Why a shotgun?

Well, the other day I just completed my 2nd half 9 hour training day with the SG. We have switched to the Federal 8 Pellet Flight Control Buckshot, and trained, qualified and were issued with it.

Now, with the old Precision buckshot, it was all held together in this plastic shuttle until it hit target, then dispersed. Effective range was 25 yards, but, we trained with it further, and I could nail center mass and head shots all day at 50.

The new flight control is different, but still a good round. It's still 8 pellets, but, they do not stay in the shuttle. We patterned with them so we could understand what the capabilities and limitations were.

5 yards was a slug sized hole.
7 was a bit bigger.
10 opened up a smidge, about 1.5".
15 was about 2.5"
25 was 5.25 - 5.75"
35 got up to about 6.5 - 7"
These were pretty consistent across the board for all of us.

After 35, it really started opening up. I would be very careful on using it at ranges beyond 35 yards if trying to keep all pellets on a human.

Overall, I am happy with the round. I will miss the ability to use the the Precision buckshot with slug-like accuracy, but, that ammo is gone. The key to using the Flight Control, for us, is to remember the limits on the new round for range, and apply it correctly, and, if we need to reach past 25 yards, change to slugs. We were spoiled with the Precision buckshot in that respect, and need to be very cognizant of this new ammos limitations.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

My agency allows officers to carry Colt or Bushmaster 16 inch carbines or Benelli M-1 super 90's loaded with slug. The majority of the Dept carries the Carbine,however the guys who carry the shotgun are balls on accurate with them. To each his own. Like others my personal preference is the carbine,but I still love and will carry a 12 Gauge at least a week straight every month, just to stay proficient.
Do you want to do it "tactically" or fast? "Tactically", you load weak hand with the gun still pointed at the threat axis. Several different techniques. If you want fast, almost all have you turning the shotgun upside down so you can see the loading port. I've seen more techniques using the strong hand as there is less movement and shifting of hands, making it a bit quicker. I can't say I'm well practiced at either.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Here's another

Strong hand loading keeps the support hand on the forend where it normally is and has the argument that it is easier to control the gun during the reloading process because it is closer to the CG, vs holding it by the pistol grip with the shooting hand while having most of the weight out front. That argument has less meaning if you've got good arm and wrist strength and it doesn't matter. I can see the point however if you've got a long barrel and long magazine for competition, or maybe a heavy Surefire forend.

And another style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3E5wtmWCk4

This guy isn't as fast, but I think we need to remember something about these super fast reloads and the videos. They post the ones where everything went perfectly. I don't know any of them, but I'm willing to bet money it doesn't always go smoothly and shells get bobbled when you're holding four of them in your mitt. Especially when you're holding them two x two with two shells in line so you can load two in one push.

Also pay attention to the shotguns used. I'll also bet money that doesn't work well with a Remington 1100 or 1187 because of the lifter and its tab.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
Try to get your guys to try the new Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot load (LE132-1B).


Not a fan of this ammo/ Instead of buying special pussy ammo a quick trip for the barrel to VangComp will provide huge gains in accuracy, smaller patterns and recoil reduction. Under a LEO letter head its 200 bucks, money well spent.

IMHO, the more rounds you have in/on your gauge the better, to a point. Now, not being LEO/high speed, just a regular joe, a "high" cap gun ie:SPX,590A1,FN, 870 with tube,etc.etc. and a side saddle are all a guy will be able to grab should SHTF. So 12-13 rounds max, this makes a 3" capable gun a plus, 3" 4 buck is one devastating round, 3" slugs at 60 yrds would have put Phillips and Mătăsăreanu down.

Would I rather have a carbine, yup. But seeing the current political climate now and traveling to some unfriendly states now and then, an 590A1 with 18" barrel and 6 shot tube with a sidesaddle, I'm pretty happy.

Just my .02 worth.
Member of the Thundering 762mm club.
Ok. My comments are based from a working, street perspective, NOT a competition or go-fast angle. I will preface with, my agency is probably very unique as, our patrol shotgun program is NOT the usual 870 in a car, with 27 cigarette butts in the barrel, and it hasn't been touched in about 3 years.... We are individually issued shotguns, 870, with lights, extended mags, ghost rings, side saddles, viking slings, speed feed (non ammo holding) pistol grips stocks. We use Federal Flite control, and Breneke slugs. To be in the program, you have to volunteer, and attend a 3 day basic course, with 2, annual, 9 hour training/qual days with your tube. I have no doubt that my agency's SG program is unequaled in the US.

The Army video.

I have many problems with this, however, I don't know what their target audience is. Competition or Real World (I would assume competition). Plus, most of the agencies I know of don't run semi SGs, but, rather, pumps.

Run dry? Transition to sidearm and end the threat.

You just shot 2 rounds and you want to reload 8? What the fuck? If you are empty, transition to your secondary. And, who the fuck carries competition reloaders? Not to mention, both of these guys completely take their eyes off the threat while reloading.

Ok. I understand. This is most likely for competition shooters, and is not structured for the actual man-hunters. But, they need to make that clear in the video.

Sorry, but I've run into too many IPSC/Competition shootier assholes that talk a lot of shit about Cops not being able to shoot. These are the same guys not using actual real world tactics , and they are not the guys working the streets on the 2 way range with innocent civilians and an unpredictable environment, and, they have these suped up "race guns" rather than a service weapon. Even with IDPA, it's still not the same.

Roll Eyes

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

+10. All of the shooting sports reward gamesmanship, whatever they say. People are competitive and want to be the best, so guys will game reloads, use of cover, speed of movement, etc. If you decide to treat it as real training against real opponents, the way you would in the real world, you won't p,ace unless you are very, very, good. Maybe not even then.

I haven't shot IDPA for several years now since the matches always seemed to fall on days I was working. But I made a choice to shoot it for training with myself as the only competition. Was I better than the last match? Did I do it right (smart)?

Anyway, you need to decide what you want to do and how you want to do it. Game....or real?

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

AZCOP - leftie here, teaching both left and right to reload - we use side saddles and strong hand on weapon, reload with support hand

Conventional stock - if you need to sustain load - top off tube with chamber already loaded and you can't control the weapon with one hand, OR you don't mind bringing the weapon out of the shoulder

- bring weapon out of shoulder and rotate the toe of the stock into the body as you slide the stock between your arm and side, in this position the shotgun should be on it's side with the ejection port up for a lefty and down for a righty, for a lefty the loading port will be visible with the shells in the sidesaddle below it, for a righty (at least when I do it righthanded) the sidesaddle is on top and you don't have as direct a view of the loading port;

- the shooting grip should be maintained with strong hand, pinch into the side with the upper arm, this should effectively immobilize the stock essentially sideways, slightly under your armpit, for me, the 'pistol grip' of the conventional stock is against the ribs in nearly the same place my mag pistol indexes for close quarter shooting;

- support hand comes off gun and shells are removed one at a time from the sidesaddle and inserted into the mag tube (police shooters need to be able to do this by feel with their head up in the fight - thus one round at a time)

I've found this to be a quick effective way to teach a somewhat tactical sustainment load to officers who don't have the strength to control the shotgun mounted into the shoulder during the reload, it is far superior to alternate non-tactical techniques such as allowing them to rest the butt on their belt with the muzzle elevated as they load.

Additionally, if you don't mind taking the gun out of your shoulder it is pretty quick with moderate practice.

Just one way to do it.
Oh, almost forgot to put in here.

I prefer (and we train) to reload with SG in the shoulder, use support hand to load. We conduct all of our reloading from the side saddle, for now, as there is not a standardized and issued method to carry any extra rounds more than what is in the saddle. If you use a PC or such, you can bring it to traing/qual, or monthly practice sessions, and train with it.

Our program is constantly growing/changing, and, that is just the way we do it. There is, however, more than one way to skin a cat, and, I feel that if there is a viable technique that is tactically sound, and safe, it should be considered.

Don't forget to practice select slug drills. For us, we load initially with 5 Flite control in the tube , and the tube is down one so we can, if need be, push a slug into the tube, then chamber it. We also practice similar when shooting, and just rack out, onto the ground, whatever was in the chamber to get the slug in. Yes, it feels bad leaving a perfectly good round on deck and moving on, but, that's one of the drawbacks to an SG system when you have to keep moving.

I really like my Patrol SG. I chose it over a rifle. It takes a lot of work to be proficient in operation and skills. I find that on our department, those of us with SGs are almost always going in the door as opposed to being on a perimieter with a Patrol rifle. Plus, I really like the option of having that nasty slug to use on vehicle take downs, and to deal with other obstacles.

We had a shooting a couple years back at a shitbird motel. BG got shot with a rifle, a pistol and a shotgun (SG, at the time, was using the choke round). The autopsy showed that the BG died from the SG round. It really did the job. The photos were very educational, and did a lot to reinforce that it is a bad idea to be on the receiving end of an SG.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

The other day, there was a shooting in my precinct. 3 Officers v. one BG. One Officer put 2 slugs, apparently in the BGs pelvis area, the other 2 Officers used their Glocks.

Why the pelvis? I suppose it was just where he managed to target the guy. Apparently, the Officer slipped on the wet grass and fell down, and, the 6'1" 300lb+ suspect came at him with a hunk of rebar. He also had a big-assed fixed blade hunting knife, but was not wielding it. Officer on the ground had his SG, and popped him, from a supine position (from what I have been told). The other 2 Officers fired several rounds each.

DRT. I hear he bled out every drop.

No Officers were wounded or seriously injured.

The BG had been, earlier, holding his father hostage and threatening to kill him. Plus, the BG had several mental disorders, and was a Level 2 sex offender. Even the libs in Seattle are not making a big deal about this one, even though the guy was an ethnic minority, and the Cops were all white.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

quote:
Originally posted by DirtySanchez:
No Officers were wounded or seriously injured.


Outstanding--that's good to hear. There are enough large blood vessels and major bone/joint structures in the pelvis that two slug hits could be effective fight-stoppers...

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Now with more death power!"

 

Joined: 3/22/09     Location:  'nooga

I never thought it would come to this but I guess I and a lot of my co-workers are going to have a choice to make soon for their home defense long gun. A 10rd AR or a 6-8rd pump (not auto) 12ga. As much as I laughed at the VP's incredibly stupid "get a double barrel 12 and fire a couple of blind shots" HD theory, seems I'm not too far behind.

I'm leaning toward the shotty if only because I own a real nice Scattergun Tech custom one and even me keeping an AR, even a 10rd one, is still debatable until the final AWB is hashed out.

In looking around the site, I see the Doc's recommendation of FED LE132-1B is still the ticket so I managed to squeeze some into a huge group ammo buy some of us here got into. Since the law doesn't kick in until 10/1/13, at least I have the summer at the range to see how proficient I can get with the 870. Yea me.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

quote:
Originally posted by DZhitshard:
You don't own a scattergun anymore do you?


As you know there is a difference between "possession" and "ownership".

This is most often brought up in embezzlement cases.

A teller at a bank has "possession" of the money in her till but not "ownership" so taking a few hundies for a night out is larceny by embezzlement.

Now say for example, I own a shotgun. At the time, never thinking I would ever actually need it, I sent it to a dear friend who had become enamored with "3-Gun" matches or what ever the fuck they are called. I did this because, even though I know nothing of said sport, my spidey sense told me he couldn't just go there with 2 guns and call it a day.

By shipping it to him, without payment agreements of any kind because it was never part of the initial bargain, I gave POSSESSION of the shotty to the dear friend but never surrendered legal OWNERSHIP.

So, in sum, the answer to your question posed above is:

Yes, dickface, I STILL own a scattergun.

I remain,

J. Louis Consigliere, Esq.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Get another one and modify it the way the gamers do with a chute on the loading port and the tube/magazines that will let you speed load the magazine with one or two tubes.

https://www.speedshooter.com/p...ct_detail.cfm?ID=TEC



How does the Keltec KSG fit in with CT's bans? It is a pump with two 7rd magazines. Since they are separate magazines, they may slip through a loophole on magazine capacity.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Mexico loaned TX a cannon one time. . .


Razz

I use to think shotties were a dead technology. Some have convinced me otherwise and now I OWN a couple. As for LEO, you got to do what you got to do. I suppose that if they're unused then they're not costing any money. Some day a need may come.

I imagine the KSG is a NOGO from the p@stol grip

Εἷς οἰωνὸς ἄριστος, ἀμύνεσθαι περὶ πάτρης When i am War Czar, we first eliminate the word Marksmanship.... Pat F'n Rogers

The KSG might escape because it is a pump. Depends on how savvy the gun banners are in CT. Since it is relatively new, there aren't a lot in the wild and the ban will address features, it is easy to overlook. They are trying to target "evil" guns, not those target, sport and hunting guns protected by the 2nd Amendment Under that logic, a pump action shotgun with a 7 round magazine should pass the smell test. Even CA doesn't prohibit a pistol grip on a pump shotgun.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
The KSG might escape because it is a pump. Depends on how savvy the gun banners are in CT. Since it is relatively new, there aren't a lot in the wild and the ban will address features, it is easy to overlook. They are trying to target "evil" guns, not those target, sport and hunting guns protected by the 2nd Amendment Under that logic, a pump action shotgun with a 7 round magazine should pass the smell test. Even CA doesn't prohibit a pistol grip on a pump shotgun.


Pumps are fine here. Add anything you want.

The KSG is a NO-GO due to more than a few becoming pump grenades in their owners hands and being brought back in pieces to JOJOs. I'll set a granite boulder to roll down my second floor staircase Indiana Jones style before I would buy one of those POS.

And this just in, semi-auto pistols with magazines contained in their grip AND a threaded barrel are banned. Currently owned pistols with these features must be registered as assault weapons. So, my HK Mk23 and...get ready....my Beretta 21A AWC edition are assault weapons. A Beretta .22!!!!! Fucking kill me.

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
...They are trying to target "evil" guns, not those target, sport and hunting guns protected by the 2nd Amendment ...


I always laugh at that concept. They either do not know about, or choose to ignore, the infamous Cumbria shootings in England. Using "only" a .22 rifle and a double barrel shotgun gun, that loon bat killed 12 and injured 11.

Honestly, I think they ignore it, figuring it'll keep the "sporting" gun owners happy and knowing that they'll be a small niche if/when if comes time to ban those too--"for the children."

Link to wiki write up on the Cumbria shootings, if anyone is curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:
Currently owned pistols with these features must be registered as assault weapons. So, my HK Mk23 and...get ready....my Beretta 21A AWC edition are assault weapons. A Beretta .22!!!!! Fucking kill me.


Blah, blah, blah...

All I hear are reasons to polish the ol' resume and move to a free state. Same advice I give to people that live in the Peoples' Republik of Kalifornia.

As for me, because I have so little 5.56 and it appears that (in WA at least) people aren't hoarding 00B, I've gotten my 870 out and have been practicing reloads while watching TV. I need to get some of those "dummy 12ga rounds" that are popular with CASS shooters. But they're spendy! Anyone here make 12ga dummy loads using their reloading setup and have a few they could sell?

I've also recently mod'd my 870 a bit. It's got a police take-off wood stock set and a rifle sighted 18" barrel. So, it's my "deer gun," I suppose it could be used as a HD gun too.

- - - - -
"You can only reason with a reasonable person." Pat Rogers

quote:
been practicing reloads while watching TV. I need to get some of those "dummy 12ga rounds" that are popular with CASS shooters. But they're spendy!


I hope you are not practicing with live rounds. Just go buy the dummy rounds. It's a lot safer and cheaper than a TV pop. Or cat pop. Or any other pop.

If you are practicing skills at home with a firearm, I strongly recommend you use the model "dry fire practice" rule.

The Four Rules Of Firearm Safety ALWAYS Apply In Dry-Fire Practice



The Four Rules and how they apply to dry-fire practice are:



1. All firearms are always loaded. Keeping this in mind at all times even when your firearm is unloaded impacts the way you handle your firearm and how you will perform not only in preparation for dry-fire practice, but when you are in the act of your dry-fire practice.



2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keeping Rule 1 as your mental guide, it only stands to reason that you would not point your firearm at something you are not willing to to destroy. Choosing what and where to aim during dry-fire should not only be in a appropriate place in the home with an appropriate backstop (see below) but the consideration of neighbors and others in the home is imperative. It must a safe and appropriate target. Only point it at something you could bear to lose if the firearm were loaded.



3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

One of the great values of dry-fire practice is its role in training your mind and body to respond and act in a specific way habitually, instinctively. The only way to do this, is with the correct repetition of the desired action until it becomes the way the muscles respond to the instruction given to it by the mind. Keeping your finger off the trigger until and only until you are sighted to fire, is a key "muscle memory" to attain. The target is what you have placed in the sights of your firearm.



4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

You must always be aware of what is around and behind your target, regardless of what you select for your target during dry-fire practice. The WHO and WHAT that lies behind that target, (not just immediately behind but way behind it) must be considered at all times. Whether preparing to shoot an attacker or the target in your dry-fire practice, this habitual act of thinking and being aware of your surroundings and what is beyond will save lives. Both in the event of a violent attack in which you must fire your firearm to save your life, or in the event that a careless error is made in your dry-fire practice.



Before you get started EACH AND EVERY dry-fire practice time; READ AND FOLLOW THE BELOW



PREPARE:

Remove to the best of your ability anything that would cause you to be distracted. Turn of the TV or IPod, turn off your cell phone and or ringer of the home phone, lock your front door, remove or turn off anything that potentially could cause you to be distracted in any way. If there are others in the home, let them know you are not to be interrupted (except for an emergency of course). If for any reason at anytime during your practice you are interrupted, you must re-start these dry-fire practice safety steps.

UNLOAD:

Unload your firearm and then unload it again! Visually check the cylinder or chamber twice. Use your fingers to manually check the firearm at least two times to ensure that all rounds have been removed. In the case of a revolver, pull the cylinder fully outward and slowly spin the cylinder to check all chambers.

MOVE:

Remove all ammunition from the room. That is correct - take all of the removed rounds and any other ammunition and put it in another room. Select a container, a specific one that you will use each and every time to place the removed ammunition in. Count each round as you place them in this container to verify that each round removed from the cylinder or magazine is accounted for and placed into the container.

SELECT:


Select or prepare your backstop taking into consideration, those that are in the home and those that live nearby. Your interior wall and most exterior walls will not stop a bullet if you for any reason have a accidental discharge. If you do not have a suitable and safe backstop - you should not continue with your dry-fire practice. An appropriate backstop may be the basement wall (keep in mind the risk of ricochet), A stack of bags of sand or telephone books with a minimum of 2 to 3 feet thickness, or a large multi gallon bucket of gravel. There is a new product that is ideal for dry-fire practice, and I am very excited about it. it is called Safedirection. It is a very portable ballistic material "pad" that will absorb an accidental misfire that can be placed anywhere or hung on the wall. If you cannot set up a safe backstop in your home, do not dry-fire.

BEGIN:

Decide the amount of time and the specific skills you will practice. 10 - 15 minutes is recommended. A training check list can be very helpful or one of the online tools linked below. Just before you begin your skill practice, tell yourself out loud "I am starting dry-fire practice". This verbal cue is an important discipline.

FINISH:

Complete your practice by telling yourself out loud "Dry-Fire practice is over." This verbal and audible proclamation help to keep you disciplined and help to prevent you from "trying one more". When you are done, you are done. Remove any dummy rounds and verify your firearm is unloaded. Take down your target and put your dry-fire gear in its proper place. Take a short break between your dry-fire practice and the reloading of your firearm with live ammunition. A pause between these two actions is necessary as you have just focused on pulling the trigger and doing that with confidence that there was no live ammunition in the firearm. You, of course, do not want to get these two actions confused. So this pause is necessary to be safe.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

GES:

If you get snap caps, make sure & get the aluminum ones. The extractor on my 870 broke the rim on the clear plastic ones fairly quickly. A clown shoes move on my part for sure.

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

quote:
Originally posted by DirtySanchez:
quote:
been practicing reloads while watching TV. I need to get some of those "dummy 12ga rounds" that are popular with CASS shooters. But they're spendy!


I hope you are not practicing with live rounds. Just go buy the dummy rounds. It's a lot safer and cheaper than a TV pop. Or cat pop. Or any other pop.


AH! NO, thank you for asking. It's snap caps, but they're light. I'd prefer to have the weighted dummies that I've seen CASS people mention. A guy had some seconds on eBay for $15 for 4. I dunno, seems a bit much for 4 rounds reloaded for weight and recrimped, ya know?

For safety, everything you wrote was true, Gene, and cannot be posted enough.

- - - - -
"You can only reason with a reasonable person." Pat Rogers

quote:
Originally posted by GES:
quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
...They are trying to target "evil" guns, not those target, sport and hunting guns protected by the 2nd Amendment ...


I always laugh at that concept. They either do not know about, or choose to ignore, the infamous Cumbria shootings in England. Using "only" a .22 rifle and a double barrel shotgun gun, that loon bat killed 12 and injured 11.

Honestly, I think they ignore it, figuring it'll keep the "sporting" gun owners happy and knowing that they'll be a small niche if/when if comes time to ban those too--"for the children."

Link to wiki write up on the Cumbria shootings, if anyone is curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:
Currently owned pistols with these features must be registered as assault weapons. So, my HK Mk23 and...get ready....my Beretta 21A AWC edition are assault weapons. A Beretta .22!!!!! Fucking kill me.


Blah, blah, blah...

All I hear are reasons to polish the ol' resume and move to a free state. Same advice I give to people that live in the Peoples' Republik of Kalifornia.



You know what. I'm pretty fucking tired of blah, blah, blah and move to a free state. Perhaps I envy people who have the ability to move on a whim. For the millionth and last time I cannot move, won't move, will NEVER move. And I am not the only one here with the same restrictions.

But I will meet people like you half way. I'll do my part and just stop mentioning how miserable it will be here and then you and others can try to grasp the concept that not every one can run away when something goes south.

Actually, I should thank you. From now on I will make sure that uninformed generalizations such as yours and others will not budge the needle on my personal Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter one Angstrom unit. How's that for a fucking deal?

-------------------------

IT'S A COLT.  THEY'RE LIKE THE HK OF GUNS.

HRH (Ret.) The Most Reverend Consig

Stupidity is not a skillset.

 

 

 

 

 Joined: 28 Nov 2004: 0037hrs        Location: The worst run state in the U.S

Its been awhile since I was stationed in Ct,but I thought SBS were allowed with proper tax etc. If that will still be the case I would go with a 14" 870 or M37. If not shortest legal bbl.

Joined  4/5/03  Location Maine

quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:


You know what. I'm pretty fucking tired of blah, blah, blah and move to a free state. Perhaps I envy people who have the ability to move on a whim. For the millionth and last time I cannot move, won't move, will NEVER move. And I am not the only one here with the same restrictions.

But I will meet people like you half way. I'll do my part and just stop mentioning how miserable it will be here and then you and others can try to grasp the concept that not every one can run away when something goes south.

Actually, I should thank you. From now on I will make sure that uninformed generalizations such as yours and others will not budge the needle on my personal Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter one Angstrom unit. How's that for a fucking deal?


You make a fantastic point, I have consistently read that those who live (or enjoy living) in states with ridiculous legislation, like California, should just pick up and move. Maybe everyone here has a rich uncle or no family to speak of....and that's cool and all....but completely unrealistic for a lot of us.

There are some of us who actually may get stationed some place where the state legislation is pretty anti 2A. Pick up and moving just isn't an option.

I honestly think there should be a thread for those who live in states with strict gun laws. You know, a primary individual weapons thread without AR platforms (gasp). Not because I hate the black rifle but because whether its because of a living situation, cost, or personal choice not everyone owns an AR.

"Sometimes it is not enough to do our best; we must do what is required."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

You won't get a separate forum, but there have been, and is room for threads on the best choices for states behind the socialist curtain. As an example, I have friends in California and relatives in Colorado. So I have to make choices on what I pack when I go to those to states. Used to be just California, but we know how CO is going.

Right now, I'm trying to decide if I pack my M1 Garand, a bolt action or lever action M1892. Handgun will be an M&P45. In part because I don't have 10 rd mags for anything else, but also because it packs the most into a 10rd mag!

With regards to moving, anyone can move. The cost to do so is the rub. Loss of family, loss of income, loss of property, etc. Everyone has to make their priority choices and only in the most extreme examples would I ever tell someone their priorities are screwed up. You have my sympathy. Let us know when the insurrection begins so we can start infiltrating fighters, guns and ammo across the border.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Doug Mitchell:
Time for a storage facility in Texas.


Maine is closer and I volunteer to be the loving caretaker of said guns, as long as ammunition is supplied by the OWNER (see what I did there Wink )

 

 

 

 

Joined:      14 January 2010                Location:  MAINE

quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:
Actually, I should thank you. From now on I will make sure that uninformed generalizations such as yours and others will not budge the needle on my personal Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter one Angstrom unit. How's that for a fucking deal?


Please accept my apologies; I had intended it as humor. No insult or injury meant was intended.

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
With regards to moving, anyone can move. The cost to do so is the rub. Loss of family, loss of income, loss of property, etc. Everyone has to make their priority choices and only in the most extreme examples would I ever tell someone their priorities are screwed up.


My first post-college job was in California. I love the geography of the state, however, the politics were too fruit loops for me. I decided that I could not invest my time there and left that position. I have since declined to pursue potential promotions at my current employer that would have required moves to CA, IL and DC.

I do understand that the logistics for others require different math and arrive at different logical outcomes, however.

quote:
Originally posted by Blackdog:
Brownells sells 12 gauge action proving dummies for $7.99 for five.


Well crap! How had I not noticed these before?! Thanks, Blackdog.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsm...mmies-prod31872.aspx

- - - - -
"You can only reason with a reasonable person." Pat Rogers

For the connoisseur, but capacity limited...

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

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quote:
Originally posted by Consigliere:
I never thought it would come to this but I guess I and a lot of my co-workers are going to have a choice to make soon for their home defense long gun. A 10rd AR or a 6-8rd pump (not auto) 12ga.


I'm kind of in the same boat except it's either a semi auto shotgun with a 7 round max magazine capacity or an AR with 7 round magazines. I'd be interested to hear which people would choose and why.
Personally, I'd go with the shotgun. One round of buck is worth more than one round of 5.56. Though its close because of the speed of reloading and minimal recoil.

Secure your standard capacity stuff though and don't get rid of it. You'll want it when the ban is repealed as un-constitutional or the fighting starts.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

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