. Likewise, the AR15 is the most modular and allows the easiest mounting of various accessories. Unfortunately, AR15’s are also usually more expensive. In addition, in some locales, AR15’s are more highly regulated and/or feared than other less “scary” looking weapons; in those areas, an AR15’s “military” appearance may prejudice some LE officers who respond to a lethal force incident, as well as the DA and jury… If living in a state with asinine legal restrictions on firearms regulations or a liberal “weapon phobic” region, a PC, plain-jane appearing shoulder fired weapon that does not scare the metaphorical sheep might be prudent…

In an indoors static defensive role against a single violent assailant who was advancing on me, a 12 ga. shotgun would be my first choice. However, if there are multiple criminals assaulting me or in a time of domestic unrest and upheaval with potentially large crowds of hostile individuals roaming about, or in situations that would require movement outdoors, then I would far prefer a magazine fed shoulder fired weapon capable of greater range, faster reloading, and greater ammunition capacity than a shotgun.

Finally, there is the matter of weapon familiarity and training. In 20+ years of military and LE use, I have fired far more rounds of ammunition, had more training with, and greater experience using AR15 based rifles than any other type of shoulder fired weapon. And while I have also trained with and used other shoulder fired weapons including MP5’s, M14’s/M1A’s, shotguns, bolt guns, and the odd M1 Garand, M1 carbine, and lever gun—baring legal restrictions, in a chaotic, stress filled situation, I would feel most comfortable and confident using an AR15 based weapon due to my previous training and experience.
i would not hesitate to take a shotgun into a gunfight if it were my only option...

but other than that...shotguns excel at killing birds and opening doors.

A shotgun is one of the most difficult weapons to keep running, especially while moving or engaging multiple targets.

Give anyone a box-mag fed carbine and immediately their lethality and fighting efficiency goes through the roof.

the firepower/lethality of the 12G round (be it 00, slug, whatever) does not trump the fact that you have a weapon that holds a total of 6-7 rounds, and needs to be fed one round at a time...AND racked between shots....fucking lame. No one would put up with that in ANY OTHER CALIBER for a fighting gun. 12g is NOT a magic death ray...so it SHOULDNT get a pass.

Its the same reason that single action army pistols are no longer the go to gun for professional pistol fighters.


how do you switch from CQB to engage a long range target with a shotgun? take cover, rack slide, clear 00 from chamber, select the proper slug from your side saddle or pouch, drop into ejection port, rack slide forward, engage target.

How do you do the same thing with a carbine? pull the fucking trigger.

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

quote:
the firepower/lethality of the 12G round (be it 00, slug, whatever) does not trump the fact that you have a weapon that holds a total of 6-7 rounds, and needs to be fed one round at a time...AND racked between shots....fucking lame. No one would put up with that in ANY OTHER CALIBER for a fighting gun. 12g is NOT a magic death ray...so it SHOULDNT get a pass.


How's that 5.56 work on large clawed animals? Not an issue where I live, but it is for many when it comes to protecting their family. Been in many gunfights with BG's in say........a car. 12 ga. slug is my #1 go to choice for vehicle bound predators. So how do you transition your AR from a non vehicle bound BG to a vehicle bound one?..........

My point here is not to be a dick (even though it may come off that way Wink ), my point is that I can find less than optimal situations for any system. It's why I maintain proficiency with several tools so that I can make the best selection for the situation at hand or what best fits my immediate needs. In my home, in SoCal, that is a Vang Comp 870. Sure, I have a fully equipped AR sitting next to it, but the last time i had to grab a long gun due to circumstances that warranted it...it was the 870. Other times, it may not be.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

If you train and aare current then a rifle always wins...if it is something you drag out once a year and practice with...it is a whole world easier to hit bad folk in low light with a shotgun rather than a rifle.

In Africa, years of 'ordinary farmers' miners and enginers etc having to fight off superior numbers of communists armed with AK47's have demonstated the shotguns superiority. It is a defensive tool..very good at supressing fire, especially when used with appropriate sized shot. (in Africa 0 Buck -SSG- was found to offer the best combination of hit probability and wounding effect. - I suspect the newer 3" no 4 buck would be better. AAA is too small).

I don't belive it is a professional soldiers weapon. I can snap shoot and reliably hit a target at 50m without using the sights on my rifle and certainly going to do better at night with my FAL...becuase I am very used to it...it put 1-2000 rounds a week through FAL's over seveal years in training...the muscle memory is there.

For the average citizen though...the shotgun has much to recomend it!
quote:
Originally posted by PATH:

If I thought a shotgun was the answer... I would be training with it and using it.. I'm pretty much with you. I don't see anything the shotgun can do that my Carbine can't
Large and bulky ammo..
limited magazine capacity...
slow rate of fire that requires me to move my support hand to run the gun...
slow reloads...
Short range...
poor ergonomics...



I'm gonna have to disagree with these comments.

We were running timed exercises with shotguns this weekend. Aimed double shots from the buzzer in 0.96 seconds. The first split was ~0.65.

This was firing 00 or SSG rounds through an 870.

There is nothing slow about shooting a shotgun. Especially if you want to get all mad and start deviding shot times by number of projectiles and the like. (It becomes something like 1100rpm- HAHAHAHA Riiiiight Smile ) The only problem with being able to shoot a shotgun fast is the agreed low capacity. All 7 rounds can be downrange in a couple of seconds.

However many people (read gunshop commandos) stand by the single stack 1911 being a good home defence weapon. Depending on what brand of magazines you use, you might be stuck with 7+1 anyway. While the 1911 will reload faster than a pump shotgun, it starts off with a similar number of rounds in it.

Poor ergonomics? I don't understand that. While a shotgun might need a little work on it to make the ergonomics better, I don't find anything wrong with it. A stock AK has bad ergonomics as it requires too much weapon manipulation to work the gun, but a shotgun? The fire controls are all accessed by your firing hand (if you are right handed), the "charging handle" is controlled by your left hand. The sight picture is easy to get, as is the required cheek weld. The center of balance might be a little far forwards, and the release mechanism for the pump might be a little off, but nothing I'd say is bad.

Going from safe to fire is easier with most pumps than with an M1 Carbine.

Short range? Well yes. But honestly I'd only be using a shotgun as a big pistol. It is easier to aim and more effective than a pistol, but it fits in the pistol's envelope. I understand that a rifle/carbine will fit in the same envelope as well as allow longer ranged engagements but I don't honestly see it as a drawback for most civilian applications.

I agree that the best "jack of all trades" would be a nice rifle/carbine. And I'm very pro semi auto rifle for home defence but I don't see much reason to hate on the shotgun.

Shotguns to however require MUCH MORE training than what people give them. I've even had people high up in the police say "they are easy to use and you don't need to aim them".

Keeping shotguns fed, feeding them properly, and working the action are 3 simple things that can cause a shotgun to become a liability .

These do require a software upgrade, and an extensive one at that.

Bugger. Re reading the topic to see if I missed anything and I did.

Nyeti pretty much said everything I tried to in a page an a half in two lines.
quote:
The shotgun is a tool with a very specific place in the tool-box. It is a specialty tool that excels in a limited realm. That limited realm happens to be where most people will actually use a firearm to protect their family and home. They are not for everyone. The carbine is a better do it all tool. With that said, well trained shotgun folks with well set up guns should not be laughed at in a fight inside their effective realm.

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

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Personally, I didn't say I didn't like the gauge, I do, or that I wouldn't pick one for many of the same reasons outlined by my brother in SoCal, I would, just that they are harder to teach.

If I worked in a place that had really big animals I'd be sure to have a 12 gauge pump gun along,,,,, and a supply of Benneke slugs, .72 hole in and a .72 hole on the way out, be it buck, bear or Buick. Can't do that with a carbine.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

Personally, I have had a love affair with the shotgun since handling my first M590 at USMC security forces school in Virginia Beach back in 1988. The classes we learned were based on Louis Awerbuck's teachings and after a week of running those guns, we got to be fairly decent with them.
Today I still keep an AR and a Mossberg M590 by the bed but if things go bump in the night, the weapon I'll grab first every time is the shotgun. I don't expect the average burglar to be wearing body armor I need to punch through (although a failure to stop drill WOULD be interesting with a load of OO buck to the face!!!!) nor do I think things would be easy to explain to a jury why a target past 25 meters needed to be shot when we are looking at things from a self defense aspect rather than a military one. In this arena (soft squishy targets inside 25 meters) is an area where the shotgun excels against all other designs IMHO. Yes, the ammo is heavy, bulky and loading one at a time can be slow but the power of a load of buckshot into a target at close range has always had a very good reputation as an immediate fight stopper and in home defense, that's what matters to me.
Just to add to the conversation, and keep in mind my experiance with shotguns is nil; shooting clays off the back of my buddies truck with a double barrel nil.

Arent a lot of semi-auto and even pump shotguns prone to being finicky with certain types of loads? One nice thing with my AR is that I know even if its a mixed magazine of PMC, Brown Bear, Wolf, and Hornady for example (yes, it happened) I know its going to function regardless of what round goes through it. I guess my familiarity of the Carbine makes me more apt to go for that in the event of trouble over the shotty.

Also- We do have Cougar's in WA and were my parents vacation Bear's are common. Would a shotgun be something to recommend for 4 legged predator's as a travel gun? I imagine it would be easier to transport across state lines w/o any issues if your forced to use it in a state other then the one it is registered in.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

From an instructor's stand point I try to express the fact guns are tools and you can't build a house with just a hammer. Different applications require different tools. That being said I teach more carbine classes than I do shotgun. Of course the shotgun has it's weaknesses but, what weapon does not?
Personally I like the shot b/c of it's versatility. Depending on what you feed it gives the end user a lot of options.
Also as mentioned above it's a "friendlier" looking gun. To me that sounds fucking dumb. A gun is a gun. I don't care if it's hot pink and bedazzled and a external speaker that blares ABBA.

______________________________ "I carry two kinds of trauma kits. One for reducing and one for inducing."

The only good reason for a shotgun is that you can't have a rifle for some ungodly reason....

But for the above, there is absolutely no upside whatsoever. Primarily you don't have the precision of a rifle. You then go down a laundry list of disadvantages like range, speed, maneuverability.... And BTW posting some video of a super-shooter who only trains with shotguns 24/7 doing things really, really, really fast and accurately is not going to impress me; I think we have all seen people fumbling around on the ranges with their eyes down (and glazed from the recoil) trying to get their shotgun reloaded and back on target... At almost every shotgun course I've ever been to they immediately switch you from your full-house training rounds to bird shot or something so that you don't get beaten up. What a joke.

As was mentioned by someone else, they are much more complex to work and train with than rifles.

I appreciate some of you who are very experienced AND proficient with both rifles and shotguns referring to niche situations. But there are relatively few of them involving Hatten rounds, etcetera. You can almost always do it with an M4 pushed directly up against the bolt of the door rather than attack the hinge side.... Do I want to carry around TWO long guns; hell no.

And don't even get me started on the whole "less lethal" concept. That should be its own thread.

"It is well that war is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee's remark to Longstreet at Fredericksburg in 1862

My only reason for asking is I have been trying vainly to find a firearm that will have a positive effect on say a bear, but wont discourage the user from familiarizing himself or herself with the weapon.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

quote:
Originally posted by SF18CW9:
The only good reason for a shotgun is that you can't have a rifle for some ungodly reason....

But for the above, there is absolutely no upside whatsoever. Primarily you don't have the precision of a rifle. You then go down a laundry list of disadvantages like range, speed, maneuverability.... And BTW posting some video of a super-shooter who only trains with shotguns 24/7 doing things really, really, really fast and accurately is not going to impress me; I think we have all seen people fumbling around on the ranges with their eyes down (and glazed from the recoil) trying to get their shotgun reloaded and back on target... At almost every shotgun course I've ever been to they immediately switch you from your full-house training rounds to bird shot or something so that you don't get beaten up. What a joke.

As was mentioned by someone else, they are much more complex to work and train with than rifles.

I appreciate some of you who are very experienced AND proficient with both rifles and shotguns referring to niche situations. But there are relatively few of them involving Hatten rounds, etcetera. You can almost always do it with an M4 pushed directly up against the bolt of the door rather than attack the hinge side.... Do I want to carry around TWO long guns; hell no.

And don't even get me started on the whole "less lethal" concept. That should be its own thread.


That's an excellent point. Most shooters who are big shotgun proponents, spend time with them and are proficient. For those who say they don't have a slow rate of fire.. go watch the average joe load one and shoot one.... what a hoot. and folks don't get a positive pump and induce malfuctions under stress and when being pushed and they "outrun there head lights."

I think there common because they take little skill to use in a rudimentary sort of way... and ALOT and I mean ALOT of people still subscribe to the shotgun as a "Broom" where you just point and shoot and you can clear a whole room and you just point vs aim.


and as far as evil AR vs friendly shotgun... I subscribe to a good shoot being a good shoot. once deadly force has been decided on, the weapon should not factor in. Does it? yea,in some areas (which is a whole nother thread) but luckily I choose not to live in those areas.

and how much learning is going on after a day of shooting 300 rds of shotgun... Yea, I do push pull.. but if your not used to it, your going to be sore and tired after a day and then after 2??

I will say this, the magpul guys video will help to dispell a lot of stupid shit out there about the shotgun and that's never a bad thing.
I've seen just as many beginner shooters fumble and drop mags from an AR or try to put a pistol mag in backwards or who come off of our shooting range to ask me to clear their "Jam" when sometimes it's there is no malfunction. IE the gun is on safe.

Not to say the shotgun is the easiest thing to learn. But I still believe the shotgun is a good defensive tool as well as having a range of other uses that still make it a viable tool.
For me, the two concepts that I find the most relevant to this discussion are the tools for the tool box idea and the fact that in life, the ramifications of shootings can go on for years past the actual incident. For that reason I'm in the shotgun next to my bed camp.

Even with its limited range and capacity, any reasonable scenario inside my home is well covered. I've seen 00 buck work the first time on all manner of 4 legged beasts on warrants. Pistols, MP5's, and AR's with the same "good hits" just have not been as effective with producing immediate incapacitation.

Finally for a citizen, depending on the political climate of your area the difference for a completely justifiable shoot with a shotgun vs. an AR could mean tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and years of stress. Of course it does not make sense, but it is the unfortunate reality in areas where black rifles are inherently evil.

For general patrol work, IMHO the AR is the obvious tool for the job, but the shotgun has several niches it fills well.
For me, I don't get to choose where I live. I'm on contract and stuck in socal, I also grew up here. So the argument for a DA/LE/jury response is highly valid for me. My AR looks like a special forces carbine, its tricked out, painted etc etc.
I do not want to know what the reaction would be if I used that in a HD situation... Not good for me. ARs are neutered here, bullet button 10 rd mags. So those two extra rounds and the slow and AWKWARD reload trumps the mag capacity and ergo arguments. I reach for my Bennelli M1 or G34 when I wake up startled at night.
The reaction of me using one of those two would be much more favorable than if I used my AR.
quote:
Originally posted by Virgil:
My only reason for asking is I have been trying vainly to find a firearm that will have a positive effect on say a bear, but wont discourage the user from familiarizing himself or herself with the weapon.


12 gauge with slugs or a 45/70 lever gun. That would discourage any bear I know of most of the time.

Bother no one, if someone bothers you, ask him to stop, if he does not, DESTROY HIM- Musashi When all the diplomatic dra is finished someone will have to kill the bastards. - Hiween Doma-Sa Steel cuts flesh/ steel cuts bone/but steel does not cut steel.- Musashi Men of action, when they lose all belief, believe only in action- Yeats

quote:
Here's another question that I should have included earlier- for the instructors out there working with relatively "fresh" students that lack an extensive training background, do you find the shotgun an easier weapon to train folks on?



NO! For new people, the M1Super 90 is the equivalent of mastering the F-14 Tomcat. For all other new shooters, understanding, on the fly, the pattern at specific ranges seems to be a bitch. Put them in a mall full of people and the need for a shot Eek

Professional use of the shotgun is, in my opinion, actually more complex than any rifle.

Yet...I still like shotguns.
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
I've seen just as many beginner shooters fumble and drop mags from an AR or try to put a pistol mag in backwards or who come off of our shooting range to ask me to clear their "Jam" when sometimes it's there is no malfunction. IE the gun is on safe.

Not to say the shotgun is the easiest thing to learn. But I still believe the shotgun is a good defensive tool as well as having a range of other uses that still make it a viable tool.


those folks are fumbling an AR mag after putting 2 rounds in the chest of 15 different bad guys. not after 7 shots.

ya know?

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
I've seen just as many beginner shooters fumble and drop mags from an AR or try to put a pistol mag in backwards or who come off of our shooting range to ask me to clear their "Jam" when sometimes it's there is no malfunction. IE the gun is on safe.

Not to say the shotgun is the easiest thing to learn. But I still believe the shotgun is a good defensive tool as well as having a range of other uses that still make it a viable tool.


those folks are fumbling an AR mag after putting 2 rounds in the chest of 15 different bad guys. not after 7 shots.

ya know?


Roll Eyes

If they're fumbling mag changes, chances are they didn't hit shit with their first 28 rounds. Or they're fumbling it in an attempt to load it to begin with.

I don't own a shotgun, but the fact remains at close range nothing comes close to a hit with 00 buck. It has it's place in the toolbox. Is it ideal for every situation? No. But neither is a pistol.

At close range, shotguns excel at killing damn near anything on two or 4 legs in North America. That right there says alot, to those that need it.
A tool is a tool. At the end of the day, if you are going to pick it up to defend hearth and home....be proficient with it.

" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " -George Orwell Celer, Silens, Mortalitas "Swift, Silent, Deadly"

I hope you guys don´t mind me chime in, but i would like to buy a shotgun in the next time. For me, it´s a question of pump vs auto. With so many expert knowledge here, i hope it an be answered.

Usage will be sporting, hunting and self defense.

So, if a automatic shot gun is strictly operated with loads above a certain power level, and it´s a qualitiy gun like the Remington 11-87 or Benelli M2, would you say it is at least as reliable as a properly operated pump gun? What tube fed gun would you recommend?

"Fighting Power", in brief, is defined as the sum total of mental qualities that make armies (or men) fight. Martin van Creveld

Rifle or shotgun? Depends on your environment and intended use. Are you LE, mil, hunting, civ. home defense? Neither, overall, is better or worse than the other. They are, however, employed differently.

I have used rifles/carbines in the mil. I have used a carbine at LE work in the past, and now only use a shotgun. At home, I have a shotgun prepped, along with a pistol.

At work, we use Federal Precision buckshot, and slugs. I don't know what the rifle guys are running in their ARs. I was looking at an autopsy report, with photos and xrays of a guy that got shot in my precinct. He was hit with .40 180gr GDHP, rifle 5.56, and precision buckshot. The rifle and shotgun were in the torso. The 5.56 just really kinda fizzled. Not a killing shot. Maybe it's the ammo they use, I don't know. The precision buckshot really fucked him up. Are rifles lethal, especially for distance? Yup. But, 25 to 50 yards with my shotgun, I can nail my intended target, with the buckshot, and be pretty durned lethal and accurate, too.

For LE, I simply prefer my 870. If the shotgun is set up well, with things like ghost rings, extended magazine, sling, light, you have a versatile tool. We don't run less lethal through our patrol shotguns. For us, the patrol shotgun is a specialty program, same as rifles. Individually issued to volunteers who receive extensive training. There are no shotguns issued to anyone else. If you don't want to participate as a shotgun/rifle officer, you get a Glock.

Why do I prefer the shotgun? Most of my encounters as an LEO are not at the 300 yards distance. I'm in, close, usually within 25 yards. Or, going in a structure. Or within traffic stop range. My 870 is ideal for that range. I have the option of the amazing performance of the precision buckshot, or, if dealing with cover or vehicles, I can select slug, and engage hardened targets. If I HAVE to deal with a threat at distance, I regularly qualify with slugs at 50 yards, and have trained with slugs at 100. I have utter confidence in my abilities with my 870.

For LE, it boils down to ammunition selection, equipment selection for the gun, and, mostly, training with it.

I don't hesitate to get in the ass of gunstore commandos, or anyone else that says the bullshit like , "you don't have to aim", or, "the sound of the slide scares them". Granted, I have been on calls where officers have been pointing pistols at a guy, and I pop out, rack the 870 and aim in, and he suddenly gets cooperative. That is simply an occasional bonus, not something to be used as doctrine.

Shotguns are certainly harder to train, and more demanding to use proficiently than a carbine. New users, especially smaller women, tend to be intimidated by the recoil, reputation, etc. Reload drills take longer, and can get complicated under stress.

Overall, I prefer the shotgun for my niche use in LE.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

quote:


NO! For new people, the M1Super 90 is the equivalent of mastering the F-14 Tomcat. For all other new shooters, understanding, on the fly, the pattern at specific ranges seems to be a bitch. Put them in a mall full of people and the need for a shot Eek

Professional use of the shotgun is, in my opinion, actually more complex than any rifle.



I agree absolutely.

I do alot of shotgun hunting/shooting (non tactical) and have for 30 or so years. I have seen alot of people have problems with the Benelli loading sequence. Even with me coaching and reminding.

I am a civilian and I don't use a shotgun for anything other than hunting/sport shooting, but I have personally fumbled reloads, short stroked pumps, and run out of ammo in a target rich environment and had to resort to a load one shoot one in the "high stress Wink" environment of hunting even with 30+ years of experience. (Damn, has it really been that long Eek)

One thing that I have found in comparison to the AR is there is no "standard" shotgun remedial action drill because there are so many different designs. For example, a double feed (frome the tube)on Brand X cannot be resolved the same as Brand Y, and on Brand Z doesn't even have an effect.

Even though I have much less experience with ARs than I do shotguns I prefer an AR for defensive purposes.

Unless of course we are talking about an Alfred Hithcockesque attack of home invading zombie birds... Big Grin
_________________________ You will learn more with your eyes open and your mouth closed.
quote:
Originally posted by German31:

Usage will be sporting, hunting and self defense.

So, if a automatic shot gun is strictly operated with loads above a certain power level, and it´s a qualitiy gun like the Remington 11-87 or Benelli M2, would you say it is at least as reliable as a properly operated pump gun? What tube fed gun would you recommend?


From a completely civy point of view:

In my experience, a new shooter will "do better" with an semi-auto gun. Other than some brands having a complicated loading sequence there is usually less to do. However, some guns can be finicky about the loads they like. My Benellis never seem to have a problem other than dead primers occasionally. I have had Brownings/Remingtons in the past that would choke on certain loads/brands.

If it were me, I would start with a good Remington 870, Mossberg 500 or Browning BPS (My fav) and see if you even like shooting shotguns. You won't be out as much if you bought a semi and you don't have to worry about getting a gun that won't reliably feed a particular load you like.

If you want to go all the way, Benelli has in my experience been the most reliable, easiest to hit with autoloader that I have ever owned. (I have 3 of them)
_________________________ You will learn more with your eyes open and your mouth closed.
fine, you guys are right. 12g is a superior weapon system for gunfighting. Roll Eyes

if you want to manufacture a specific scenario where for some reason you require only 6 rds with slow awkward reloads and pumps between shots, and you are fighting kwikset deadbolts and bears....and bears in SUVS...then sure, the shotgun fills that niche.

but if i tell you that today you are going to get into a gunfight, (and i give you no other information).......i think you would be remiss to not grab your carbine.

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

I like shotguns, but in NO WAY should that be construed as I prefer shotguns in the anti-personnel role

My go-to gun for the last 15 years has always been a carbine and before that, an SMG. The carbine, and to a lesser extent, sub-gun, is a better general purpose tool for me, working both urban and rural areas.
quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
fine, you guys are right. 12g is a superior weapon system for gunfighting. Roll Eyes

if you want to manufacture a specific scenario where for some reason you require only 6 rds with slow awkward reloads and pumps between shots, and you are fighting kwikset deadbolts and bears....and bears in SUVS...then sure, the shotgun fills that niche.

but if i tell you that today you are going to get into a gunfight, (and i give you no other information).......i think you would be remiss to not grab your carbine.


Man, you are talking to a lot of guys on here that have military or LE experience (or both) with BOTH systems, in a variety of environments and situations, including actually using them in a gunfight,and you are going to roll your eyes at what they have to say? It kinda smacks of "Fine, I'll take my ball and go home, since you don't agree with me".

As I tried to say in my post, different tools work better for different things. I have found, in 19 years, that for MY job as a cop, the shotgun is a much more effective tool than the rifle, and, I made my choice based on that. On a battlefield (been there, too), however, I would choose a rifle. Or, a radio and A-10. See? Different applications.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

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