Why a shotgun?

quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
fine, you guys are right. 12g is a superior weapon system for gunfighting. Roll Eyes

if you want to manufacture a specific scenario where for some reason you require only 6 rds with slow awkward reloads and pumps between shots, and you are fighting kwikset deadbolts and bears....and bears in SUVS...then sure, the shotgun fills that niche.

but if i tell you that today you are going to get into a gunfight, (and i give you no other information).......i think you would be remiss to not grab your carbine.


Tell you what, Doctor; if you ever actually get in one, come tell everyone all about it once you're legally released to do so. Until then, take your place in the training junky bleachers and take notes. Your reading comprehension is abysmal in this thread, and uncharacteristic. The scenarios mentioned are not manufactured, but actually encountered. As in, personally confronted by those using said weapon to professionally administer their duties. Did you gloss over that, or just get wound up when you got rebuked and miss it entirely?

Now, of course, if the professionals start talking about cavity treatment and bridge work, in which case stomp their stuff with heavy boots.
------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
yes duke, i get that. and i really do understand my rank in the LF foodchain....just below absolute zero.

And i am not arguing that the shotgun has its place...and fills niches that no other system can...

but again, if ALL you know is that its time to fight with a gun, would you grab your shotgun?

i am a student, and i am absolutely here to learn....and there are a lot of BTDT type folks that i have a lot of respect for that share this opinion. They laid out compelling arguements, i listened.....saw the reasoning behind it, and found their reasoning sound.

thats all.


If some of the superheros here on the site have a compelling arguement as to why they prefer shotguns as the go-to fighting weapon, then i am absolutely ready to hear and LISTEN to what they have to say. but i said GO-TO.....as in the generally MOST EFFECTIVE, MOST versatile system to fight with. not the best niche weapon.

please dont construe my opinions here as me pretending to be an SME. I try to introduce scenarios and legitimate arguments based on some modicum of reason. my profile gives you the context in which to take my posts....as coming from a critical thinker, not from the perspective of a professional fighter.

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

quote:
If some of the superheros here on the site have a compelling arguement as to why they prefer shotguns as the go-to fighting weapon, then i am absolutely ready to hear and LISTEN to what they have to say.


I'm no superhero, but I do now have 25+ years of actually carrying and using firearms for work daily. There is no one "go to" firearm for everything. If you need to go through a hardened door with bad guys on the other side and fast moving 4 legged, yappy beasts between you and it well then you need the whole tool box. Each has its place, it's your job to be good with whatever "it" might be.
quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
yes duke, i get that. and i really do understand my rank in the LF foodchain....just below absolute zero.

And i am not arguing that the shotgun has its place...and fills niches that no other system can...

but again, if ALL you know is that its time to fight with a gun, would you grab your shotgun?

i am a student, and i am absolutely here to learn....and there are a lot of BTDT type folks that i have a lot of respect for that share this opinion. They laid out compelling arguements, i listened.....saw the reasoning behind it, and found their reasoning sound.

thats all.


If some of the superheros here on the site have a compelling arguement as to why they prefer shotguns as the go-to fighting weapon, then i am absolutely ready to hear and LISTEN to what they have to say. but i said GO-TO.....as in the generally MOST EFFECTIVE, MOST versatile system to fight with. not the best niche weapon.

please dont construe my opinions here as me pretending to be an SME. I try to introduce scenarios and legitimate arguments based on some modicum of reason. my profile gives you the context in which to take my posts....as coming from a critical thinker, not from the perspective of a professional fighter.


It would seem, speaking from a fellow spectator, that experience gained can help one immediately decide which tool is appropriate for the task at hand. I look at your sterile tray of instruments and see shiny things.

Why does a caddy know to go with the hybrid and not the iron? Experience.

My point was -they actually did give their reasons why selection of a shotgun was legitimate.

I know you meant no harm. But you missed the answers to your questions.
------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
fine, you guys are right. 12g is a superior weapon system for gunfighting. Roll Eyes

if you want to manufacture a specific scenario where for some reason you require only 6 rds with slow awkward reloads and pumps between shots, and you are fighting kwikset deadbolts and bears....and bears in SUVS...then sure, the shotgun fills that niche.

but if i tell you that today you are going to get into a gunfight, (and i give you no other information).......i think you would be remiss to not grab your carbine.


There are some solid responses here from guys who know their shit.

You, on the other hand..... don't necessarily fall into that category.

Stop being full of yourself, spouting off then having to explain yourself.

Seriously. Just because you have have an opinion about something doesn't mean you need to share it with everyone. Chill out with the typing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [url=http://lightfighter.net/eve/logout]Click HERE for the LightFighter Emotional Counseling Department[/url]
but there are some other .mil/le guys on this thread that are telling us the opposite. So who to believe?

i really do suppose it has a LOT to do with personality....and preference. i suppose you could take any swat team, do a survey and a certain percentage would prefer 12g, some would want an mp5, some would want an AR....yet all of them are planning to go to the same gunfight.

i think ill just sit back and read this thread a little more....

post a little less.

always seems the prudent thing to do around here. Wink

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

I carry both in my trunk..actually all 3. I have my AR, a 870 and a Mossberg LL dedicated shotgun. Why do I carry a shotgun? Is it because Im not proficient enough or skilled enough to deploy my AR? No. To be honest, I cant think of a incident where I have deployed my shotgun vs. AR in the last 9 or 10 years. My agency does not issue rifles/shotguns to everyone. Im lucky that I have a dept. issue rifle, shotgun and LL. My personal 870 rides in another patrol officers rack until he can save the money to buy a AR. Im waiting on an upper to comeback so I can issue out another of my personal AR to an officer that only has a shotgun. Now with all that said..back to the question. Why do I carry a shotgun in my trunk?

To be honest, I'm not really sure. Maybe its a comfort thing for me. I know its slower to load, etc. etc. but we also provide support as needed to surrounding agencies. Maybe in my head, I keep it there in case one fo them needs it. Or if one of my officers is off duty and responds to help me, he will have some sort of long gun. Maybe its nostalgia. I train with it, although not as much as my AR. I qualify with it every year, and shoot 3 gun matches with it when possible.
For me, its another tool in the box. One I rarely use but it comforts me being there.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -You have never lived until you have almost died. For those who have fought for it , life has a special flavor the protected will never know.

 

You cant look dignified when your having fun!

 

 Location: Georgia

quote:
Originally posted by ARin:
but there are some other .mil/le guys on this thread that are telling us the opposite. So who to believe?

i really do suppose it has a LOT to do with personality....and preference. i suppose you could take any swat team, do a survey and a certain percentage would prefer 12g, some would want an mp5, some would want an AR....yet all of them are planning to go to the same gunfight.

i think ill just sit back and read this thread a little more....

post a little less.

always seems the prudent thing to do around here. Wink


As has been pointed out - there's no one solid answer. For some in certain applications the shotgun isn't the go-to choice. For others, it is.

There are plenty of justifications for using a shotgun that it remains a viable tool instead of just dismissing it offhand.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [url=http://lightfighter.net/eve/logout]Click HERE for the LightFighter Emotional Counseling Department[/url]
quote:
but if i tell you that today you are going to get into a gunfight, (and i give you no other information).......i think you would be remiss to not grab your carbine.


Every day that I go to work, I have certain things, rituals, if you will, that I do. I check my gear and weapons. I check my uniform. I put on body armor. I look at a couple of very personal visual reminders I have that remind me of how deadly my job is. I say to myself, "You may have to kill someone today". I carry 2 pistols, a long gun, 2 knives, and assorted less lethal tools. I train. I keep a winning mindset.

Every day that I jock up, yes, I PLAN TO GET INTO A GUNFIGHT. For that, I didn't choose a rifle. I chose a shotgun. In the world I navigate, it is the best choice for me.

Is debate and discussion good about this topic good? Hell yes. I'm not the end all, none of us are, and, we have a lot to learn from each other. I'm not going to tell Rb Leatham how to do things at a competetive shoot, but, I also don't expect him to tell me how to do things on the street. Can I learn things from him to improve myself? Yup, sure can. Can equipment he uses, or things that he does in a competitve shoot get me killed if I try it? Yup, sure can. And, the way I do things at work certainly won't help him win a shoot. Will they keep me alive? Yup.

Getting butt-hurt because someone called you out on a radical lane change is not the most mature, or professional, approach to the learning tool we have here at LF.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

DS. definitely not butthurt, i enjoy the debate...because some really good info starts to surface. And to tell the truth, this thread is awesome. There truly is MORE legit, mature information in this thread than any other shotty/carbine debate thread ive ever seen on the internet.

but like i said, its my turn to just listen. You guys REALLY SHOULD be the teachers. and im straying from my narrow lane.

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

That's cool ARin. I'm glad we're all getting back to our mutually supportive direction here. I don't care for pissing contests.

Fuck. Did that shit sound huggy-feely, or what??? I'm going to go powder my vagina, now...

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

quote:
Originally posted by DirtySanchez:
I'm going to go powder my vagina, now...


I just in my mouth a little...

------------------------------

"Its not about shooting, its about fighting with a gun." -Pat Rogers


The answer to 1984 is 1776.

"I prefer evil sits in daylight for all to see rather than be hidden, forgotten about and possibly repeated." -Consigliere
Apparently, I have been proven to be an idiot on the internet......again. I have had the choice in many cases of an AR or a 12ga. and taken the 12 ga. over the AR....in other cases it was the AR. The reality is that I can make either one work in pinch. Not optimally, but get the job done (I was forced to use a 12ga. in many a rifle scenario for a lot of years due to stupid policies).

I just did a demo a couple of months ago with a 14" Benelli M4 (which I had never shot before) and a micro Aimpoint in a hallway of a shoot house belonging to one of the most expereinced team of gunfighters in the world.......many were flat stunned, including my Aimpoint boss. When run competently at speed in typical indoor or car to car ranges, the 12 ga. can be a devastating tool. Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes. They are not a good choice for those who don't get them or understand how to use them. If you only want to learn to use one tool, a carbine is a simpler choice.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

You've brought up a point regarding the nuances of the shotgun and specific scenario types that are worth expounding upon.

1. Experience counts. In the context of this discussion, shooter experience is a huge factor in your choices. Here is a specific scenario that is fairly common for LEO, not so common for MIL. Maybe a nightmare for civilian. A limited number, but multiple opponents in a movement restricted space. We commonly assume that when engaging someone with 5.56mm, you should plan on multiple shots per opponent. It takes some time for him to figure out he's dead. If you take an inexperienced shooter with a pump 12ga and have him engage a hallway with multiple opponents, his time from shot to shot can be expected to be considerably slower than he would be with a lighter recoiling, semi-automatic M4. Take someone like Nyeti, with experience, who knows his stance, running a semi-auto Benelli, and his time, shot to shot, and more importantly, target to target, is probably the same or close to the carbine shot to shot time. So now do the math. He can put 9 hits each on all of his hallway targets faster than he, or most others can put 2 or 3 5.56mm on each.

Admittedly, 1 buckshot ball is not the equivalent of 1 5.56mm. But 9, or even 7 is probably just as effective as 2 or 3 5.56mm.

I'm one of the crowd who prefers the carbine. As a civilian, I think it is more likely going to meet my needs a majority of the time. But I do train with a shotgun and I do know how to use it. If something bumps in my house, I'm more likely grab the rifle, but if I had to grab the shotty, I wouldn't be any less confident of the outcome.

I'd like to win the lottery, but the odds are against it. I consider the odds of having multiple someones in my house that I can't handle with one full (28rds) magazine in the rifle, or 6-8 rds of buckshot in the shotty, to be less than my winning the lottery.

I think the argument of which one is better is arguing apples and oranges. Both have their useful niche and where those niches overlap, either will work. As individuals, we spend our time somewhere in the niches and where you are should determine which one is best for you in the hypothetical, there's a fight but I don't know anything else. Which I have to say, is probably bullshit. I can't think of a plausible scenario where you don't have at least something on which to base your decision. Even if it is only past experience on what you are LIKELY to face.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

As a low speed civilian, I have limited resources to train with. I spend the VAST majority of the time and money I set aside for self defense training and practice on handguns. It’s the firearm that I carry when I leave the home and am most likely to have with me if I need it. If I had to choose one weapon system to excel with, I would choose the handgun. Not because it’s the most lethal, or is superior to any long gun, but because I’m likely to have it with me (not so much the long gun...)

In a lethal encounter, I’m more worried about how I will perform, than which firearm I’m carrying. If I know how to fight, I could be reasonably well served using the shotgun, handgun, or a carbine. If I don’t know how to fight, then I am screwed regardless of what kind of gun I have in my hands.

I recently had some extra money set aside and realized that I really NEEDED to spend some more time learning how to use a long gun in the off chance that I would have to use it. I had to decide if I was going to train with my shotgun or my AR. The AR is a better weapon system IMHO, but I have a lot more time behind the 870. So I signed up a few weeks back for a defensive shotgun class that I am attending this weekend. The 870 excels within the parameters that I am prepared to use it in, and IMHO I will perform better with a weapon system I am comfortable with (the 870), than one that I occasionally use at a static range (the AR).

Is the AR easier to learn how to manipulate that the 870? Most likely. Should I devote more time to it? Maybe… But the truth be told, I (as someone who doesn’t go into harm’s way for a living) would probably be better off spend more time training with the Glock.
Dorsai, you hit the nail on the head. It very much is an apples to oranges argument. Very different tools, very different jobs they do well. In the case of my demo, I put 5 rounds of 00 Buck in a chest before the first empty hit the deck. That is a human body dealing with 45 holes in a short time frame. This is why we always used Benelli's for hall coverage on the team I used to train, and why we used them for over the Scout coverage when our scouts were working mirrors or on their knees working stealth entries. In close quarters....this is what I want. When fighting hoardes at unknown and varying distances with un-limited movement potential....the carbine rules the day.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

I have seen some very individuals who can shoot a shotgun so well, I would hate to face them even if I were armed with an AR at a hundred yards. At one point, since the 870 was the only authorized long gun for my previous agency, I chose to train (at my own expense) and practice shooting the shotgun.

One thing I found about the scattergun - just like most tools, it does have it's place in the scheme of things. But IMHO, it takes a lot of training to be able to effectively load and continue shooting it especially under stress. Plus, it's utility in our schools are limited because we have hallways that are about a hundred yards. There aren't too many LEOs out there who would be able to hit a man-sized target at that distance even with a slug. On a personal level, I found that using a shotgun really aggravates my tennis elbow.

That is when I decided that for most of the situations I would probably face, the carbine is probably the better tool for me. I have yet to meet anyone who would be willing to take a hostage-rescue shot with a shotgun. IMHO, it is also not the best tool to use at extended distance engagements. You'd be hard-pressed to find shotgun rounds that can penetrate soft body armor and pain compliance doesn't always work based on the "target's" frame of mind.

But does this mean I dismiss the shotgun's effectiveness? Heck n!! Even now I have an 870, loaded with 9-pellet Tactical buckshot with slugs in the cuff carrier, sitting next to my AR in my bedroom closet.

Even for LE use, I feel that they should issue both shotgun and carbine to all Patrol Officers because you just never know if your next situation will require the use of a hammer or a screwdriver. JM2CW.
Everything on the pro & con sides has been laid out, I think. Unlike when I came on the job and the shotgun was the only shoulder fired choice for the vast majority of cops, things have changed. Yup, these days the shotgun is getting to be more of a niche weapon.

The initial training curve, especially stance, recoil control and ammunition management, is quite frankly beyond many people.

It may be the only available tool, weapon for people in places like CA. They just need to train on it enough to learn it and the training needs to come from competent sources because the shotgun is not a point & click tool.

Over the years have made the acquaintance of a few of people up in bear country. 12ga Brenneke slug vs 5.56mm? No choice, the slug takes that one. There are other viscous, tenacious, heavily muscled animals that cops encounter. A correctly placed slug consistently does a much better job resolving those issues than do other common cop platforms.

There was a time when - based on comfort level, immediate availability - I'd get the shotgun out far more frequently than I would a rifle. That has changed even though there are specific roles for the shotgun. Not every cop nor every decent human has that option (yes, even now there are still departments that won't field rifles or let one put lights, optics on them).

... and why the bee-boop did Kirby, er, I mean ARin friggin' apologize for asshattery before I got to jump in? Dude, you were so far out o your lane. I do not and would not tell you how to do a root canal, I'd appreciate the same consideration coming back in our direction.

Participation does not equal Proficiency - Mike Pannone. Re-stated "Participation in one area does not equal Proficiency in another!"

 

Joined: November 2002

I guess the reason I'm not a dentist is I would be doing fillings with my 1/4" Milwaukee Impact driver......wouldn't be a tooth left, but that cavity would be gone as well......... Wink I guess its why I love my 12ga.'s.....

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

And to think that our Training & Standards Division told us to stop teaching 12 ga in the academy this year. Hell, (as already said) the pump action 12 gauge was the only long gun we had for years so there was no choice in the matter when it came to 870/500 or ARs.
Fornicate quicumque es non nostrum
for what it's worth. I found doing three gun that my pump gun skills were wanting at best. Frown I handled it well on the range but once under stress, fumbling occurred, proper sight picture could be lost(especially at night).
I had wanted a Saiga and my wife had gotten me one at Christmas. I did a basic conversion, and wow. It is not quite as flexible as a pump gun, at least not without the magwell, but I can run that gun almost as well as my carbine. And in competition, I score better in shotgun, and have much better times than pump guys even when we have to change from buck to slug and back.
I guess what i'm getting at is I see that platform as a way to mitigate the learning curve while still offering a 12 gauge platform, and with a little work, the ammo change isn't much slower.

"There's no moral order. There is only this, Can my violence conquer your violence?"

quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:
My point here is not to be a dick (even though it may come off that way Wink ), my point is that I can find less than optimal situations for any system. It's why I maintain proficiency with several tools so that I can make the best selection for the situation at hand or what best fits my immediate needs. In my home, in SoCal, that is a Vang Comp 870. Sure, I have a fully equipped AR sitting next to it, but the last time i had to grab a long gun due to circumstances that warranted it...it was the 870. Other times, it may not be.


Would you please describe your though process leading to which one you would grab?
From my experience in iraq issue buckshot is only so so past 25 yards, and inside 25 yards 1 center mass shot from a 556 is as effective as one shot of buckshot to centermass. Id think flight control buckshot could double that. A slug kicks ass out to 100. Is it better than a 5 round burst from my SAW? No not really. But its not worse and i never needed a second slug, pity they were hard to find.

One thing I think a shotgun trumps a 556 carbine is in really thick woods and swamps. Those tiny bullets dont stand up to small brush. Now there is nothing that can completly ignore the errant twig but slugs are better and with 9 pellets in buck some are bound to get through.

I realize that hunting experience doesnt directly correlate to fighting but ive switched to using a shotgun on my cull hunts. I shoot deer year round and while 556 works fine on shots in the open, most arent and slugs work better in the brush. Id love to get a deer at 50 yards this year with flight control buck. I get 12-15" patterns at that range.

I think people get caught up in weapons systems and which one is best. This argument goes back to feudal times. Read the "book of 5 rings" to get on the sword bashing band wagon.

If you are a warrior you should beable to pick up an AK, AR, 590, 1911 and finish the mission. Not one is best for all situations.
Lava Dog till I die. "That is, we should be constantly training for war." Pat Rogers
As my penance and in an effort to show solidarity with my shotgun wielding brothers, my avatar has been changed to a picture of me attempting to be effective with the gauge. Im gonna have to buy the new magpul vid.

please accept my humble offering

____________________________ Face-shooting cavity creeps since 2006 F$%# YOOOOU DORPHIN AND WHAAAAAALE!!!!!

The Federal Precision buckshot (we started with the Billings Choke round)is quite a bit different from standard 00. There is one less pellet, but, they are all contained in this plastic shuttle. It stays together, like a slug, until it hits target, then these little wings pop out and allow the shot to start spreading. We qualify with this round out to 25 yards, and I have no problem with headshots at that range. We train with it out to 50. We use our slugs out to 50 on quals, and train out to 100. No problems there, either.

I'd like to try a semi-auto shotgun, or, a couple of different types, but, we'll never change from the 870, unless the Magic-Funding-Fairy gives us all Bennellis...

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

quote:
Originally posted by Virgil:
My only reason for asking is I have been trying vainly to find a firearm that will have a positive effect on say a bear, but wont discourage the user from familiarizing himself or herself with the weapon.


Here is one (narrow) area that the slide-action shotgun's sporting/tactical versatility shines:

What I did was to buy a Vang-Comped Mossberg 590A1 (18.5", not 20") with ghost-ring sights. I put on the short Speedfeed stock, a Surefire forend, and a sidesaddle.

After sighting-in with slugs and patterning, I discovered that the gun patterned (no surprise) to point of aim, and not high like many sporting/competition guns do.

I shoot wobble trap and 16-yard trap with it; when the club or puller allows it, I'll load 5 and run the station from low gun with the targets coming out either at "report" (send another target upon the shooter firing) or as fast as they will issue. Some machines can do doubles, which are an extra challenge...

I always load from the sidesaddle, using my non-dominant hand, and use low-brass target loads (so I can shoot for a whole afternoon if I feel like it, not to mention that many ranges have load limitations).

The genteel sporting crowd may look at you askance at first, but if you handle your gun safely and learn to shoot well, the dividends are TREMENDOUS when it comes to smoothness in handling the shotgun when it matters. No magic here: just consider the effect of chamber-loading from your sidesaddle, firing, and racking the slide 100 times in a day, with others watching and waiting for you to do something unsafe. Would you ever think of doing that with buckshot or slugs?

Having said that, I agree with most here that the shotgun (and subgun, for that matter) are specialty tools that excel within a narrow scope of application that you can either control or predict. Outside of those circumstances, a more general tool is more broadly capable...

Dr. J
When I was first sworn in (about 6 years ago), my agency only had shotguns for long guns. Before I finished my first year, we were allowed to purchase rifles for use and I did so. At my current agency, we don't even own lethal shotgun ammo. All of our cars have an 870 in them but we are restricted to using Super Socks. Each car has about 10 less lethal rounds in the car (six on the gun and 4-6 in the glove box).

The general consensus amongst LE agencies in my area is that shotguns are nearly all restricted to less lethal delivery systems only. I can think of less than a handful of the 25+ agencies in my county who keep lethal ammo for their shotties on hand. I am a little frustrated by this.

I prefer my AR for nearly any anti-personnel roles, especially because I work in a very urban environment with most of our population living in apartments or closely packed homes and trailers. We use 60gr TAP as our issue ammo, which is decent for shooting people. It frankly sucks for barrier penetration, specifically cars. I've found myself deploying my AR on high-risk stops about 75% of the time and my pistol the rest. If I'm not a designated cuffer, I go for the rifle. Having said that, I definitely understand that an AR (especially with our issued ammo) is not an ideal solution to shooting someone inside a vehicle. I REALLY wish I had a 14" 870 or Benelli M1 with slugs for high risk stops.

Like Dirty Sanchez said, a shotgun, when properly equipped is a great weapon for LE use still. I found a very strong preference for the Speed Feed pistol gripped shotgun stocks with the short pull length on an 870. I also really prefer the ghost right sights on an 870 though can make do with the factory rifle sights, a bead is weak-sauce. I'd really like to try out the new XS shotgun sights. If I had to give up my rifle for an 870 I would do it, provided I was allowed to accessorize the 870 simliar to how I have with my rifle.

I don't think a shotgun or a rifle are mutually excluding for LE use. Both have their place, a shotgun is extremely versatile, but definitely not the best in any of its roles. It does great at close range anti-people uses, but an AR would be my preference. It also does great at shooting through barriers (with slugs), but I'd rather have a semi-auto 7.62. The shottie can also do good work with less lethal rounds but i'd prefer a 37mm or 40mm multi-launcher.
I keep an 870 handy at home because, as others have said better than me, it works very well in the niche that I would apply it. Back in my day in the Navy we trained on 870s, 1911s and M14s (though the kids now use SBS 590s, M9s and M16s). Because of this, the 1911 and 870--both rather archaic platforms compared to the wizbang new stuff--feels very comfortable to me. I have an "innocent looking" 870 with police woodstocks and a tube extension and side saddle along with two "mean looking" Mossbergs (USMC-type 590 w/ GR sights and a Breacher with Knoxx M4-style stock that looks mall ninja but shoots decently). I'd trust any and all of these, but would rather be in front of a jury having deployed the 870.

I'll add to the my recount of my uncle's experience in the brown water Navy of Viet Nam (USS Ashville-class gun boat, if anyone cares). They did a lot of close range interdictions and his comment is "the 12ga puts people down--now--even with an off-center hit arms and legs are taken off or are left completely useless--they can't fight anymore." His primary was an 870 (though an M16 was available), backed up by 2 .38 revolvers. Or he was on the twin .50s, another reported fight stopper. My point is, from his first hand experience to me, the 12ga stops fights at close ranges.

I hope I didn't stray too far from my lane... basically, I trust the 12ga and have more experience with it than my AR. I believe that it will stop a fight at the ranges that I would deploy it at. Also, I'll be looking into getting some Federal Precision buckshot based on DS's comments--thanks for the heads up!

- - - - -
"You can only reason with a reasonable person." Pat Rogers

quote:
the twin .50s, another reported fight stopper.



Um, dude. You just went all British on us and made the understatement of the year... Big Grin

Rumor has it that Federal is going to stop making the Precision Buckshot, and, Billings is going to start making it again. It started as the Billings Precision Choke Round, then, Federal picked it up. I really have a lot of confidence in that round.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

Tool in a toolbox.

Nyeti pretty much covered it for me. I often grab a 870 for out of state road trips for a couple of reasons.

"For home defense they are far more "acceptable" to L/E responders, District Attorney's, the media and juries.....if you think that "doesn't matter" and you have the "right" to use whatever you want......cool, go ahead and do what you want.........my experience says you will not enjoy the aftermath of shooting some guy in your living room with your tricked out SBR'd AR. If you live in a restricted state.......you can times my last comment by ten."

Lot of wisdom there. Also if my shotgun gets stolen out of my truck I'm only out $200.
quote:
Originally posted by DirtySanchez:
Um, dude. You just went all British on us and made the understatement of the year... Big Grin


To go along with that statement, I've been told that the B-1B with full 'burners going is mildly noisy... Wink

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Now with more death power!"

 

Joined: 3/22/09     Location:  'nooga

Look to people's experiance and backround for an insight in to what thier preferance will be. While I know the shotgun might be the better tool for the particular job at hand, you know what I would reach for? Carbine, each and every time. Why? Becuase I relevant experiance with said weapon system. I'd take a pistol over the shotgun in some situations becuase again, relative experiance and familiarity. All my job revolves are carbine's or rifle's in some shape or fashion and to a lesser extent pistols. While I understand how to use a shotgun I could not confidently say I could run one well enough to feel comfortable. I still want a nice Vang Comp 870 for no other reason then to have a solid, accurate, and reliable scattergun (or slug gun) when the situation calls for it. I'm also all about rounding out my moderate skills with a carbine, my less then novice worthy pistol skills, and my child like shotgun abilities.

I bet if you ask those that have more LEO experiance or .mil MP/AFSF experiance they might tend to migrate towards the shotty for obvious reasons. Thats out of my lane but just a speculation.

Cheers, Matt

"It is easy to go down into Hell; night and day, the gates of dark Death stand wide; but to climb back again, to retrace one's steps to the upper air - there's the rub, the task."    Publius Vergilius Maro, The Aeneid

quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:
Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes. They are not a good choice for those who don't get them or understand how to use them. If you only want to learn to use one tool, a carbine is a simpler choice.[MY emphasis not nyeti's]


Very good points guys. Good points.


You CAN run a shotgun well, I just know what the "average guy" thinks is "adequate" training and adequate proficiency; and it makes my skin crawl whenever I see it.... There are so many guys who don't know what they don't know.... And THAT is a characteristic that will kill you in combat.

"It is well that war is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee's remark to Longstreet at Fredericksburg in 1862

quote:
Originally posted by SF18CW9:
quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:
Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes. They are not a good choice for those who don't get them or understand how to use them. If you only want to learn to use one tool, a carbine is a simpler choice.[MY emphasis not nyeti's]


Very good points guys. Good points.


You CAN run a shotgun well, I just know what the "average guy" thinks is "adequate" training and adequate proficiency; and it makes my skin crawl whenever I see it.... There are so many guys who don't know what they don't know.... And THAT is a characteristic that will kill you in combat.


And this is the theory I subscribe to... Nyeti , you have the time and experience in and can run a shotgun , but the average guy who owns a blued 870 Wingmaster with a 5 shot tube and 28" vent rib barrel and screw in chokes is not even in the parking lot across the street from the ball park....

No slam on LEO's but I'm sure you guys know there are a high percentage of your brothers who don't want to put the time into a shotgun vs. a patrol rifle, and the learning curves between the two are pretty different.
quote:
Originally posted by RyanUSMC:
I think people get caught up in weapons systems and which one is best....

If you are a warrior you should beable [sic] to pick up an AK, AR, 590, 1911 and finish the mission. ...


Dude, you've been reading too many books or watching too many movies. That last little bit about picking up basically "any" weapon and finishing the mission sounds cool as hell, but isn't too helpful ... or realistic.

"It is well that war is so terrible; we would grow too fond of it." Robert E. Lee's remark to Longstreet at Fredericksburg in 1862

quote:
Originally posted by RyanUSMC:
If you are a warrior, you should be able to pick up an AK, AR, 590, 1911 and finish any weapon you own...and finish the mission. Not one is best for all situations.


Fixed it for you.

" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " -George Orwell Celer, Silens, Mortalitas "Swift, Silent, Deadly"

One of the guys in my precinct is switching back to a shotgun from his patrol rifle. He's used both systems in our department, and, prefers the shotgun. We can't have both. I wish we had more of both, but, our dept won't let us buy our own, and, because of the budget, can't currently buy new guns. Shame.

As I said before, I'm not sure what ammo the rifle guys are using, but, that 60 gr. TAP is ringing a bell.

- Gene

____ "Fight like you're the third monkey trying to get on Noah's Ark...".

____ "If you can't do something smart, do something right." - Jayne Cobb

____ " Pull your huggies up, shut the fuck up." - gruntpain

 

Joined: 4/28/08   Location:  Seattle

 

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