A while back i worked at a place where the facilities staff held a Nov Turkey shoot.


They all broke out their 28" and longer guns with specially brewed ammo.
We brought our 14.5" Vang guns loaded with Wally Wold #8 shot.
We always won.

They thought longer barrels equalled longer range as well.

A police gun should probably be around 14" as little is gained with a long barrel
The best factory buckshot pattern I have ever seen was shot with Speer Lawman 00 out of a factory 14" 870. Two officer with the combos were shooting wad size patterns from contact to 25 yards. If I remember right, we had them shot at 50 and the pattern was just starting to exit the silhouette.

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"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons." -Gen. Mac Arthur

"No good decision was ever made in a swivel chair." -Gen. George S. Patton

Joined: April 4, 2008           Location: Indiana

quote:
A police gun should probably be around 14" as little is gained with a long barrel


This, if at all possible.

A short standard stock and a 14" barrel on a 590 is a great thing to have available.

If I could have done so all of my agency shotguns would have been swapped out for the 14" model with the youth or "Cadet" stocks.

BTW, never put a pistol grip stock on a Mossberg, it's OK with the Remingtons because of the safety location, but that doesn't work with a Mossy, stick with a standard style stock, works just fine.

______________________________________________________________________

"...because without beer, things do not seem to go as well."

Diary of Brother Epp, Capuchin monastery Munjor, Kansas 1902 ___________________________

если не я тогда, кто?

___________________________

"Suppressive fire is best achieved by ploughing bullets into the dirtbag's skull. That is really suppressive." 'Headhunter' quote from TPI forum.

 

I am the owner of Agile Training and Consulting

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
A shotgun barrel over 18 or 19" in length doesn't add any velocity to the shot. The powders used are essentially pistol powders and they've completed their combustion in that length. What a longer barrel does is give you a longer sighting plane, which contributes to better accuracy at a longer range, and a degree of stability to the swing of the barrel when tracking a moving target. That is good for game, but not for people who will move erratically and like to hang out in structures that make long barrels a detriment.

An 18" riot gun will have the same range and shot pattern as your longer barrel, assuming the proper balance of choke and ammunition. Using it to shoot clays is just honing the tool and one part of the skill set.


And from a purely hunting/skeet shooting standpoint, the longer barrel moves the "BOOM" further away from the ears of the the shooter and hunting buddies who might not invite you back. Big Grin
_________________________ You will learn more with your eyes open and your mouth closed.
quote:
Originally posted by Pat _Rogers:
That may be of use on a hunting forum, but here it has no meaning.

Zero..


My apologies Pat.

Thanks for the correction.

Back into my lane now.
_________________________ You will learn more with your eyes open and your mouth closed.
Curious as to the preferred sighting system.

The only police issue shotguns I've got to play with as SAPS issue Berettas that are "less lethal only", using rubber batton rounds. They were all bead sighted.

All the "police style" shotguns you see for sale have rifle type sights on them.

And now you have wonderful red dot sights....

What's the preffered "combat" shotgun sight?

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

Location Cape Town, South Africa

 

My preference would be for a T-1 (which raises the question of what mounting system to use to get the T-1 onto an 870). Followed closely by a ghost ring set up, specifically those originally designed by Scattergun Technologies.

I place rifle sights significantly further behind the ghost rings based on my personal experience with having used shotguns on duty and in training. The bead sight is even further behind the rifle sights. Having said that, I've used and qualified with all 3 types of shotgun irons and have kept 100% qual scores irrespective of the sight system chosen. I do feel the ghost rings are faster and allow for more precision.

Since our shotguns are currently LL only, I don't see the need to drop another $500 for a T-1 to simply launch Super Socks, which are rarely used. We've only had 1 LL shotgun deployment in over 5 years of having them.
quote:
Originally posted by weaver1032:
My preference would be for a T-1 (which raises the question of what mounting system to use to get the T-1 onto an 870). Followed closely by a ghost ring set up, specifically those originally designed by Scattergun Technologies.

I place rifle sights significantly further behind the ghost rings based on my personal experience with having used shotguns on duty and in training. The bead sight is even further behind the rifle sights. Having said that, I've used and qualified with all 3 types of shotgun irons and have kept 100% qual scores irrespective of the sight system chosen. I do feel the ghost rings are faster and allow for more precision.

Since our shotguns are currently LL only, I don't see the need to drop another $500 for a T-1 to simply launch Super Socks, which are rarely used. We've only had 1 LL shotgun deployment in over 5 years of having them.


Our 870's get Trijicon Reflex sights, the old version.

Problem is, they don't seem to stand up to the use and abuse. At one point out of 35 of them in my armory, 32 were broken or not functioning properly. Everything from the dot completely vanishing, to the dot being about 10x too big, to zeroing screw stripping out, to stuff getting bent/broken just from getting knocked around a bit.

Also didn't work to well at night (when they were used the most) or brightly lit areas, or shooting from a dark area to a brightly lit area (like the beam of a spotlight)

I can't speak for the newer ones (they look a bit beefier) but I would give the Reflex sights a healthy thumbs down.

Edit: There is a trijicon ramp sight up front, which lines up nicely with the flat part on top of the reciever. I use that 9 times out of 10
And next time that Chief gives you shit, look him square in the eye and say "These aren't wrinkles in my uniform, they are waves. I'm an underway motherfucker." Then knock some salt at him and ask where his Cuttermans Pin is. - MKC L.
I have long had an idea for the shotgun optic and it tugs at me like that hot redhead with the short skirt. You know it's going to be bad news down the road, but damn you want it now.

The eotech has a 65moa ring. That equates to about a bit over 16" at 25 yds. I'd love to calibrate the choke to match that so you could just about insure that your shot column/spread matches the ring out to 25 yds or so.

The unreliability of the eotech, especially when combined with 12ga recoil, means Aimpoint only. I've run one with a Mesa Tactical sidesaddle/optic rail combo and the One Shot Tactical pistol grip adapter. They line up beautifully, i.e cheek on the stock and the dot is right there. I can't think of anything faster (that you can depend on!).

I'd stay away from the mini red-dots such as the Dokter, Burris, etc. They self adjust the brightness of the dot to ambient light, which is a problem when shooting from dark to light. Which is the situation you face when lighting someone up at night. Your sight is still in the dark and has a dim dot, but your eyes are dilated for someone in bright light and it is just too difficult and slow to perceive that little red dot. With some sights, it might actually be impossible. Only an adjustable red dot that allows you to set the intensity will work. Right now, only the Aimpoint has the combination of durability, reliability and battery life to be a feasible option.

I hate like hell spending $400-700 per optic, per long gun, but I just don't see any other choice. So I keep my eye on the boards for people who are upgrading from a Comp M3 to an M4 or T1, or if they are just dumb, an eotech.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
I have long had an idea for the shotgun optic and it tugs at me like that hot redhead with the short skirt. You know it's going to be bad news down the road, but damn you want it now.

The eotech has a 65moa ring. That equates to about a bit over 16" at 25 yds. I'd love to calibrate the choke to match that so you could just about insure that your shot column/spread matches the ring out to 25 yds or so.

The unreliability of the eotech, especially when combined with 12ga recoil, means Aimpoint only. I've run one with a Mesa Tactical sidesaddle/optic rail combo and the One Shot Tactical pistol grip adapter. They line up beautifully, i.e cheek on the stock and the dot is right there. I can't think of anything faster (that you can depend on!).

I'd stay away from the mini red-dots such as the Dokter, Burris, etc. They self adjust the brightness of the dot to ambient light, which is a problem when shooting from dark to light. Which is the situation you face when lighting someone up at night. Your sight is still in the dark and has a dim dot, but your eyes are dilated for someone in bright light and it is just too difficult and slow to perceive that little red dot. With some sights, it might actually be impossible. Only an adjustable red dot that allows you to set the intensity will work. Right now, only the Aimpoint has the combination of durability, reliability and battery life to be a feasible option.

I hate like hell spending $400-700 per optic, per long gun, but I just don't see any other choice. So I keep my eye on the boards for people who are upgrading from a Comp M3 to an M4 or T1, or if they are just dumb, an eotech.


Dorsai:

I thought that since the newer generation Eotech's re-oriented the batteries perpendicular to the sight that recoil was no longer an issue. Is that not the case?

"Number 7 was interesting. My third leadoff homer in three games. I had used the same bat for the first two homers. I had planned to keep using that bat until I broke it. But while I was on deck, I put it back & took out another bat. You want to know that it's you and not the bat."- Brady Anderson, Baltimore Orioles.

 

Home: Eugene, OR. USA

In very close quarters, beads are fast. I have one gun set up with vent rib barrels and beads and they work great, especially with buck or slug in close. They suck after about 30 yards.

Ghost rings are my favorite iron sight for a "do it all" iron. Almost as fast as a bead in close, but you can actually hit stuff out to a 100 yards.

Rifle sights. Not a fan; however, I am very interested in trying the X/S replacement sights for these. I think having a 870 set up like a big game safari rifle might be very viable.

Aimpoint Micro........Its like cheating....which is why I run one . I have an older full house Vang Gun that Hans custom built for me and the head of our firearms program at work. This gun has both ghost rings and a rail that all co-witness with a Micro. Its my primary home gun.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Speaking of sights is anyone familiar with the 3-dot type sights that Mossberg is putting on NYPD's guns? Are there similar sight systems on the aftermarket?


Ek

Personally, I'm interested in keeping other people from building Utopia, because the more you believe you can create heaven on earth the more likely you are to set up guillotines in the public square to hasten the process. -- James Lileks

"Be the lack of Bullshit you wish to see in the world around you."

Joined: 8/12/05 6:56 PM                        Location: Oklahoma (not by choice)

quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:
Rifle sights. Not a fan; however, I am very interested in trying the X/S replacement sights for these. I think having a 870 set up like a big game safari rifle might be very viable.


This is exactly why I replaced my 18" plain bead barrel with an 18" smooth bore rifle sighted barrel. Once I spotted the Ashley sights for Remington rifle sighted barrels, my 870's sight plans changed from GRs to "house safari gun." If the budget/professional justification could get the Aimport micro through past the Manager of Responsible Spending, I would definetly consider combining the two sight systems as it seems to be a best of everything combo.

- - - - -
"You can only reason with a reasonable person." Pat Rogers

The XPS is supposed to be the solution to the battery compartment issue, but that isn't the only problem. I'll wait a couple of years and see how the XPS pans out. I don't like shelling out a couple of hundred $$$ and then find out it doesn't work. I have a problem selling something that I know is defective.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

EK, I handled a 590 at Cabela's the other day when black_waters was rifle shopping that would seem to be the same system, it was the first Mossberg so equipped i'd seen.

Kind of a split-the-diff between conventional Remington-style rifle sights (for me, useless) and ghost rings. They were quick to see snapping the gun to the shoulder, but I don't know anyone else making something like that i can think of.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So low speed, i'm in Park.

"I could stand to hear a little more.." Jayne

Training is brief. Death is forever. PAY ATTENTION.

Joined: 6/14/03 1:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Dorsai:
I have long had an idea for the shotgun optic and it tugs at me like that hot redhead with the short skirt. You know it's going to be bad news down the road, but damn you want it now.

The eotech has a 65moa ring. That equates to about a bit over 16" at 25 yds. I'd love to calibrate the choke to match that so you could just about insure that your shot column/spread matches the ring out to 25 yds or so.

The unreliability of the eotech, especially when combined with 12ga recoil, means Aimpoint only. I've run one with a Mesa Tactical sidesaddle/optic rail combo and the One Shot Tactical pistol grip adapter. They line up beautifully, i.e cheek on the stock and the dot is right there. I can't think of anything faster (that you can depend on!).

I'd stay away from the mini red-dots such as the Dokter, Burris, etc. They self adjust the brightness of the dot to ambient light, which is a problem when shooting from dark to light. Which is the situation you face when lighting someone up at night. Your sight is still in the dark and has a dim dot, but your eyes are dilated for someone in bright light and it is just too difficult and slow to perceive that little red dot. With some sights, it might actually be impossible. Only an adjustable red dot that allows you to set the intensity will work. Right now, only the Aimpoint has the combination of durability, reliability and battery life to be a feasible option.

I hate like hell spending $400-700 per optic, per long gun, but I just don't see any other choice. So I keep my eye on the boards for people who are upgrading from a Comp M3 to an M4 or T1, or if they are just dumb, an eotech.


A guy at our PD just put an Aimpoint on his shotgun. We issue 870s, and put the knoxx stocks on them several months back (still no problems - holding our collective breaths). I fell in love with the aimpoint on the 870 immediately. It's a C3 he can't go swimming with it, but it really works well. I handled it just a few days ago - wish I had snapped a pic.


This is our current duty shotgun setup taken today at the range during quals. Just imagine an Aimpoint on top. They work.

Overall, on shotguns I'm just not a huge fan except in a handfull of circumstances. Shooting charging dogs - great with shotguns. Putting down deer that have been hit by a car - great. Defending the hallway that leads to my room - super. Knocking a big hole in anything and having great penetration - good stuff.

The problem is getting people to learn how to run them well with as little training as they get on them each year. Even older guys - ones who claim to be "shotgun guys" - fuck up loading, unloading, and short-stroke them on occasion. Shotguns draw lots of blood on the square range during training: fingers pinched in the slide, cut on the metal during reloads, lips and noses smacked because of hurried or improper positions along with heavy recoil. Select-a-slug drills take too long - most bad guys won't stay still for you that long. Plus, even with short stocks, they're too long to go inside with (where they excel at making big holes in people). I'd love it if we had something like 14" bbls - but that costs money.

I don't carry one on patrol anymore, and could any time I wanted. I do keep one by the bed for static defense. I just like to keep plugging along with my AR. But in certain circumstances the shotty can be just the tool for the job. I just limit my tools to the ones I think I'll need most.

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It's easy to make assumptions about puppies strapped to missiles, but good science requires research.

 

Joined: 12-2005          Location: Central OK

quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:

Rifle sights. Not a fan; however, I am very interested in trying the X/S replacement sights for these. I think having a 870 set up like a big game safari rifle might be very viable.


I have big dots on my rifle sighted 870. They are tits. Super fast up close and reasonably accurate at longer ranges with slugs.
I hate to bring this up..........I'm thinking we may need to do an EAG or Lightfighter shotgun.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Very interesting thread.

I never personally felt comfortable with the shotgun in LE except in building clearing or situations where it was probable the ranges would be short. I never saw patterns from traditional buckshot loads that I felt comfortable with much past 15-18 yds, that just isn't a whole lot of range. Throw in the odd pellet flier that goes way wide in an urban area to make me feel uneasy.

The new Federal FC wads have me rethinking the role of a shotgun. The idea of effective patterns out to 40-50 yds have me looking for another HD shotgun that I can have handy while working on the farm and have the ability to reach likely threats where a rifle/carbine would have previously been needed. I see the shotgun as giving me more thump up close while giving a margin of error at distance/poor light.

The accuracy of some 870s suffer because of bad tolerances between the receiver/barrel
and barrel/mag tube. I've played with some reducing barrel play and found it to improve accuracy. Might be a consideration with the new buckshot loads and not just slugs.
quote:
Originally posted by nyeti:
I hate to bring this up..........I'm thinking we may need to do an EAG or Lightfighter shotgun.


I agree! This has been a great thread covering many aspects of the shotgun from suitability to setting one up. Unfortunately we have only skimmed the knowledge floating around this forum. Admittedly, I am bummed to hear about the Trijicon Reflex sights and the Spec Ops Knoxx Stock failing, my 870 is setup this way. However, this is the type of information guys like me need before we spend our hard earned cash on defense of the homestead.

When I was in the Navy I always looked forward to the range quals, specifically afterwards when the base SME's were there for the shotgun. Their demonstrations were fantastic and some of the principles of bouncing 00 shot off the ground, under cars, down passageways gave some insight as to the complete chaos one should anticipate on the receiving end. For it's stupid simplicity, reliability and forgiveness of aim in low light I too have one setup for home defense. The concept behind the Knoxx Stock was to provide near 20-gauge recoil for my wife with the option of shooting larger magnum slugs (I have a few in the sling), although loaded with adrenaline she likely wouldn't notice the difference anyways. That being said I would not want to go up against her as an intruder armed with a handgun. If 8 in the gun, 4 in the sling and 5 or 6 on the stock can't defend her while I am away, then the intruder has come to kill, not to just steal.

Several guys have mentioned the legality of defending a home with an assault weapon in places like California. AW more or less fall into three categories: the rifle is either a registered AW (purchased before 2000), a bastardized AW (fixed magazine) to include a bullet button and limited 10-round magazine or it's an unregistered AW. Option two severally limits your capabilities and the last will get you into felon status even if found not guilty for homicide (just envision how the DA looking to promote will try to stack the jury in a high profile case where an evil AW is used). For guys like us we are limited to things like M1A Socom IIs, for their lack of a pistol grip, a pistol or a shotgun. The M1A IMHO is way too powerful for homes made of sheetrock and stucco located in close proximity to one another. This leaves the pistol and shotgun as likely candidates (not the best choice but available). For these reasons alone, I'd like to see a dedicated shotgun thread.
Wow, 4 pages, and no-one has seriously mentioned...
-you dont need to aim
-just rack it, and they'll run away
-you cant miss
-hall/trench/alley broom/sweeper
-one stop shots

Amazing! try that at some other sites!

Not sure I can add much, but thats never stopped me before...

Twice, I've been issued a shotgun, an 11-87, and an 870, three times if you count the breaching gun, I'm issued now. I've been trained by a federal agency and private security company, both as a long gun and breaching tool.

At one former employer, we were issued 11-87's, that was one of three long guns we had, depending on post.
The 11-87 was issued for indoor posts, loaded with 00buck, about 24 rounds of additional 00buck, and only 5 rounds of slugs.
Problem, most places inside that building afforded shots, well over 50 mtrs, many of 100 or more. Not to mention multiple places with cover, that would require precision fire on the adversary.
Only after an updated vulnerability assesment, where it was found a shotgun armed officer, may have to engage an adversary across, what was reported to be the largest fuel pool in the country, did we give that officer a car-15.
Point, just because its inside, doesnt mean you wont need the precision and range of a carbine.

The other facility, issued 870's, because we were thought to be low threat/priority, and generally, not important. Regardless of the outside ranges, we would be expected to engage adversaries. After 9/11, and an appropriate VA, we got AR's, crappy ones, but AR's non the less.

Versatility is somewhat over rated. While Nyeti, has been able to deploy his shotgun with a variety of ammo and missions, thats rarely the case these days, most have dedicated breaching and less lethal weapons. Most average homeowners aren't going to need the flamethrower rounds either.
With a carbine, I can engage you from 0 meteres to about 250, w/o changing my point of aim, let alone the ammo in the gun. Thats my kind of versatility.
If your a hunter looking for one gun to go from ducks to pheasant to rabbit to dear to home defence, well ya got me there.

Simplicity, I think that has been pretty well debunked. I think it takes alot more training to run the shotgun proficiently, let alone really well. Slug select drills, reloading, proper stance, malfunctions, etc all require more training then a carbine.
The video of the guy running the Benelli is impressive, but theres also one, of teh same guy I think, do a full mag dump of an AR, with no muzzle rise, also.

Cost. Yep, you can get a basic 870 or even the 870 "tactical", for about 300 bucks. But, not a Vang or SGT gun, a Benelli or a gun like Dorsai posted, is gonna start getting up there, and you can get into a basic AR for that kinda money.
Someone mentioned the cost of premium 5.56 ammo, for defeating barriers. Last time I bought a box of Brenekke slugs, they were running about 5 bucks for a box of 5, so the same dollar a round.

Looks/court. Sure if you have a blued steel and walnut, wingmaster. Otherwise, a blackgun is a blackgun. The assualt weapons ban, effected shotguns also, and a gun like Dorsai's will be seen as evil by the lib's, just like an AR.

"Stopping" power. In all my training, I've been taught to engage with a minimum of two rounds, pistol, shotgun, carbine, GPMG, HMG, etc. So I don't count on anything to stop anyone. But, I'll say, this is probably the 'gauge's" single greatest selling point. But, your gonna pay for it, and only a few rounds at the range give me a headache.

On sights, I just got the express sights for the Remington rifle sighted barrel, on Nyeti's recommendation. I went with the standard dot instead of the big dot, which may have been a mistake, but I wanted a little more precision for slug use. I mounted them, and played with them around the house, but sent the barrel to my smith to be ported and have the focing cone lengthend, Wish I had read about the porting and flite control issue first, so I have not shot those sights yet, but subjectively, they seem quicker then the standard rifle sights, way better then any bead, plain or tritium. I did have MMC's on a M1super90 I used to have, but that was along time ago, so I really cant compare the two.
It would seem the express sights are a good compromise between a cheap bead and expensive ghostrings or an Aimpoint. A new 18" IC choked rifle sighted barrel from Brownells, with the LE discount is 150 bucks, sell the barrel you have and put the express sights on, and you should be good to go.

Overall, I can't think of a situation that I would prefer a shotgun over an M4, outside of the specialty stuff like LL and breaching. Nyeti hit it on the head when he noted the overlap of the two, and its easier to force the carbine into the shotgun role, then viceversa.

Having said that, you are far from naked against the forces of evil with a good 12gauge. If your a homeowner, who never intends to leave the house with it, you'll be fine.

No pics, but my set up:
870 Police magnum
Speedfeed pistol grip short stock
Vang safety
Vang one shot mag extension
Vang mag spring and SS follower
SureFire old school forend(laser products)
Mesa 8 shot side saddle
18" IC rifle sight/express barrel tritium front and rear/ported & LFC( when I get it back)
Vickers sling

Two questions;
Dorsai, how are you liking the MESA rail?

Any one have a good way of carrying reloads on your vest? Especially for teh breaching gun.

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Really, I think a lot of us here see this debate through .mil and LEO eyes. True, a lot of us in these positions are best served by the carbine and when I go to work, I am also issued an M4 (although I like our 5 Colt 727 carbines aka GUU-5/P better being lighter weight and far more simple than the squadron's typical whistle and bell M4's) and I'm fine with that. At home, I have several ARs and my M4 is one that sits by the bed along with a USP-45. However, they sit there as second fiddle to my shotgun for home defense.
Ranges in the house are short ranges and most every report of burglaries here (and to be honest, armed intruders here has been pretty rare in the first place) has not involved more than one or maybe two bad guys max. The stopping power of the 12 gauge with 00 buck is legendary especially at close range and if the bad guy has made it back outside unscathed, you would be hard pressed to justify shooting him when he's not presenting a clear and present danger like he would be inside the house so the extended range or the complexity of a select slug drill is rather a moot point.
I totally agree that a shotgun is not a do-all weapon and today is more of a niche weapon but when that niche is for home defense be it civilian or off-duty military or LEO, that is IMHO, one very important niche that the shotgun fills in a far superior fashion than any other weapon out there be it handgun or carbine.
I think we can all cherry pick specific situations that favor one or the other. As noted many times here, for "inside" it's the heat.

But, IMHO, why limit yourself. Its often said, no one knows what the fight is going to be. Whether its multiple home invaders wearing armor, or one crack addict, the AR is still effective. Even one of the many "terror plots", you may be unlucky enough to find yourself in the middle of.

I think the carbine can be employed effectively, across a wider spectrum, with less hassle.

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Per SOP, Bob and I don't agree, but we agree as to why we don't..... Big Grin. This all goes right back to really assessing what your needs really are. My attachment to the 12ga. is fairly simple. Vehicle takedowns were my bread and butter (or crooks fleeing in or from a vehicle). Its why I set my guns up for doing select slug drills with very little effort.....but you have to practice and spend some time to make these manipulations....just like Tac Reloads..push pull, and other manipulations. The area I worked also has some of the largest enclosed buildings in the country.....which is also why having AR's was critical as well. You need to know which gun to use and when. You also need to know how to deal with a situation if you don't have the ideal weapon (AR vs. vehicle, or SGN at distance). Its all part of the reason why we train. Its the reason we spend time on a forum where nobody recommends no aiming or just rack the thing and everybody will give up and run. To run all of these systems, you need to dedicate yourself to them.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

So you have multiple BGs wearing body armor, is a 5.56mm going to be enough gun here either? Might want to step up to a 7.62 that can punch through vests with plates. Then again, some of those plates are rated to stop M-80 ball ammo too so you might want to consider stepping up to a .50 BMG for your primary home defense in the hopes that the BG wears body armor with plates and not some skinny crack head that the round punches through and into the next several houses! So now you decide to go back to the shotgun prepared for skinny crack head not wearing armor and the BG turns out to be the guy you should have had the .50 for in the first place armored up like a tank. So shoot him in the face like we train with regular failure to stop drills (that's a messy thought, failure to stop drills with a shotgun at close range! Eek ) What if that skinny crack head isn't on crack on the moment and is instead high on angel dust? Do you really want to stick with the 5.56mm here or do you want the stopping power of the 12 gauge against the guy that is likely to not pay much attention to the fact that he is now leaking from several holes?
Bottom line is that no, you can not pick the battle when it comes to you but you can look at METT-TC and decide what would be the most appropriate actions to take and with what to arm yourself with for what is most likely to come your way. For me and the area I live in based on it's past history, the shotgun here is what I want for home defense.
Nyeti,
As per SOP, we agreee more then we disagree. We have other things for vehicle takedowns, and my issued M4 will do just fine Wink

Grunt,
that's my point. If you know your shotgun is never going to leave the house, in your AO, your gtg.
My point was only, that its a bit easier to shoehorn the carbine into the shotgun role, then make the shotgun do the carbine role.

So, if I already have a carbine, and am well trained on it, have the appropriate ammo, etc. etc. why would I need a shotgun? Even for just home defense? I could just as easily use the carbine.

We can sit here and go tit for tat on scenarios, where any gun is inappropriate. Yes we can look at METT-T, and be prepared for the most likely scenario, we can also be somewhat better prepared for the worst case scenarios.

As noted, there are also ways to deal with failures of your chosen system, NSR's, failure drills, slug select drills, Nike defense etc. etc.

Based on my training and individual skill sets, my AO, and most likely adversary, in my home, or at work, I see no reason for a shotgun, outside of breaching.

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Bob,
I like the Mesa rail. I have noticed that the sidesaddle has loosened a bit with shells loaded all the time. They are a little looser than I like. Next time I shoot it I'm going to keep an eye on how much they slip under recoil. I'd rather not put them in base up as that is unergonomic for loading.

The picatinny rail works well for the optic. I tried it on my 11-87 as well and it will clear a ghost ring. With a standard stock comb height, an Aimpoint, even with a low mount, sits high. One of the mini red-dots is the right height, but I've already expressed my opinion on those if you are going to use a light.

With the pistol grip set up, the stock is in line with the barrel and it does a good job limiting muzzle rise. It also puts an Aimpoint with a low mount (Comp M3) at just the right height. An eotech will work too, but.....

With an Aimpoint, I have decided to forgo iron sights.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

Dorsai, I hate to be the one to tell you this......The bases of the shells should be up....the way you are doing it is the un-ergonomic way. I'll need to figure out some way to do some photo's or something on how a "Metro Reload" is done.

LAPD found that under hard use, with the hulls down, rounds would fall out of the side saddles (this was an issue for Metro during long gunfights during the LA Riots). The guys at LAPD METRO devised a means of manipulating the rounds from the base up position that is far more efficient and positive, than when the bases were down.

You need to get down here for a shotgun class with Scott Reitz. Its one of the few good things in SoCal.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Nyeti,
Get on that, I'd be very interested in seeing it.
One of our older LT's, talks about "uncle Scotty" all the time, from back when he was heavily involved with our training. When I did the shotgun portion of training at ABQ, we didn't have sidesaddles, so even if there was any residual training of his left, we didn't get it on reloading from the saddle.
We did shoot skeet with rifle sights and 00buck, though.

I leave my mesa saddle loaded, and brass down, I havent noticed any significant loss of tension. I've read that it is an issue, but simply taking the rubber retention strip out, and leaving it in the sun, or replacing it fixes it.
Either way, I'd rather not deal with it. So, I guess I'll have to go brass up.

Bob

----------------------------

"Good landing, good fight, and good luck" James M. Gavin 09Jul43

 "they say if it works, it's a good tactic...I say anything can work once" 

Can you offer some details on the class? I can get to SoCal so its a possible.

-------------------------

Mark

Swear allegiance to the flag Whatever flag they offer

Never hint at what you really feel

Teach the children quietly For some day sons and daughters

Will rise up and fight while we stood still

 

Joined:  2/24/2003                          Location:  Nevada, USA

I checked the website...here is the next class for shotgun:

http://www.internationaltactic..._detail.asp?CSID=433

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

Second newb question.

Pistol grip or straight stock?

NOT Pistol grip ONLY, I mean a real shoulder stock, but one with a pistol grip and one without.

Personally I think I prefer the straight stock, but I'd like to hear from those in the know.

"Run by duffers.....they tend to amplify mistakes." " It a very cool, very fun, very awesome piece of shit."

 

Location Cape Town, South Africa

 

I like a straight stock for field work or a general purpose gun, and the pistol grip for working indoors.

"If I had a Grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton"

Let those who love the LORD hate evil. The one who guards the lives of his godly ones will rescue them from the power of wicked people. Psalms 97:10 Trooper Troy Duncan-EOW 5-19-84 Deputy Erik Jon Telen-EOW 8-21-2001

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